Prospect HD and nanoFlash at DVinfo.net

Alex Raskin · July 1st, 2009, 09:52 PM

Does v4 of Prospect HD read/convert nanoFlash mxf files?

David Newman · July 1st, 2009, 10:10 PM

No, unfortunately it uses Sony encoder chip that produces bitstreams we require us to write a new MXF parser (and maybe more) for this one product only. The Sony directshow demux works, but they will not license it out (I don't know why.) We have no plans to reinvent this wheel, so no support until Sony makes the demux more available. I don't understand why camera company makes new bit-streams and puts up road blocks to prevent people using them. This is not Convergent Design's fault issue, they just feel into the trap of using the Sony encoder.

Alex Raskin · July 1st, 2009, 11:00 PM

I see.

Is there a workaround to still convert nanoFlash's mxf into Cineform AVI on PC? Maybe via some intermediate step?

Thanks.

Bill Ravens · July 2nd, 2009, 06:32 AM

Alex..

I'm facing this same issue. Here's a workaround:
There's a number of disembedder or demux software apps that will separate the video and audio tracks from the Sony MXF codec. I'm using Amberfin's MXFDesktop. FFMPEG is freeware that will also work. Once split out into m2v video file, Cineform's HDLINK will easily make the conversion to the DI.

Unfortunately, MXFDesktop outputs an .aes audio file. I have not been able to convert the .aes file into anything readable, like .wav. So, I need to read the C-D MXF with an NLE and export the audio files. Then import the Cineform DI, video file only, and overwrite the non-cineform m2v in my nle.

Does this help?

Alex Raskin · July 2nd, 2009, 09:26 AM

Thanks Bill.

My NLE is PPro 2 (don't laugh...), and it does not accept mxf files at all, so I couldn't do sound separately in it as per your suggestion.

Any other third party applications that could be used?

Bill Ravens · July 2nd, 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

Thanks Bill.

My NLE is PPro 2 (don't laugh...), and it does not accept mxf files at all, so I couldn't do sound separately in it as per your suggestion.

Any other third party applications that could be used?

I'm still looking for an app to do the audio conversion. FFMPEG will do the demux, but, FFMPEG won't do the audio right, either. The only PC based NLE converters that I know will work are Avid and Edius. Vegas won't read the audio files, but, will read the video. Procoder3 will read 50 and 100 Mbps mxf files, but, not 140 or 160 mbps. Haven't tried I-frame only.

Bill Ravens · July 2nd, 2009, 08:35 PM

VOILA!!!

The aes codec can be transcoded to standard WAV by the Mainconcept Reference, available as a free DEMO download at MainConcept: MainConcept

While the free DEMO download adds a watermark to the video, an audio file can be output, free of encumbrances.

Peter Beeh · July 3rd, 2009, 02:27 AM

I have the same problems with my 50mbps 422 sony mxfs. I bought a copy of Vegas as it supports the Sony XDCam system so well.
But I've been pondering ways of getting cineform back into the mix in a practical fashion so that so I can work with 10 bit files, first light and so on.
I found a batch converter script written by vaast called gear shift (c. $50). It plugs into Vegas 9 and will batch convert any file supported by Vegas (including 50mbps XDCam 422 sony mxf) files into cineform files. I have not yet tested exhaustively, so there may still be a pit fall in there somewhere.
If vegas supports the nanoflash 100mbps variant, then it should work also.
Alas, this is not a cheap solution if you don't already own Vegas 9.

Bill Ravens · July 3rd, 2009, 07:01 AM

Peter...

At this point in time, Vegas does not support the audio demux in the Sony XDCAM422 codec.
Unfortunately, Vegas does not have a 10-bit pipeline. As I understand how it works, everything coming into Vegas is converted to 8-bit.

Alex Raskin · July 3rd, 2009, 08:02 AM

All this makes one wish for the nanoFlash capturing directly to Cineform :/

Alex Raskin · July 3rd, 2009, 08:06 AM

Oh, and I tried SUPER encoder and it was able to read and transcode 100mbs mxf files that I have downloaded fron nanoFlash examples page.

1. There was no sound - but then i don't know whether the original files had sound or not. C-D recommends Sony viewer which I have installed on my Win x64 system, but it does not initialize correctly when starting... so there's no independent way for me to view the original mxf files before transcoding

2. SUPER does not seem to have Cineform listed as output option. I had to transcode to M-JPEG avi, which seemed the highest quality SUPER offers. This kind of defeats the purpose since it is not Cineform... so yet another step is required...

Bill Ravens · July 3rd, 2009, 08:13 AM

I tried the super encoder, as well. It demuxed the video tack but failed on the audio tracks.

Peter Moretti · July 3rd, 2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Peter...

At this point in time, Vegas does not support the audio demux in the Sony XDCAM422 codec.
Unfortunately, Vegas does not have a 10-bit pipeline. As I understand how it works, everything coming into Vegas is converted to 8-bit.

Bill,

So Red, 12-bit linear, and DNxHD 220x and Cineform 4:2:2, 10-bit linear, are truncated/rounded to 8 bits? Even when processing effects and rendering? This isn't just a display limitation?

I'm just surprised. I realize that Vegas can handle just about any format and output in Cineon and DPX, but if it only works in 8-bits, then such an advantage has less appeal.

Bill Ravens · July 3rd, 2009, 01:21 PM

Peter...

My understanding is that vegas has an 8-bit Input and 8-bit output pipeline, unless output is via the Sony 10-bit YUV codec, which, for me, doesn't interface with anything but Vegas. VfW(Video for Windows) is an 8-bit engine, I know that for sure. Vegas works only in VfW, and converts all YUV input to RGB on import. This is one of the biggest, if not the biggest drawback to vegas. In between the I/O there is higher than 8-bit processing, for example in color correction filters, but, many of the filters are only 8-bit. Perhaps Ed Troxel, or someone, can step in and be a little clearer than my comprehension.

July 1st, 2009, 09:52 PM	#1
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Prospect HD and nanoFlash Does v4 of Prospect HD read/convert nanoFlash mxf files?

July 1st, 2009, 10:10 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	No, unfortunately it uses Sony encoder chip that produces bitstreams we require us to write a new MXF parser (and maybe more) for this one product only. The Sony directshow demux works, but they will not license it out (I don't know why.) We have no plans to reinvent this wheel, so no support until Sony makes the demux more available. I don't understand why camera company makes new bit-streams and puts up road blocks to prevent people using them. This is not Convergent Design's fault issue, they just feel into the trap of using the Sony encoder. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 3rd, 2009, 02:27 AM	#8
Peter Beeh Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 52	I have the same problems with my 50mbps 422 sony mxfs. I bought a copy of Vegas as it supports the Sony XDCam system so well. But I've been pondering ways of getting cineform back into the mix in a practical fashion so that so I can work with 10 bit files, first light and so on. I found a batch converter script written by vaast called gear shift (c. $50). It plugs into Vegas 9 and will batch convert any file supported by Vegas (including 50mbps XDCam 422 sony mxf) files into cineform files. I have not yet tested exhaustively, so there may still be a pit fall in there somewhere. If vegas supports the nanoflash 100mbps variant, then it should work also. Alas, this is not a cheap solution if you don't already own Vegas 9. __________________ Peter Beeh, Lighting Camera/DOP www.peterbeeh.com.au

July 3rd, 2009, 07:01 AM	#9
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Peter... At this point in time, Vegas does not support the audio demux in the Sony XDCAM422 codec. Unfortunately, Vegas does not have a 10-bit pipeline. As I understand how it works, everything coming into Vegas is converted to 8-bit. Last edited by Bill Ravens; July 3rd, 2009 at 07:32 AM.

July 1st, 2009, 11:00 PM	#3
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	I see. Is there a workaround to still convert nanoFlash's mxf into Cineform AVI on PC? Maybe via some intermediate step? Thanks.

July 2nd, 2009, 06:32 AM	#4
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Alex.. I'm facing this same issue. Here's a workaround: There's a number of disembedder or demux software apps that will separate the video and audio tracks from the Sony MXF codec. I'm using Amberfin's MXFDesktop. FFMPEG is freeware that will also work. Once split out into m2v video file, Cineform's HDLINK will easily make the conversion to the DI. Unfortunately, MXFDesktop outputs an .aes audio file. I have not been able to convert the .aes file into anything readable, like .wav. So, I need to read the C-D MXF with an NLE and export the audio files. Then import the Cineform DI, video file only, and overwrite the non-cineform m2v in my nle. Does this help?

July 2nd, 2009, 09:26 AM	#5
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Thanks Bill. My NLE is PPro 2 (don't laugh...), and it does not accept mxf files at all, so I couldn't do sound separately in it as per your suggestion. Any other third party applications that could be used?

July 2nd, 2009, 08:35 PM	#7
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	VOILA!!! The aes codec can be transcoded to standard WAV by the Mainconcept Reference, available as a free DEMO download at MainConcept: MainConcept While the free DEMO download adds a watermark to the video, an audio file can be output, free of encumbrances.

July 3rd, 2009, 08:02 AM	#10
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	All this makes one wish for the nanoFlash capturing directly to Cineform :/

July 3rd, 2009, 08:06 AM	#11
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Oh, and I tried SUPER encoder and it was able to read and transcode 100mbs mxf files that I have downloaded fron nanoFlash examples page. 1. There was no sound - but then i don't know whether the original files had sound or not. C-D recommends Sony viewer which I have installed on my Win x64 system, but it does not initialize correctly when starting... so there's no independent way for me to view the original mxf files before transcoding 2. SUPER does not seem to have Cineform listed as output option. I had to transcode to M-JPEG avi, which seemed the highest quality SUPER offers. This kind of defeats the purpose since it is not Cineform... so yet another step is required...

July 3rd, 2009, 08:13 AM	#12
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I tried the super encoder, as well. It demuxed the video tack but failed on the audio tracks.

July 3rd, 2009, 01:21 PM	#14
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Peter... My understanding is that vegas has an 8-bit Input and 8-bit output pipeline, unless output is via the Sony 10-bit YUV codec, which, for me, doesn't interface with anything but Vegas. VfW(Video for Windows) is an 8-bit engine, I know that for sure. Vegas works only in VfW, and converts all YUV input to RGB on import. This is one of the biggest, if not the biggest drawback to vegas. In between the I/O there is higher than 8-bit processing, for example in color correction filters, but, many of the filters are only 8-bit. Perhaps Ed Troxel, or someone, can step in and be a little clearer than my comprehension.