5D footage coverted via Neoscene won't sync with Z5 native
 

Hi, i shoot using a Sony HVR-Z5 and a Canon 5DMK2. I convert the 5D to AVI using Neoscene, and edit the Z5 HDV without converting.

The problem i have encountered is that the converted 5D footage is out of sync with the Z5 footage. I edit both using Sony Vegas Pro. Both cameras shoot at 25FPS and a shutter speed of 50FPS.

Why is the converted 5D footage drifting out of sync? It is as if Neoscene is adjusting the length of the file.

I have contacted Cineform and they are next to useless. Slow to respond, and not able to help so far. Not the service I am used to from software companies.

Neoscene is fine if you want to edit 5D footage on its own, but so far it appears to be utterly crap for syncing two cameras.

There isn't anything that i can change on the Neoscene settings before converting, this is extremely frustrating and I would not purchase another Cineform product again based purely on the lack of 'customer service'.

When i contacted Cineform i was told to post on here for advice..... how about Cneform actually give a paying client some feedback on what is wrong with their product?

Anyone on here encountered similar conversion issues? Any info or advice would be appreciated!

There is most likely nothing wrong with software, that is why support kindly directed you here -- although not to complain about them as that will not help you get your issue solved. You will find member here are generally positive about support.

If both source are captured at 25p, flagged at 25p, and the software is not dropping frames (which it doesn't do without a corruption in the source) the only way they can get out of sync is if the clock in the two camera sources are off (yes that does happen.) You forgot to mention the percentage of drift, from that so much can be determined.

I do appreciate you responding, though I will point out that as a public forum that i am entitled to come on here and share my experiences, good and bad, with others. My recent experience with Cineform 'support' is that it has been lazy at best and downright unhelpful at worst. Should my experience improve and the issues I have encountered become resolved I will be only too happy to come on this forum and share this with others.

Regarding the sync issue, i don;t understand what you mean by the clock sync. I convert the 5D footage to AVI, put it on the timeline on a separate track below Z5 footage and manually sync. As is stated to your support previously, the native 5D footage syncs with the 5D footage....... so it appears the clock is fine. The reason i use Neoscene is that Vegas Pro 9 freezes/crashes if i try to natively edit long 5D files.

So, to summarise, the 5D/Z5 footage syncs just fine if native files are used. When converted to AVI, the 5D files have been stretched. It seems to be quite clear that it is Neoscene causing this as it is Neoscene which creates the AVI file...... or am i missing something obvious here???

The reason I didn't advise you the % of drift is that I was never asked, however I will check this and get back to you.

Your advice about the above would be appreciated. I would also be grateful if you would elaborate about the clock sync you have briefly mentioned.

Hi, Jonathon. I'll jump in and give you the down and dirty clock sync explanation.

Each camera has an "internal clock" that it uses to base its timecode/frames per second on. Not all of those clocks are perfectly precise so they don't always match perfectly. It's like setting two wall clocks to exactly 12am and two hours later you find that one is 1 second slower than the other. That's what it's like to have two cameras shooting the same event for and hour. You can sync the first part of the footage perfectly in the beginning but by the end of the hour you may find that sync has drifted by a second or two. It happens quite often when mixing camera.

Now your problem is different because you said that the unconverted footage syncs fine between the two cameras but the converted footage doesn't. Can't say I've ever run into that issue with Cineform. Sounds like something is slightly modifying the frame rate during encode. To me that suggests that something in the metadata of the 5D clip is telling HDLink to encode it at a strange frame rate.

How bad a drift is it? Are you talking a second or two after an hour or is it worse than that?

Thanks for your reply Chad, much appreciated. The sync is out by approx. half a second over 3 minutes. The Z5 records constantly, while the 5D is recording cutaways of a few seconds, sometimes of a few minutes. I've never recorded a clip on the 5D of more than 5 minutes, yet this sync issue is really annoying.

If, and i'm not convinced this is the problem, but if it is, how is the clock issue fixed? How do I check the clock, do i need to send the camera to Canon?

Will Cineform be able to assist at all? Not convinced there is a clock problem when it seems that Cineform conversion is the issue - however I am happy to listen to what folks have to say.

Thanks again Chad.

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out Plural Eyes. I have a similar problem with my Zoom H2 audio recorder (which isn't known for it's accurate clocking):

Singular Software

Jonathon,

This is not a CineForm problem, we don't make frames go faster or slower (technically not possible.) The only exception is a old non-firmware upgraded 5D mk2 which shoot at the incorrect 30.0, we do fix that and flag the frame rate as 29.97 (we didn'y do a frame in interpolation all the same frames are there, but presented at the correct video rate.) You can use interpret frame rate if you want to incorrect 30.0 rate. If you haven't upgraded you camera firmware please do so as that is the cause of you problem. You can't mix 30p and 29.97p sources and expect correct sync.

Ah-ha! That's what we have going on...

Jonathan, David knows his stuff. Once you upgrade your 5D firmware you shouldn't have this issue again. But there is no real "fix" for the footage you've already recorded.

Here's what I'd do. Since your 5D stuff is basically cutaway footage, I'd edit each clip with sync in the beginning then use your NLE's speed correction to slow the footage just a touch until the sync is close enough. This is a common work around for people using cameras with clock sync issues. At least it is for me.

About clock sync. First, that's not your real problem here. Your problem is that the 5D is recording at a different frame rate than the Z5. That should be fixed with the 5D firmware upgrade. You shouldn't have to send the camera in to Canon.

Second, there's no real fix to clock sync issues. High end camera systems have Jam Sync capabilities that force all cameras to us the same clock. That's how the big boys do it. We little guys have to find those work arounds.

Thanks for the replies. I live and work in the UK and have the latest firmware. The footage on the 5d is all recorded at 25 fps, not 30 fps. I live in PAL land. Does Cineform convert my PAL footage to 25 fps AVI or is it being changed to a different frame rate? Is neoscene designed for NTSC and changing my files because it thinks they are NTSC files?

Jonathon, the file would say it was altered and we don't alter 25p sources. Just read the frame in the NLE, it should say 25.0, if it doesn't that is the cause of your issue.

I have QT player installed and the files, both the original 5D file and the AVI conversion state '25 FPS' when I right click the file and check its details.

Then you should see that they are in sync (other than camera clock issue as stated above,) as that number is the only thing that controls the playback framerate, not the image data. Place source and cineform files on two tracks of a timeline, set the opacity to 50%. Now look for missing frames -- the only way that can get out of sync. My guess now is you 5D's flash card is dropping frames, I've seen that -- you may need to switch brand. We convert all the frame presented, the MOV source may just pause on dropped frame, this capture error may cause the issues you are seeing (this has not been confirmed, just that I'm also a Canon DSLR shoot and some flash media doesn't work perfectly in these cameras -- I've stop using one CF Card for dropped frame issues.)

Thanks for the info David. What cards do you recommend - I've been using Sandisk Extreme 3 cards and never seem to have any issues with them?

Need to first confirm you have dropped frames. The Sandisk Extreme 3 are rated at x133 which should be fast enough (in theory,) yet I've been using a range of card rated at x233 and x266, some brands work some don't.

David and all, please red through the answer #3 again

Jonathan sates that if he uses native clips then the sync is fine - the only problem is with NEO converted files. Also he states the files become longer than originals (5D original mov - as far as I understand) about half a second (12frames) for 3minutes (4500frames) that equals about 0.2% what is weird because it is twice more than than 30.00 to 29.97 (0.1%) slow down. Even then when Cineform would mess up frame-rate tag it cannot still make the file longer if the frame rate stays the same! I have seen a problem where the FPS is 24.89999 from SI camera some time ago - maybe something similar?

Quite a bit of these nasty arguments could be avoided if we all would read carefully what other people write and sometimes would answer emails and support request in timely manner.

NB! Just to recap if somebody cross-reads this again, this has nothing to with camera clock if the original files are correct in editing application.

NBB! Also patiently waiting cineform to squash a mac bug regarding SI2K footage...

Thank You
-Kaspar

jonathan is going to send me some sample files from each of the cameras. i'm hoping to reproduce the issue here in the cineform offices by comparing the 2 converted files. if we do find that there's a sync issue with the converted files, we'll certainly look into what is causing that... and offer a solution. : )

This is a known issue.

I initially tested and confirmed with Cineform - even Tech support has confirmed. Any product using HDlink will cut off frames at beginning and end of clips. Audio is also not in sync - I have since sold my Cineform NeoScene License for this very reason - response from Cineform Tech support - edit native m2t footage until they come up with a solution.

That's not good enough IMO.

DNxHD intermediates are frame accurate rendered with MPEG Stream Clip using the MPEG-2 reader for QT and m2t files I'm working with.

This doesn't work for AVCHD clips - use TEMPEnc to get your DNxHD Intermediates from MTS clips - it's a better solution IMO - and truly cross platform.

Tested and confirmed over 2 days of testing.

I may be causing a confusion with this comment but here goes anyway.

My personal preference is to convert all camera sources to the one filetype and not mix different file types in the one project.

If I read correctly, the Canon 5D footage was converted, the other camera Z5 HDV footage was left as a native camera file, m2t I guess.

this could be a different issue, cliff. its true i was able to confirm your issue with the sample files you provided. however, your files were converted from the Z7U. jonathan's files are converted from 5D. No one else is reporting conversion issues with the 5D and we have thousands of users converting these files. what i'd like to find out, is if there is something unique to the 25fps files that jonathan is shooting and the way hdlink is converting them. i'd love to compare these to the original 5D mov and the Z5 clips. then we can confirm/deny that this is the same issue.

Used to be my workflow, too.

But it seems that the latest Premiere CS5 now allows for freer mixing of the different file types without the usual trouble that'd persist in the earlier NLE versions.

/more confusion...

I'm currently editing another shoot and, after further analysis I can advise you of the following. My Z5 and 5D video footage sync perfectly over a 12 minute clip. The Cineform file does not sync. I have all 3 on the timeline and the Cineform file is visually and audibly out of sync. The Z5 (HDV) and 5D (Mov) files sync perfectly frame by frame for the full 12 minutes. So no clock issues here.

I have also noticed that the audio is a MAJOR problem here. The audio on the converted Neoscene clip is totally out of sync with the video in THE SAME CLIP..... this is odd and basically renders the software useless to me unless a Cineform can resolve this matter.

I have requested FTP details to send these large files for analysis, unfortunatley Cineform don;t have working FTP, so I am perplexed as to how this matter can be addressed!

I'm gonna look at other solutions and perhaps get a refund if Cineform can;t resolve this matter, i don;t have the time or will power to spend much more time using this software.

Use yousendit.com . There are many services to send large amounts of data, as this is not happening generally, we know your sources will tell us why.

yousendit.com is limited to files under 2GB - the files i am happy to send are 12 minutes long and therefore larger than 2GB. I tried your FTP last night (after being told you didn;t have a FTP server which was available) and I got up this morning to find the server at your end had closed the connection. Not very useful.

Also, Jake has advised he is trying to replicate the problem with a 7D and v5 of Neoscene. I use a 5D and v4 of Neoscene. I appreciate Jake is trying to assist but i think that the key here is viewing my original files.

When you see the converted file and compare to the originals you will see what I mean. I would hope that you will then offer some kind of way of putting the matter right as Jake suggested in a previous post. Or refund my money?

Some words of advice for you Jonathan.

Since there are many thousands of users of Cineform's products and they have a very good track record of working through bugs and user problems, I'd suggest that if your workflow permits, you would do yourself and others a service by showing a bit of patience and helping to identify where the problems actually lay.

You will be hard-pressed to find any other company where the CTO of the company is helping a single user discover his or her problems! Cineform certainly wants happy users too, and believe me, there are many thousands that have used this forum that fall in that category.

Thanks for your advice, but I think i have been very patient. I am not really interested in how Cineform have dealt with others, only how they respond to the issues i have encountered, which to date have been below my expectations and below the level I have experienced with other software companies.

One thing i will also point out to you and anyone else reading this forum is that although I have encountered issues with other software, those issues are ALWAYS down to me not liking the usability of that software. Maybe i have just been lucky, but i have never encountered an issue where the actual software doesn't do what it is supposed to.

This issue with Neoscene is the first problem i have ever encountered where it si a problem with the actual software. Like I say, maybe i'm just lucky, or perhaps I just use software which works properly - time will tell.

Also, some of the responses, or lack of them, from Cineform have been disappointing.

But i am hoping that they will resolve this isssue as the software, when working properly, will help my workflow. Sadly at the moment this software, for me, does the opposite.

So again, thanks for your response, but I think I'll make up my own mind about Cineform.

Hey Jonathon. I think you are right about making your own mind based on your own experience. Maybe Steven just tried to encourage you by saying that most of the time Cineform comes through brilliantly - which certainly has been my own experience as well. Have hope.

Please try sending shorter files, or is the fault only in 12 minute captures? We really can't do anything without seeing your source files as they are showing the issue, not other files from other cameras. We can't reproduce the error here, nor can others. Have you tried NeoScene v5, as there is no v4 version, I guess you mean v1.4? If NeoScene v5 solves your issue then we will get you a free upgrade.

It's either Neoscene 1.3 or 1.4, can't tell from the HD Link interface. No matter, I do know it's not V5.

Just been checking the file and this may help further: the video in the Cineform file syncs perfectly, its the audio which is fooked. The audio track isn't grouped to the video, and the audio is now longer than the video. So the conversion of the audio is the probelm, the video is fine.

the reason I haven't noted this before is that all my Cineform footage was used for cutaways during wedding speeches and vows, so it wasn't essential to sync the video as much as the audio - I could get away with the visual part being out of sync. However the current edit includes video of a band singing, and within a few frames you can see the audio going out of sync, even on the Cineform file alone! When I sync the cineform video track from the 5D to the video track of the Z5, all is well and stays in sync,even over a 12 minute clip. It's the audio which is the issue.

I am happy to try V5 David - can i trial this without unistalling my current version? If V5 works then an upgrade would be appreciated and alot less hassle than uploading files, big files, over FTP.

I'm curious if the issue you see is one I've seen in the past. Where the the audio was out exactly 6 frames. And you can't line it up either at the head or the tail because it's actually truncated. It appeared to me, if I remember correctly, that the audio was truncated, and then padded so that it was longer than the original, but not in sync if placed head to head with the video or tail to tail with the video.

What is your level of CFHD compression?

It looks like, depending on PC resources, audio can slip against video at higher quality level.

I just experienced that on two files that I was recording by SI2K camera in Quality 4 RAW (equivalent to Filmscan 2, I think.)

Do you still get audio going out of sync if you convert your files into CFHD Filmscan 1? Or High?

I've not checked how many frames out this is, but yes your description is correct. If i align the audio/video at the start it drifts out of sync, and the audio track is longer than the video track. If i get one frame in sync then its guaranteed the rest are out of sync eventually.

CFHD is set to high quality. See atched JPEG for screenshot of Vegas (see audio is longer than video) and you can also see Neoscene settings.

...and at the time of CFHD conversion of your High setting, what is the CPU utilization?

I verified and posted this thread back on June 28th raising this very issue.

No matter what setting I used, there are sync issues - I tested a full weekend with various clips and settings from different cameras and source footage - using straight m2t without scene splitting and/or capture and convert on the fly to CF AVI - Low, Medium or high - it didn't matter.

It doesn't matter if it's tape or solid state acquired content - there are sync issues.

This has been a known issue since that time and others are now beginning to experience the same thing.

When I was told to edit native compressed footage by CF Tech support - My jaw dropped.

I no longer use Cineform for all the above reasons.

"...and at the time of CFHD conversion of your High setting, what is the CPU utilization?"

Not sure, I'm not doing a conversion at the moment. Why would that matter though? Even a 8 core PC would surely utilize 100%. FYI, i'm using a quad core i7 preocessor with 8 GB ram and windows 7 64 bit pro.

This is a reasonable spec PC, over the minimum spec for Neoscene (I asked Jake about this last November). Even if the CPU is at 100%, it shouldn't cause this issue, should it? otherwise why does every NLE render perfectly synced video/audio, regardless of CPU load? Higher CPU load = longer processing time, it should not mean out of sync audio/video!

Cliff, your post makes very interesting reading. Even more so is David Newman's response. David, you are overly defensive of your product and the response you gave to me was very similar - it must be anything and everythign other than Neoscene causing the problem.

This is very disappointing to read.

Cliff, I understand you no longer use Cineform products. I'd be grateful if you would advise how you overcame this issue? What software do you recommend?

Thanks for you input, it's been helpful and enlightening.

Jonathon - contact me via PM to answer your question.

Off-topic, but I really would like to say that David Newman in fact is the most objective CTO I've encountered.

Of course he is biased towards Cineform :)

But I did notice that he is in fact listening to people. I can speculate that between his extremely busy managerial and technical tasks, direct support via forums may be overwhelming for him - but I see that he is still trying his best... for years now.

Just my experience.

Thanks for your input Alex.... any chance of you updating me about the relevance of CPU utilisation that you queried previously?

You are welcome...

I saw that with CPU utilization approaching 100%, audio does slip out of sync on 5min sequences and longer - but that was with Intel Xeon processors. I know this dates me :)

When I either overclocked or upgraded CPU, with utilization around 70-80%, I did not see any audio slippage.

This may or may not be applicable nowadays...