Color and luminance shift during conversion at DVinfo.net

Marc Salvatore · February 27th, 2011, 04:16 PM

I am converting some Z1 HDV footage (captured in Vegas over firewire) with HDLink to 1920x1080 Cineform, high quality, interlaced.

The resulting footage when compared to the original in Vegas has a slight luminance drop and a shift towards green. Is this normal? I'm using the latest release of NEO HD 5.

Thank you, Marc

John Cline · February 27th, 2011, 11:59 PM

I've noticed this, too.

Marc Salvatore · March 1st, 2011, 03:24 PM

John,

I filed a ticket and they are looking into it. I'll let you know.

Marc Salvatore · March 1st, 2011, 07:21 PM

John,

Just got a message that they found the problem and it will be fixed in the next build. Cineform has amazing customer service!

John Cline · March 2nd, 2011, 05:43 PM

Great! This is good news, the slight green shift has been there for a while. I'm curious now whether this has been an encoding or a decoding issue.

David Newman · March 2nd, 2011, 09:48 PM

It is a decoding issue, that was accidentally introduced back in August '10 when we added the uncompressed modes to the CineDeck capture/player. It only impact YUV I-frame encoding, and it is subtle. Existing files will not need to be re-encoded once 5.3.2 is out.

John Cline · March 3rd, 2011, 03:16 AM

This, too, is great news. I have a LOT of Cineform encoded footage!

John Cline · March 9th, 2011, 02:58 PM

I just heard that Cineform now considers this a "low priority" fix, well it's not a low priority for me! This bug affects image quality and image quality is why I bought Neo HD in the first place.

Laurence Kingston · March 9th, 2011, 03:43 PM

Anything like this that is related to quality will keep me from using this until it is fixed. Any idea of a timeframe for this fix?

Marc Salvatore · March 9th, 2011, 03:58 PM

I upgraded to NEO HD 5 so I could use it in Vegas 10 on a project that needs a large amount of HDV footage converted to 1920x1080. I'm not really comfortable with getting a green shift on all of the footage during conversion. Seems like a quality hit to me. I hope this gets fixed soon so I can use the product as intended.

David Newman · March 9th, 2011, 04:18 PM

The luminance bug is fixed, there is no longer a codec issue. This is why posting half information from support is not all that helpful. The remaining issue is related to the 1440x1080 to 1920x1080 upscale in HDLink, that is not new as it is always been that way, and is really minor. We had not noticed this shift until the the other bug was discovered. I expect that it would never have been reported/discovered if it wasn't for the now fixed error. You don't need to use the upscale, and you have upscale in the NLE if needed, so it is only a convience feature (plus if you use FirstLight it completely doesn't matter.) This is why it is reasonable to be lower priority that other items on our plate.

Marc Salvatore · March 9th, 2011, 05:29 PM

My complaint from the start was color shift when resizing. When support told me they fixed it I tried it again and found it was still a problem. When I asked them to make sure they were resizing they confirmed that was the problem. Guess I'll need to consider another workflow without resizing because the shift is more than minor to me.

Marc

David Newman · March 9th, 2011, 06:05 PM

Really? I even can't see on a waveform display for my HDV images. The reason we thought we found it was we did tiny a small shift in the decoder -- with the decode we can ran it through a 100 generation to make shifts more visible, as the first generation was not obvious. So we have fixed the issue for 99.9% of users.

Marc Salvatore · March 9th, 2011, 06:22 PM

It's the shift to green I'm concerned about. The luminance issue is not a big deal to me. I will just not scale at this point since that fixes the issue.

David Newman · March 9th, 2011, 06:31 PM

I'm having a difficult time seeing the green shift, an invisible error is harder to fix. I think Jake as a test example from you as my HDV clips don't do it.

February 27th, 2011, 04:16 PM	#1
Marc Salvatore Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Medford, OR Posts: 351	Color and luminance shift during conversion I am converting some Z1 HDV footage (captured in Vegas over firewire) with HDLink to 1920x1080 Cineform, high quality, interlaced. The resulting footage when compared to the original in Vegas has a slight luminance drop and a shift towards green. Is this normal? I'm using the latest release of NEO HD 5. Thank you, Marc

February 27th, 2011, 11:59 PM	#2
John Cline Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 333	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion I've noticed this, too.

March 1st, 2011, 03:24 PM	#3
Marc Salvatore Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Medford, OR Posts: 351	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion John, I filed a ticket and they are looking into it. I'll let you know.

March 1st, 2011, 07:21 PM	#4
Marc Salvatore Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Medford, OR Posts: 351	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion John, Just got a message that they found the problem and it will be fixed in the next build. Cineform has amazing customer service!

March 2nd, 2011, 05:43 PM	#5
John Cline Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 333	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion Great! This is good news, the slight green shift has been there for a while. I'm curious now whether this has been an encoding or a decoding issue.

March 2nd, 2011, 09:48 PM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion It is a decoding issue, that was accidentally introduced back in August '10 when we added the uncompressed modes to the CineDeck capture/player. It only impact YUV I-frame encoding, and it is subtle. Existing files will not need to be re-encoded once 5.3.2 is out. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 3rd, 2011, 03:16 AM	#7
John Cline Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 333	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion This, too, is great news. I have a LOT of Cineform encoded footage!

March 9th, 2011, 02:58 PM	#8
John Cline Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 333	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion I just heard that Cineform now considers this a "low priority" fix, well it's not a low priority for me! This bug affects image quality and image quality is why I bought Neo HD in the first place.

March 9th, 2011, 03:43 PM	#9
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion Anything like this that is related to quality will keep me from using this until it is fixed. Any idea of a timeframe for this fix?

March 9th, 2011, 03:58 PM	#10
Marc Salvatore Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Medford, OR Posts: 351	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion I upgraded to NEO HD 5 so I could use it in Vegas 10 on a project that needs a large amount of HDV footage converted to 1920x1080. I'm not really comfortable with getting a green shift on all of the footage during conversion. Seems like a quality hit to me. I hope this gets fixed soon so I can use the product as intended.

March 9th, 2011, 04:18 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion The luminance bug is fixed, there is no longer a codec issue. This is why posting half information from support is not all that helpful. The remaining issue is related to the 1440x1080 to 1920x1080 upscale in HDLink, that is not new as it is always been that way, and is really minor. We had not noticed this shift until the the other bug was discovered. I expect that it would never have been reported/discovered if it wasn't for the now fixed error. You don't need to use the upscale, and you have upscale in the NLE if needed, so it is only a convience feature (plus if you use FirstLight it completely doesn't matter.) This is why it is reasonable to be lower priority that other items on our plate. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 9th, 2011, 05:29 PM	#12
Marc Salvatore Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Medford, OR Posts: 351	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion My complaint from the start was color shift when resizing. When support told me they fixed it I tried it again and found it was still a problem. When I asked them to make sure they were resizing they confirmed that was the problem. Guess I'll need to consider another workflow without resizing because the shift is more than minor to me. Marc

March 9th, 2011, 06:05 PM	#13
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion Really? I even can't see on a waveform display for my HDV images. The reason we thought we found it was we did tiny a small shift in the decoder -- with the decode we can ran it through a 100 generation to make shifts more visible, as the first generation was not obvious. So we have fixed the issue for 99.9% of users. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 9th, 2011, 06:22 PM	#14
Marc Salvatore Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Medford, OR Posts: 351	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion It's the shift to green I'm concerned about. The luminance issue is not a big deal to me. I will just not scale at this point since that fixes the issue.

March 9th, 2011, 06:31 PM	#15
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Color and luminance shift during conversion I'm having a difficult time seeing the green shift, an invisible error is harder to fix. I think Jake as a test example from you as my HDV clips don't do it. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman