Major Problem with Timecode at DVinfo.net

Dmitry Kitsov · February 24th, 2012, 12:43 AM

Hello there seems to be a major problem with Cineform HDLink handling the re-wrapping of cineform .mov into cineform .avi. Doing so strips the clips of any meaningful time-code (on my system each file becomes Start TC 00000000) This pretty much precludes any use of cineform codec in a pro finishing environment. Is it a bug? Is it by design? What do I do?

David Newman · February 24th, 2012, 08:25 PM

AVI don't have a standard widely unused mechanism for storing timecode, so we store the timecode in the sample (compressed frame.) Inside tools like Premiere Pro we extract the timecode directly. I gather you are not using Premiere, which NLE are you losing the timecode in?

Dmitry Kitsov · February 25th, 2012, 01:46 AM

Actually time-code is lost during the cineform quicklime .mov file to a cineform.avi file re-wrapping in HDLink. The time-code becomes something arbitrary but the same for all of the files re-wrapped or simply 00000000. This is affecting metadata display in Premiere Pro, AE, etc. and, more critically, makes the files not usable with applications that depend on the time-code explicitly (ie DaVinci Resolve being fed cineform.mov in the end of the pipeline).
When not using a re-wrapping with HDLink but using Adobe Media Encoder which of course re-encodes the files rather than non destructively re-wrapping them the same behavior is not exhibited, as the host application seems to read the .mov time-code and pass to the encoder. This of course is not loss-less and takes a significantly longer time.
Also it seems that when cine-form files go through an application like VirtualDub time-code is lost as well even if it exists in an original .avi when ingested.

More of the same but different, somewhat related: when trans-coding files that came from a source that doesn't record a time-code (ie. Panasonic consumer) HDLink will use the time of creation as the TC beginning value like 13:04:45:01. When doing conversion in GOPro Studio Premium time-codes written all start with 00:00:00:00.

Hope it clarifies the issue.

David Newman · February 25th, 2012, 09:49 AM

A rewrap does lose timecode if it was in the sample, so I guess the timecode was only in the rewrapper. How where the original MOVs made?

The timecode behavior in Studio does need to be improved on the PC.

Dmitry Kitsov · February 25th, 2012, 08:42 PM

Original cineform .mov files were made were made by Compressor on Mac using Quicktime Cineform codec (I was coming from a format not supported by cineform on a Mac)

Dmitry Kitsov · April 6th, 2012, 11:51 AM

I can now confirm that time code is also lost when using HD Link to change existing Cineform .mov aspect ratio. Timecode is lost in a mov going to mov through HD Link.

February 24th, 2012, 12:43 AM	#1
Dmitry Kitsov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Walnut Creek, Ca Posts: 37	Major Problem with Timecode Hello there seems to be a major problem with Cineform HDLink handling the re-wrapping of cineform .mov into cineform .avi. Doing so strips the clips of any meaningful time-code (on my system each file becomes Start TC 00000000) This pretty much precludes any use of cineform codec in a pro finishing environment. Is it a bug? Is it by design? What do I do?

February 24th, 2012, 08:25 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Major Problem with Timecode AVI don't have a standard widely unused mechanism for storing timecode, so we store the timecode in the sample (compressed frame.) Inside tools like Premiere Pro we extract the timecode directly. I gather you are not using Premiere, which NLE are you losing the timecode in? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 25th, 2012, 01:46 AM	#3
Dmitry Kitsov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Walnut Creek, Ca Posts: 37	Re: Major Problem with Timecode Actually time-code is lost during the cineform quicklime .mov file to a cineform.avi file re-wrapping in HDLink. The time-code becomes something arbitrary but the same for all of the files re-wrapped or simply 00000000. This is affecting metadata display in Premiere Pro, AE, etc. and, more critically, makes the files not usable with applications that depend on the time-code explicitly (ie DaVinci Resolve being fed cineform.mov in the end of the pipeline). When not using a re-wrapping with HDLink but using Adobe Media Encoder which of course re-encodes the files rather than non destructively re-wrapping them the same behavior is not exhibited, as the host application seems to read the .mov time-code and pass to the encoder. This of course is not loss-less and takes a significantly longer time. Also it seems that when cine-form files go through an application like VirtualDub time-code is lost as well even if it exists in an original .avi when ingested. More of the same but different, somewhat related: when trans-coding files that came from a source that doesn't record a time-code (ie. Panasonic consumer) HDLink will use the time of creation as the TC beginning value like 13:04:45:01. When doing conversion in GOPro Studio Premium time-codes written all start with 00:00:00:00. Hope it clarifies the issue. Last edited by Dmitry Kitsov; February 25th, 2012 at 02:00 AM. Reason: additional info

February 25th, 2012, 09:49 AM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Major Problem with Timecode A rewrap does lose timecode if it was in the sample, so I guess the timecode was only in the rewrapper. How where the original MOVs made? The timecode behavior in Studio does need to be improved on the PC. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 25th, 2012, 08:42 PM	#5
Dmitry Kitsov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Walnut Creek, Ca Posts: 37	Re: Major Problem with Timecode Original cineform .mov files were made were made by Compressor on Mac using Quicktime Cineform codec (I was coming from a format not supported by cineform on a Mac)

April 6th, 2012, 11:51 AM	#6
Dmitry Kitsov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Walnut Creek, Ca Posts: 37	Re: Major Problem with Timecode I can now confirm that time code is also lost when using HD Link to change existing Cineform .mov aspect ratio. Timecode is lost in a mov going to mov through HD Link.