CineForm workflow questions

David Newman · April 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM

Yes, if he color corrects in After Effect he gets 10bit support, however I would still use CFHD files as the source materials (not uncompressed) as there is no quality impact to import the Premiere project with CineForm AVIs. To get 10bit output using only Aspect HD with require the export to be uncompressed from AE. Staying with CFHD for step 2 will help the workflow.

Ken Hodson · April 22nd, 2005, 01:51 PM

I'm not following you David. Are you saying import CFHD files into AE and CC in 8-bit, then export to uncompressed 10-bit? Or are you saying somehow CFHD files can be CC in 10-bit as long as they are exported uncompressed?

Gabor Lacza · April 22nd, 2005, 01:54 PM

I was just thinking doing color correction in uncompressed becasue it takes the heavy color correcting better than the CFHD wont it ????
Prospect HD is great David but $2500 is too much for me at this time.Especially that I own Adobe Video Collection so no point for me to purchase it one more time !!!
Gabor

David Newman · April 22nd, 2005, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

I'm not following you David. Are you saying import CFHD files into AE and CC in 8-bit, then export to uncompressed 10-bit? Or are you saying somehow CFHD files can be CC in 10-bit as long as they are exported uncompressed?

Yes to the last sentence. Put AE is 16bit mode, import CFHD files, CC in deep color (even though the orginal data was 8 bit) and output to uncompressed 10bit.

David.

David Newman · April 22nd, 2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabor Lacza

I was just thinking doing color correction in uncompressed becasue it takes the heavy color correcting better than the CFHD wont it ????
Gabor

No doesn't work that way. When you take 8bit compressed data and export as 10bit uncompressed you still have 8 bit data only it is 10 times bigger -- that is a pain without value. Take the orginal CFHD file into AE (in 16-bit mode) and you have extractly to same quality as if you converted it to uncompressed. The CC is performed in deep color, then you can export the results to 10bit uncompressed. Same output quality without the conversion step (until you need it.)

Gabor Lacza · April 23rd, 2005, 06:35 AM

So If I CC in After Effects (16bit) and finish my video editing there, what is the point of exporting as uncompressed 10 bit???

Why cant I just export it the way it is in CFHD and import it to Audition for the audio editing and when that is also done I just

Import this CFHD audio and video file into Encore and make a HD-WM9, SD-DVD and D-VHS version!!!

David Newman · April 23rd, 2005, 09:48 AM

You can do this very thing. A good trick though is to add 0.4% noise to the final render. The deep color will be clipped back to 8bit when you export, the 0.4% noise with dither the 16bit signal so banding doesn't jump out in the 8bit final.

Michael Stewart · April 27th, 2005, 12:45 AM

Interesting thread, the aspect hd file is 8bit, but you can deep cc in after effects at 10 bit ( are you saying just because the file says 8 bit it is actually 10?) and then export to 8 bit? What is the advantage? Why would I want Prospect HD if I have AE pro?

Thanks
Mike

David Newman · April 27th, 2005, 09:32 AM

Mike,

The techniques I described above do extend the usefullness of 8bit though the additon of noise, this trick has been known for a long time but it is hardly a replacement for 10bit work-flows. Only Prospect HD offers a true 10bit work-flow allowing deep color correction within Premiere rather than the more awkward environment of AE. Banding due to 8bit also commonly happens in dissolves and fades, and it is a pain to do them all in 16bit AE adding noise to cover 8bit limitations (note adding noise in standard 8bit Premiere will not work the same.) The Aspect HD compression only has 8bit I/O (per channel), such RGB 24 and YUV 16, whereas Prospect HD compression supports 16bit per channel I/O for very deep color. In Prospect HD processing is performed is 16bit per channel and sent to the codec that way, no 8bit truncation occurs.

Michael Stewart · April 27th, 2005, 06:33 PM

Thanks David, will a prospect hd trial be available soon/at all to compare the 2 (aspect/prospect)

Mike

Dave Campbell · July 3rd, 2005, 08:20 PM

Okay, I am finally starting to get into this now, and of course seem to have issues. So for you folks who are made things work, got some questions for you. So, I did a wedding yesterday and have now inputted the HDV data into PPro 1.51. I took a 2 minute piece and am trying output conversions to see what happens. So, I first tried wmv9 1080i anamarophic. It first took like 45 minutes to encode for this 2 minute clip. Ouch. But, when I went to watch this on my computer monitor, it really broke up on anything that was moving. So, I then did a microsoft dv avi output of the same click and it works just fine.

So, I am just starting this output and really have no idea what I must be messing up. Any help to get me point in the right direction would be great.
I am looking at giving them two outputs. One would be SD DVD. The other I thought would be MS HD for use in an I/O Data DVD player.

thanks in advance.

Dave

Mark Grant · July 4th, 2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

But, when I went to watch this on my computer monitor, it really broke up on anything that was moving.

Are you sure that's not interlace artifacts? Did you deinterlace the footage for output to the WMV file?

Dave Campbell · July 4th, 2005, 10:08 AM

Mark, it probably is interlacing.

Is there an option for this? All these different outputs.
The 720p seemed to work on the monitor. Not sure if I have a decent enough
video card either. So many darn things to learn.

Dave

Jeff Baker · July 4th, 2005, 11:41 AM

Did you use upperfield first for output? That can cause the problems you describe.

Dave Campbell · July 5th, 2005, 01:41 PM

I can not seem to find an upper field option in PPro output.

I did see in Procoder but it will not let me select it.

Man, this who thing with are you reviewing on a LCD panel, vs CRT.
So, are LCD panels always progressive?

Dave

April 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM	#16
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, if he color corrects in After Effect he gets 10bit support, however I would still use CFHD files as the source materials (not uncompressed) as there is no quality impact to import the Premiere project with CineForm AVIs. To get 10bit output using only Aspect HD with require the export to be uncompressed from AE. Staying with CFHD for step 2 will help the workflow. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 22nd, 2005, 01:51 PM	#17
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I'm not following you David. Are you saying import CFHD files into AE and CC in 8-bit, then export to uncompressed 10-bit? Or are you saying somehow CFHD files can be CC in 10-bit as long as they are exported uncompressed? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

April 23rd, 2005, 09:48 AM	#22
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	You can do this very thing. A good trick though is to add 0.4% noise to the final render. The deep color will be clipped back to 8bit when you export, the 0.4% noise with dither the 16bit signal so banding doesn't jump out in the 8bit final. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 27th, 2005, 09:32 AM	#24
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Mike, The techniques I described above do extend the usefullness of 8bit though the additon of noise, this trick has been known for a long time but it is hardly a replacement for 10bit work-flows. Only Prospect HD offers a true 10bit work-flow allowing deep color correction within Premiere rather than the more awkward environment of AE. Banding due to 8bit also commonly happens in dissolves and fades, and it is a pain to do them all in 16bit AE adding noise to cover 8bit limitations (note adding noise in standard 8bit Premiere will not work the same.) The Aspect HD compression only has 8bit I/O (per channel), such RGB 24 and YUV 16, whereas Prospect HD compression supports 16bit per channel I/O for very deep color. In Prospect HD processing is performed is 16bit per channel and sent to the codec that way, no 8bit truncation occurs. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 3rd, 2005, 08:20 PM	#26
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	HDV workflow Okay, I am finally starting to get into this now, and of course seem to have issues. So for you folks who are made things work, got some questions for you. So, I did a wedding yesterday and have now inputted the HDV data into PPro 1.51. I took a 2 minute piece and am trying output conversions to see what happens. So, I first tried wmv9 1080i anamarophic. It first took like 45 minutes to encode for this 2 minute clip. Ouch. But, when I went to watch this on my computer monitor, it really broke up on anything that was moving. So, I then did a microsoft dv avi output of the same click and it works just fine. So, I am just starting this output and really have no idea what I must be messing up. Any help to get me point in the right direction would be great. I am looking at giving them two outputs. One would be SD DVD. The other I thought would be MS HD for use in an I/O Data DVD player. thanks in advance. Dave

April 22nd, 2005, 01:54 PM	#18
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	I was just thinking doing color correction in uncompressed becasue it takes the heavy color correcting better than the CFHD wont it ???? Prospect HD is great David but $2500 is too much for me at this time.Especially that I own Adobe Video Collection so no point for me to purchase it one more time !!! Gabor

April 23rd, 2005, 06:35 AM	#21
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	So If I CC in After Effects (16bit) and finish my video editing there, what is the point of exporting as uncompressed 10 bit??? Why cant I just export it the way it is in CFHD and import it to Audition for the audio editing and when that is also done I just Import this CFHD audio and video file into Encore and make a HD-WM9, SD-DVD and D-VHS version!!!

April 27th, 2005, 12:45 AM	#23
Michael Stewart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane, Wa. Posts: 445	Interesting thread, the aspect hd file is 8bit, but you can deep cc in after effects at 10 bit ( are you saying just because the file says 8 bit it is actually 10?) and then export to 8 bit? What is the advantage? Why would I want Prospect HD if I have AE pro? Thanks Mike

April 27th, 2005, 06:33 PM	#25
Michael Stewart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane, Wa. Posts: 445	Thanks David, will a prospect hd trial be available soon/at all to compare the 2 (aspect/prospect) Mike

July 4th, 2005, 10:08 AM	#28
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Mark, it probably is interlacing. Is there an option for this? All these different outputs. The 720p seemed to work on the monitor. Not sure if I have a decent enough video card either. So many darn things to learn. Dave

July 4th, 2005, 11:41 AM	#29
Jeff Baker Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northampton, MA Posts: 184	Did you use upperfield first for output? That can cause the problems you describe. __________________ Canon C100, 5D3

July 5th, 2005, 01:41 PM	#30
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	I can not seem to find an upper field option in PPro output. I did see in Procoder but it will not let me select it. Man, this who thing with are you reviewing on a LCD panel, vs CRT. So, are LCD panels always progressive? Dave