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-   -   Cineform and Premiere Pro 2.0 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/58155-cineform-premiere-pro-2-0-a.html)

Randy Donato January 12th, 2006 06:09 PM

Cineform and Premiere Pro 2.0
 
Rumor mill has it that 2.0 will support native HDV(.m2t) editing...If so big mistake IMHO and what is up with the Cineform plugin...is it(meaning the limited version in 1.51) still a part of 2.0? Also will the Aspect 3.x version plug into 2.0 or is that more dollars?...or more likely than not NDA's perevent an answer at this time?

David Newman January 12th, 2006 06:17 PM

Yes, you got it (the last part.) :)

Randy Donato January 12th, 2006 06:42 PM

Actually here is a link to 2.0 specs so the part about native .m2t is true.....I laughed at the system specs.....I want to see someone with dual xeon 2.8s do anything other than playback the file. I guess the marketing lure of being able to say "native" got the better of them. As a format to record to tape it is great...not so great to edit. http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf Actually they say P4 3.4 for HDV...too funny.

David Newman January 12th, 2006 06:51 PM

That info doesn't seem public in the US yet (so I should still defer my comments.) :)

Randy Donato January 12th, 2006 07:04 PM

If they have dropped the 1.51 Cineform plugin like function in favor of .m2t it is a great move for Cineform since you can now get the business that you didn't have from those who were happy with 1.51 and didn't buy Aspect. Let users muck around with .m2t for a while and they will flock to your plugin.

David Newman January 12th, 2006 07:14 PM

We see it that way also. :)

Steven Gotz January 12th, 2006 08:09 PM

There is no question in my mind that Cineform Aspect HD made it possible for me to actually edit video from my Sony FX1. Without it, I would have been miserable. If 2.0 does not have it, and Cineform does not charge for the upgrade their software requires (or keeps it reasonable), it will leave those of us who have a copy to explain the situation to the poor saps who suffer along without it for a while. I don't know how much Cineform made on each copy of 1.5.1 but my guess is that they will all be a lot richer after 2.0 comes out. Every one of the HDV users will want Aspect HD now. All of a sudden, the price will become les of an obstacle.

Randy Donato January 12th, 2006 09:21 PM

Well not everyone since other apps are out there but if you want to stick to Ppro you are absolutely right.I mostly use Canopus Edius with an Nx but there are a few things that I can't do in Edius that I can in Ppro with Aspect and it is a great combo. If my choice was Ppro and .m2t forget it. I think it is a huge step backwards for Adobe who wouldn't have even been a player at all in the HDV game without the 1.51 plugin that took forever as it was. It doesn't surprise me though since Adobe isn't known for being loyal to outside companies whose products are too good and don't play by their rules(Canopus has experiance with that and watch what happens to Matrox)...I want to see their new multicam in action with a couple of HDV(.m2t) streams......ha. Hey does this mean the poor slobs with FCP(also enjoying the good life of "Native") can now get a Cineform plugin since the Adobe bonds have weakened:)

David Taylor January 13th, 2006 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato
Hey does this mean the poor slobs with FCP(also enjoying the good life of "Native") can now get a Cineform plugin since the Adobe bonds have weakened:)

Well...remember that Apple is in the process of moving all their HW to the Intel platform. That means if we choose to support FCP, the porting of our codec, which is heavily optimized with SSE2 special instructions, just got a whole lot easier....

Randy Donato January 13th, 2006 01:50 AM

If 1/2 of what I am hearing is true about the new native HDV support the backlash could turn many in the HDV market away from Adobe and in at least the short run that isn't good for you guys....but you will dominate if anyone stays and is serious about editing HDV...so long as the renown video editing code writers from India let you stay.

Jason Lowe January 13th, 2006 08:38 AM

On a somewhat related note, here's the release notes for Encore 2

http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf

John Hewat January 13th, 2006 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Lowe
On a somewhat related note, here's the release notes for Encore 2

http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf

No indication that you can create DVDs with HDV quality footage.

I was secretly hoping this wouldn't hit the streets until they had HD-DVD creation as an option.

Jason Rodriguez January 13th, 2006 11:56 PM

Of course compounding the fact that you'll need a heck of a system to edit native .mt2's, is the fact that post workflow when it comes to multi-generational passes completely hits the wall quality-wise after the first generation.

If you work in any sort of post workflow where it all doesn't just stay on your single box/NAS/SAN (and all you do is dynamic link between After Effects 7 and Premiere 2), you could be in for an extreme world of hurt. Start rendering out files to send to multiple other users (as is very common in a group workflow where multiple packages are used for their given strengths for a specific task) and the game's over.

Again, using dynamic link, I could see how one could keep from loosing multiple generations through avoiding the path of exporting/importing .m2t files back-and-forth, but that's only within the Adobe family, and when looked at in light of a typical post production workflow as a whole, is very limiting and prone to problems. Frankly, if Adobe is going to go after the same markets as Final Cut and Avid, they need to have some form of "group-think"-i.e, higher end users tend to work in colaborative workflows, they are not just single islands and one-man-bands. While Apple was advertising the "renessaince man" approach to work last NAB, at least they acknowledge that their higher-end users are not just working alone in their basement having to-do everything themselves. So at least they deliver some solutions for higher-end post paths. AVID is king of this "group-think" solution, but at least with Cineform, you can enable higher-end post paths through the quality of the codec (esp. Prospect HD), and not kill yourself on mutli-user bandwidth requirements and the cost of Adrenaline digitizing stations.

I just wish Adobe would see things that way at little more . . . instead of "native" HDV and "native" uncompressed HD (how many real-time streams can you get with that for under $10K??) that's really only good for the "island" single-user approach, they should be licensing Prospect HD and their 10-bit CFHD codec, in-turn creating killer post-production workflows that nobody can touch at their price-point with high-end interoperability and amazing real-time capabilites.

Just my .02 cents :)

John Hewat January 14th, 2006 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato
Rumor mill has it that 2.0 will support native HDV(.m2t) editing...If so big mistake IMHO and what is up with the Cineform plugin...is it(meaning the limited version in 1.51) still a part of 2.0? Also will the Aspect 3.x version plug into 2.0 or is that more dollars?...or more likely than not NDA's perevent an answer at this time?

This by no means suggests that PPro 2 will be for exclusive editing of m2t files; it's just their way of saying "we can do that" but I imagine that they'll embrace the idea of Cineform's codec, won't they?

Randy Donato January 14th, 2006 11:45 AM

Well embrace isn't the word when they chose to eliminate the basic Cineform plugin and go with native HDV....I think what you mean is will Aspect still work with 2.0 and the answer is yes. Adobe has a nasty way IMHO of dealing with 3rd party vendors like Cineform (and others) and once they think they don't need you anymore it gets harder to get cooperation from them. The word arrogance is often times used by people I know that describe Adobe and I bet their spots haven't changed. Soon we will all know about how 2.0 and HDV match up and it is going to be ugly....I hear from certain birds that the playback is very very sluggish and if you capture .m2t and it wasn't done in 2.0 it will not work...how dumb is that?

John Hewat January 14th, 2006 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato
I hear from certain birds that the playback is very very sluggish and if you capture .m2t and it wasn't done in 2.0 it will not work...how dumb is that?

Well all this sucks - I just finally decided on a system based on PPro 1.5 and Aspect for my Z1 footage and now I may have to rethink it. But PPro is by far my favourite NLE and I'd hate to have to change now. Updates to programs are supposed to be upgrades, not downgrades.

Steven Gotz January 14th, 2006 07:16 PM

Just because Premiere Pro may no longer use the Cineform codec does not mean that Aspect HD won't work. I am sure that Cineform is on top of the situation. Since I never used Premiere Pro 1.5.1 for HDV work without Aspect HD, I imagine that using Premiere Pro 2.0 with Aspect HD will be more of the same. No difference.

Earl Thurston January 15th, 2006 11:28 AM

This weekend I asked my filmmaking buddy to get the Premiere Pro 1.5 upgrade (from 1.0, which we currently have) before it disappears when 2.0 launches. I've had a few instances in the past where I wish I had've gotten a previous version of an Adobe product but waited too long and found the newest version unsuitable. Problem is, once Adobe ships an upgrade, they do everything they can to pull previous versions from the market.

I know PPro 1.5 with Aspect HD works (even with my older P4 2.66GHz), so don't want to take the chance 2.0 will give us grief.

Randy Donato January 15th, 2006 12:03 PM

I don't think that is necessary and I am very sure Aspect will not have a problem at all pluging into 2.0....I am sure Cineform is in a tough position since they have to deal with Adobe whether Adobe uses CFHD as there primary means of editing HDV or not so you can bet they will not be able to give you all the behind the scenes reasons for this development.

But I would bet the farm that Adobe for invented reasons thought Cineform and their solution for some absurd reason wasn't up to their vision of what they want for Ppro and HDV...the fact is Adobe hates it that someone who is a third party vendor can do it better than they can and that is exactly what CFHD was/is...better than Adobe can do it in house.My bet is once Adobe realises how poor their implementation is they will be very happy that Cineform is there to give HDV users an alternative. Otherwise chalk one more up to FCP. Tell your friend if he wants to wait on 2.0 and use Aspect he will be just fine.

The US release of 2.0 information should happen this week and that should free up the Cineform folks from their Non disclosure agreement's and allow them to comment in a more direct manner on the situation....I wouldn't do a thing until you hear from them.

Don Blish January 15th, 2006 11:05 PM

Encore 2.0 support for HD dimensions hidden?
 
I, for one won't be upgrading anything till it purports to master a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Version 2.0 may well be hiding HD capability, but won't advertise it till validated on an early burner, like the Pioneer BDR-101A, out in a few months. Then I expect a version 2.0.1!

A quickie update for HD menus and video, but still supporting only the Mpeg codec, I expect. The full text of the Blu-ray "movie distribution" spec has a lot of elaborate menu enhancements, extra "video layers" and such that will take some significant rewriting to support in full.

Richard Leadbetter January 16th, 2006 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Blish
I, for one won't be upgrading anything till it purports to master a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Version 2.0 may well be hiding HD capability, but won't advertise it till validated on an early burner, like the Pioneer BDR-101A, out in a few months. Then I expect a version 2.0.1!

A quickie update for HD menus and video, but still supporting only the Mpeg codec, I expect. The full text of the Blu-ray "movie distribution" spec has a lot of elaborate menu enhancements, extra "video layers" and such that will take some significant rewriting to support in full.

I have to admit that I'm not 100% up with the HD-DVD or BluRay specs, but would it not be the case that preparation of final assets for authoring would most likely be done with an encoder or muxer separate or distinct from Premiere Pro?

If you're looking to actually master straight to BluRay or HD-DVD disks wouldn't an authoring program need to be used? If I remember correctly, BluRay will be using a rendition of Java to run its front-end menus and HD-DVD uses something called iHD - another programming language that's most likely very similar. Extra video layers and such would surely be organised within the authoring tools rather than in Premiere Pro?

Surely the workflow will be Premiere Pro for editing, exporting of assets -> Encoder to create MPEG2/MPEG4s -> Authoring tool to master and burn BluRay/HD-DVDs?

As it is, Premiere Pro 1.5 should be able to handle the editing and processing of your base high definition BluRay/HD-DVD assets and 2.0 will too.

Don Blish January 16th, 2006 07:15 PM

Right - Blu-Ray is an Encore, not PPro issue
 
Right. Final encoding and menu prep should be to Encore, not PPro. So depending on the pricing, I may only upgrade Encore, not the whole Video bundle.

Randy Donato January 16th, 2006 07:33 PM

Not to offend but what does blue ray and encore have to do with the topic of this thread which is cineform and ppro?

Earl Thurston January 16th, 2006 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato
I don't think that is necessary and I am very sure Aspect will not have a problem at all pluging into 2.0....

Oh, I'm quite confident about CineForm's stuff -- it's PPro by itself I'm being cautious about. My plan to get 1.5 before 2.0 comes out is just in case 2.0 has other issues (i.e. higher hardware demands, sluggish interface, bugs, etc.) I seldom upgrade software unless there's a compelling need for it, and do so very cautiously. (Hence why we're still using PPro 1.0, which has satisfied our needs until recently.)

Richard Leadbetter January 17th, 2006 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato
Not to offend but what does blue ray and encore have to do with the topic of this thread which is cineform and ppro?

CineFormHD and Premiere Pro (whether 1.5 or 2.0) will definitely have a place in any workflow relating to preparation of HD-DVD or BluRay assets. My post and Don's merely clarified where PPro would fit within that workflow.

Pete Bauer January 17th, 2006 11:03 AM

UPGRADE FAQ at Cineform
 
New announcement coincident with the release of PPro 2.0. Here's the quick FAQ for Aspect and Prospect users:

http://www.cineform.com/products/FAQ.htm

Steven White January 17th, 2006 11:20 AM

Here's my $0.02:

I have a Sony HDR-FX1, Premiere Pro 1.5.1, AspectHD 3.4 and After Effects 6.5 running on a 2.8 GHz machine with 1 GB of RAM.

All of my acquisition is painless and automatically scene detected through HDLink. Quality is selectable, pull-downs are removed and the files play back beautifully.

I can shoot a project in 60i and edit it in real time in a 60i timeline.

I can shoot a project in CF30 and edit in real time in a 30p timeline.

I can shoot a project in CF24 and edit in real time in a 24p timeline.

I can copy and paste from any of these projects directly into After Effects, which handles the Cineform files about as well as it handles DV files, with the exception that render times are 4x larger as there are 4x as many pixels. From here I can add any titles, effects, keys, and colour correction in 16-bit compositions that produce excellent results (IMHO).

I can export Cineform files or uncompressed avi's from After Effects, import them into Premiere Pro and seemlessly export SD footage for DVD - and thanks to Cineform it handles fields and framerates perfectly.

Every single function of my camera is supported, and my workflow could not be easier.

Why the heck would I need to upgrade?

-Steve

David Newman January 17th, 2006 11:38 AM

Steve, good question, effectivity Aspect HD is all the upgrade you need. :) Aspect HD users may prefer the window layout controls for 2.0, although this is primarily a cosmetic feature (although I like it a lot.) The biggest changes in PPro 2.0 are underneith with the deeper color processing that will primarily benefit Prospect HD users, the change to support all this color richness will push Prospect HD features a lot more than Aspect HD (but expect some Aspect HD bonuses in the future -- I don't know what yet.) We expect Aspect HD to maintain a very similar feature set on both Premiere Pro 1.5.1 and PPro 2.0.

For more information on this thread topic, please vist my blog here : http://cineform.blogspot.com/2006/01...re-pro-20.html

Matt Vanecek January 17th, 2006 02:31 PM

Where's the 4.0 purchase page?
 
When will Aspect HD 4.0 be made available for purchase? According to your FAQ, 4.0 will still work with PPro 1.5.1, correct (the FAQ says v1.5)? I'm not planning on upgrading my Adobe suite anytime soon. When I look under Products|AspectHD on the CineForm Web site, y'all still have v3.4 up there.

Thanks,
Matt

David Newman January 17th, 2006 02:49 PM

The FAQ say January 20th for Aspect HD 4.0 -- so we had better try for that. :)

Matt Vanecek January 17th, 2006 04:17 PM

well shutmymouth. There wasn't a specific "when is the release date" FAQ, so I didn't get past my primary point of interest (compatibility with PPro 1.5.1--FAQ #1). I didn't get to the upgrade FAQs because, well, I'm not upgrading.... ;)

Thanks. I'll keep an eye out...
Matt

Eric Lagerlof January 17th, 2006 10:39 PM

So, if I am getting this right:
PPro 1.5 had a free plug-in from Cineform that gave you some acceleration and allowed you to use m2t files in a OK way, making a say 3ghz p4 workable.

PPro 2.0 does not have any Cineform plug-in, needs a very supercharged computer to play even 1 HDV video layer at normal speed and what does it do when it composites?

So now, instead of buying PPro 1.5 and being able to do at least real-time basic editing on my 3.2 ghz laptop with the free CFHD plug-in, I have to get PPRo 2.0, a new powerful desktop and pay an extra $500.00 for the full version of Aspect? (No offense David, I'm just trying to build up a little more business before I buy your software.) Is this about right?

Jeff Baker January 17th, 2006 11:04 PM

just saw it tonight
 
I just saw the Adobe showcase at BAVC in SF tonight and I have to say the new integration is pretty sweet. A new feature that allows you to export video in a PDF file that allows for comments from others anywhere that have adobe reader was very impressive.

Adobe audtion is now integrated with a menu option that automatically opens any audio clip from premiere in audition and all changes are automatically applied (works better the old "edit orignal").

No mention of cineform was made however, so I would like to get clear on what to expect in that area soon.

Michael Stewart January 18th, 2006 08:31 AM

I could not pass up the upgrade, excited to finally have multicam editing, so I am downloading the upgrade as I write, I will post my Cineform /PPro 2 opinion after Friday:)


MIke

Jeff Baker January 18th, 2006 11:08 AM

Yes the multicam with the "punch in" editing option is very nice. But it did not run in real time in the demo I saw which was on a dual 2.8 system. But the presenter said if he had 2GB of ram on the system it would have been. I'm not sure however it was pretty jerky.
Still if you used the multicam plugin before then the integration in prem pro 2 looks like a must have.

Michael Stewart January 18th, 2006 07:05 PM

yep the multicam is not realtime, I have a new dual core 2.8 system 1 gig of ram, it still does the conforming thingy although they say not as much, but I imported an old project and it had to conform the whole works again, I personally don't nee the realtime on viewing the 4 windows I have to scrub slowly anyway to see what I want, but I will tell you that avids multicam is alot smoother, spent time with a friend of mine with a dual g5 mac and on final cut it still could not do realtime either, wonder if cineform will be able to do it? David? want to give it a try? I will keep updating as I go. The download is 1 GB by the way.

Mike

Pete Bauer January 18th, 2006 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Stewart
yep the multicam is not realtime, I have a new dual core 2.8 system 1 gig of ram...
...wonder if cineform will be able to do it? David?
Mike

Michael and Jeff, what kind of video were you seeing that performed poorly in multi-cam? Was it DV, HDV, Cineform AVI, or something else? With, or without a Cineform product? Yes, will definitely look forward to Cineform comments on what to expect for overall performance, as well as multi-cam performance under PPro 2.0 / Aspect 4.0.

I looked on the Adobe site and couldn't find an option for either trial or purchase by download (yet) for the Production Suite. Where did you find that (even though I'm old fashioned enough to want the boxed, paper-manual product for a large suite like this).

Michael Stewart January 18th, 2006 09:45 PM

standard dv widescreen footage, on my Premiere pro 2 system and the friend of mines, dual g5, it also had to do a conform type of thing for it also before I could do it (multicam) in pro 2, I imagine that it will still be sluggish as great as cineform is, simply because the bit rates are the same? anyway, Avid is pretty cool in that it can have multiple resolutions on the same timeline.


Mike

Michael Stewart January 18th, 2006 09:57 PM

To make a statement about the "presenter" if it could have ran in realtime with more RAM, why did he not have it, he must have skipped that in his training, run the beefiest system so everything runs smooth as silk so it looks great at exhibits. The funny thing is that I could take premiere pro1.5, shrink the 4 videos to fit in the window and get better performance than what I have seen in PPro 2.0, not complaining, but logically I would not think it would be worse, I don't need the realtime "smooth scrubbing anyway" it just seems initially that more render before using is taking place than before, each version gets worse, it used to be conformed audio, now other items seem to require it before use, audio for instance I noticed in some instances you could not hear it until it reached that particular track and completely conformed it, used to be if you double clicked it and played it in the monitor window it would focus the conform to that clip because you were working on it, gave it priority in a sense, or in the timeline I could still play it back while it was conforming, does not seem to be the case, why cant it capture it on the fly from the tape and convert it anyway, or let us edit the darn thing and then conform it, I hate the fact that all old projects have to completely reconform and rerender the stuff, now keep in mind these were observations after 30 minutes of use, only wanting to do/try the multicam.

Mike

Jeff Baker January 19th, 2006 12:49 AM

Video at the presentation was HD footage imported thru AJA card I think (Does AJA work with pc?). So it was uncompressed on the timeline but I think it gracefully degraded during previews and then started stuttering. This was with 4 mulitcam windows open.


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