Sony PMW-F3 Will Support Dual-Link HD-SDI at DVinfo.net

Jeff DePonte · November 8th, 2010, 03:03 PM

Hi Dan,

The plot thickens with this new Sony camera. Is there a Dual-Link NanoFlash product to support it?

Sony's PMW-F3 Targets Indie Filmmakers
Camera Has 35mm CMOS, Will Support Dual-Link HD-SDI RGB Workflow

More here:
Sony's PMW-F3 Targets Indie Filmmakers | Studio Daily

Aloha...

Jeff

Ned Soltz · November 8th, 2010, 03:16 PM

I was at that briefing today along with the Studio Daily writer. He did an excellent job of summarizing our briefing.

Note that the F3 will support 10-bit 4:2:2 over single link SDI. We need to await the optional and as yet unpriced firmware upgrade to support dual link RGB.

But what was nice to hear is that Sony specifically mentioned NanoFlash as one of the options for higher quality images from the camera.

Ned Soltz

Dennis Dillon · November 8th, 2010, 09:03 PM

I have been waiting for this for years. Ever since I placed 35 mm adapters on various cameras and wished for the day of a real camera, not a still camera, could use larger sensors and accommodate PL mounted lens. And less than 40K.
I'll have a chance to see it and put it through some paces in the next few weeks and will share my experiences.
I plan on placing multiple units in our kit.

Dan Keaton · November 9th, 2010, 01:24 AM

Dear Dennis,

I agree, this is a very exciting announcement.

I have read in other threads where this camera was being described as too expensive and being compared with far lower cost cameras.

In my opinion, this new camera should be compared to much higher cost cameras.

The following remains to be seen and proven, but I have heard that the sensor in this camera is as good as the sensor in any Sony camera!

And we just love it when a new camera comes out that can be improved by adding a nanoFlash.

Dan Keaton · November 9th, 2010, 01:25 AM

Dear Jeff,

The nanoFlash and the nano3D are not currently designed to accept Dual Link HD-SDI.

Mark Job · November 9th, 2010, 12:43 PM

....Hi Dan:
Anyone who does manage to pay $16K US for this camera will not want to downgrade the signal-especially dual link of course, with an 8 bit recording device, when the camera is clearly a 10 bit & 12 bit (Dual Link) capable Cine-Alta type camera.

Andrew Stone · November 10th, 2010, 12:19 PM

I'm with Mark. The kind of people or rather production houses/companies that would drop this camera into their workflow are already into tethering cameras to high end recording systems. For those lower down in the video film industry ecosystem will be capturing into computers with Kona 3s or the not yet released or field tested Ki Pro Mini or the nanoFlash.

Once you get over the limp internal capture specs using the internal recorder, given what the camera is capable of, you have an incredible grab-it-and-go high end "digital cinema" capable camera. Has great potential as a tethered B-camera to high end outfits already in the Sony ecosystem with F35s and SRW-9000s but also as a camera to upsell clients on with out the workflow hassles of another camera that shall remain nameless.

Anything that reduces my time in front of a computer in an order of magnitude has my interest.

Doug Jensen · November 11th, 2010, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Job

....Hi Dan: Anyone who does manage to pay $16K US for this camera will not want to downgrade the signal-especially dual link of course, with an 8 bit recording device, when the camera is clearly a 10 bit & 12 bit (Dual Link) capable Cine-Alta type camera.

Well, I'd strongly disagree with that statement. I am hoping to be one of the first in line to buy an F3 (if Dennis doesn't buy them all) and I'll be quite happy recording to SxS cards most of the time and to my NanoFlash when I want a little better bit-rate and color sampling. It's nice this camera will offer the option of better recording, but I don't need to fool myself into thinking I need that level of quality for most of the work I'm doing.

Don't be so quick to write off the guys like me who will be moving up from an EX1/3. I can't justify a SRW-9000, F35, or ALEXA but I can surely justify $16-$20K for a camera that will let me come very close to what those cameras can do. I don't want it as a B camera, I want it as an A camera. The F3 opens up a whole new world of creativity for those people who want to explore new shooting techniques and get a "look" that no ordinary ENG/EFP camera can achieve.

I love the look that you can get with digital SLRs, but it sucks to work with those cameras. Now the F3 exceeds the specifications of the SLRs and gives you that shallow DOF organic "look" --- with a normal camcorder design, a viewfinder, adjustable LCD, zebras, peaking, assign buttons, audio meters, timecode, control over paint settings, control over clip naming, onboard audio, playback control, HDSDI output, timecode I/O, etc.

$16K is a very small investment to make back and my camera will pay for itself after a couple of months. It's like getting a baby SRW-9000 for 1/5 the price.
I can't wait to get mine.

Luben Izov · November 11th, 2010, 03:54 PM

I am with Doug on this! Just because is available doesn't mean that will be used by everyone. It is very good to have that option and If I ever need that, I would rent the necessary equipment and do the job. Other then that, NF is just perfect for F3.
Mark, when was the last time you recorded 10-12bit for a payed job?
Even with 8bit 280Mbps on NF, NF media passes every time the QC for Big Screen or TV when intercut with RED or F35 so far!, and that is the area where I make my living and using NF very successful.
I would love to get F3, just don't know if I would need the full package or not. I have an excellent set of prime Nikon Nikkor lenses and if I am capable of using them with F3, that would be awesome. Also, I hope Sony would provide an stereoscopic lens for F3 so that could be used for 3D with NF 3D. Does anyone know the answer on those questions of mine? Thank you
Cheers

Bruce Schultz · November 11th, 2010, 05:13 PM

You probably wouldn't want a stereoscopic lens for this camera as that would only give you a 1/2 resolution double image on one sensor. The prototype Sony had at IBC and the Panasonic 3DA1 are really two cameras inside and deliver two discreet full resolution data streams either for internal record or outboard to devices like Nano Flash or KiPro recorders. This allows you to work with two separate full rez data streams in post for convergence and other adjustments to the 3D image. Baking in a left/right image on one data channel prohibits all of the necessary fine tuning in post, so it's really just a home use device to display little junior spilling his milk - again - in 3D.

Panasonic makes a camcorder with a stereo lens attachment if you are interested in that at a price somewhere around $1200 USD.

Luben Izov · November 11th, 2010, 07:02 PM

Thank you Bruce! Thank you for that clarification. Do you have an info regarding Nikon Nikkor Prime/tele lenses with proper adapter on F3? Thank you
Cheers

Mark Job · November 11th, 2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Don't be so quick to write off the guys like me who will be moving up from an EX1/3. I can't justify a SRW-9000, F35, or ALEXA but I can surely justify $16-$20K for a camera that will let me come very close to what those cameras can do. I don't want it as a B camera, I want it as an A camera. The F3 opens up a whole new world of creativity for those people who want to explore new shooting techniques and get a "look" that no ordinary ENG/EFP camera can achieve.

...But you can't achieve the look you describe with a capture device which is only capable of grabbing 60 % of what the F3 can actually produce, so whatever advantage you gain by having the $16K Cine Alta camcorder is nullified by using a capture device. Why purchase a Dual - Link 12 bit camera only to record in 8 bits on an MPEG 2 codec ??? Isn't this a little like Rembrandt trying to paint with an exi-sketch ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

$16K is a very small investment to make back and my camera will pay for itself after a couple of months. It's like getting a baby SRW-9000 for 1/5 the price.
I can't wait to get mine.

...If this is the case, then why don't you also consider purchasing a cinedeck recorder, which is capable of capturing directly to Quicktime, Avid DNxHD, or Cineform codec, plus uncompressed and dual link ? This capture device will give you 10 and 12 bit capture to get 100 % of the sensor data from the F3. If you're going $16K, then why not go $7K more and complete the chain ?

Mark Job · November 12th, 2010, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luben Izov

I am with Doug on this! Mark, when was the last time you recorded 10-12bit for a payed job?
Thank you
Cheers

....Often. I have to rent sometimes. I shoot much of my paying work in 8 bit in HDV and with my Flash XDR. Right now my film on Montreal's homeless is shot 70 % Flash XDR and the remaining 30 % in HDV tape - All 8 bit. My footage looks really good too, but it doesn't look as good as 10 bit or dual link 12 bit.

Dennis Dillon · November 12th, 2010, 11:34 AM

8 bit 10 bit 12 bit. That is the beauty of this camera. One camera, different recorders, including the internal one. So 7 K for Cine Deck + 3K for CD Nano + 16 K F3= 26K for an SR type camera.
I have yet to see a frame from this camera , but I do know that Sony has been working this camera for quite some time. They have gone over RED and ARRI and other offerings to come up with a camera for the professional, not the " I have 2k+ invested in a DSLR, so now I'm a pro", crowd. Im so sick and tired of producers who see the 5D on Vimeo and say, lets use that and save $$$. Please use a real monitor when evaluating an image. BTW the 7.5 OLED from Sony has beaten my TV Logic and Flanders hands down.

It costs more when you add in all the shots that do not pass, and have to reshoot. Audio?? TC?? Consumer connections???. Before the DSLR crowd jumps on me, let me state that I have put more DSLR images on broadcast TV than most. Not a boast, just reality. While I love shallow DOF (Been doing this for three years with XDCAM 700/800/Pro 35/Zeiss Master Primes & Letus/EX/Zeiss combos), the Canon has a lot of moments that work terrificly (Great in Car Cam), but when it fails as a "Pro" camera, I take a big hit from my clients.

Sony has stood by as Canon and Panasonic and Red (Still waiting for latest) have shown their hand and now they will show theirs.

Note: After three years of mixing EX CF and Optical media, I still believe XD Optical is the best, and I always move the flash type SD, CF, or SxS to optical. I can tell you many tales of lost or disabled HDs that sit on a shelf while off line is completed and $$$$$$ of $$$$$$$$ are lost. If this happens to you once, you will live with that for the rest of your career as a bartender. No offense to mixologists.

Andrew Stone · November 12th, 2010, 11:46 AM

Hi Mark,

I know a few people that use the Cinedeck recorder and while they say it is good in some ways, they all issue reports that would make most not want to rely on it unless "production" tells you to use it.

One of the big issues they report is the thing hanging. Crashing in other words. It overheats regularly and can generally slow down shoots for 6 to 10 minutes while you wait for it to recover from a "blue screen of death" style reboot.

November 8th, 2010, 03:03 PM	#1
Jeff DePonte Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Honolulu Hawaii Posts: 76	Sony PMW-F3 Will Support Dual-Link HD-SDI Hi Dan, The plot thickens with this new Sony camera. Is there a Dual-Link NanoFlash product to support it? Sony's PMW-F3 Targets Indie Filmmakers Camera Has 35mm CMOS, Will Support Dual-Link HD-SDI RGB Workflow More here: Sony's PMW-F3 Targets Indie Filmmakers \| Studio Daily Aloha... Jeff

November 9th, 2010, 01:24 AM	#4
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Dennis, I agree, this is a very exciting announcement. I have read in other threads where this camera was being described as too expensive and being compared with far lower cost cameras. In my opinion, this new camera should be compared to much higher cost cameras. The following remains to be seen and proven, but I have heard that the sensor in this camera is as good as the sensor in any Sony camera! And we just love it when a new camera comes out that can be improved by adding a nanoFlash. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

November 9th, 2010, 01:25 AM	#5
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Jeff, The nanoFlash and the nano3D are not currently designed to accept Dual Link HD-SDI. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

November 9th, 2010, 12:43 PM	#6
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	The Great New Camera ....Hi Dan: Anyone who does manage to pay $16K US for this camera will not want to downgrade the signal-especially dual link of course, with an 8 bit recording device, when the camera is clearly a 10 bit & 12 bit (Dual Link) capable Cine-Alta type camera.

November 10th, 2010, 12:19 PM	#7
Andrew Stone Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 975	I'm with Mark. The kind of people or rather production houses/companies that would drop this camera into their workflow are already into tethering cameras to high end recording systems. For those lower down in the video film industry ecosystem will be capturing into computers with Kona 3s or the not yet released or field tested Ki Pro Mini or the nanoFlash. Once you get over the limp internal capture specs using the internal recorder, given what the camera is capable of, you have an incredible grab-it-and-go high end "digital cinema" capable camera. Has great potential as a tethered B-camera to high end outfits already in the Sony ecosystem with F35s and SRW-9000s but also as a camera to upsell clients on with out the workflow hassles of another camera that shall remain nameless. Anything that reduces my time in front of a computer in an order of magnitude has my interest. Last edited by Andrew Stone; November 10th, 2010 at 02:15 PM.

November 8th, 2010, 03:16 PM	#2
Ned Soltz Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Teaneck, NJ Posts: 659	I was at that briefing today along with the Studio Daily writer. He did an excellent job of summarizing our briefing. Note that the F3 will support 10-bit 4:2:2 over single link SDI. We need to await the optional and as yet unpriced firmware upgrade to support dual link RGB. But what was nice to hear is that Sony specifically mentioned NanoFlash as one of the options for higher quality images from the camera. Ned Soltz

November 8th, 2010, 09:03 PM	#3
Dennis Dillon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hobe Sound, Florida Posts: 213	I have been waiting for this for years. Ever since I placed 35 mm adapters on various cameras and wished for the day of a real camera, not a still camera, could use larger sensors and accommodate PL mounted lens. And less than 40K. I'll have a chance to see it and put it through some paces in the next few weeks and will share my experiences. I plan on placing multiple units in our kit.

November 11th, 2010, 03:54 PM	#9
Luben Izov Major Player Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: White Rock Posts: 254	I am with Doug on this! Just because is available doesn't mean that will be used by everyone. It is very good to have that option and If I ever need that, I would rent the necessary equipment and do the job. Other then that, NF is just perfect for F3. Mark, when was the last time you recorded 10-12bit for a payed job? Even with 8bit 280Mbps on NF, NF media passes every time the QC for Big Screen or TV when intercut with RED or F35 so far!, and that is the area where I make my living and using NF very successful. I would love to get F3, just don't know if I would need the full package or not. I have an excellent set of prime Nikon Nikkor lenses and if I am capable of using them with F3, that would be awesome. Also, I hope Sony would provide an stereoscopic lens for F3 so that could be used for 3D with NF 3D. Does anyone know the answer on those questions of mine? Thank you Cheers

November 11th, 2010, 05:13 PM	#10
Bruce Schultz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Malibu, CA Posts: 480	You probably wouldn't want a stereoscopic lens for this camera as that would only give you a 1/2 resolution double image on one sensor. The prototype Sony had at IBC and the Panasonic 3DA1 are really two cameras inside and deliver two discreet full resolution data streams either for internal record or outboard to devices like Nano Flash or KiPro recorders. This allows you to work with two separate full rez data streams in post for convergence and other adjustments to the 3D image. Baking in a left/right image on one data channel prohibits all of the necessary fine tuning in post, so it's really just a home use device to display little junior spilling his milk - again - in 3D. Panasonic makes a camcorder with a stereo lens attachment if you are interested in that at a price somewhere around $1200 USD.

November 11th, 2010, 07:02 PM	#11
Luben Izov Major Player Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: White Rock Posts: 254	Thank you Bruce! Thank you for that clarification. Do you have an info regarding Nikon Nikkor Prime/tele lenses with proper adapter on F3? Thank you Cheers

November 12th, 2010, 11:34 AM	#14
Dennis Dillon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hobe Sound, Florida Posts: 213	8 bit 10 bit 12 bit. That is the beauty of this camera. One camera, different recorders, including the internal one. So 7 K for Cine Deck + 3K for CD Nano + 16 K F3= 26K for an SR type camera. I have yet to see a frame from this camera , but I do know that Sony has been working this camera for quite some time. They have gone over RED and ARRI and other offerings to come up with a camera for the professional, not the " I have 2k+ invested in a DSLR, so now I'm a pro", crowd. Im so sick and tired of producers who see the 5D on Vimeo and say, lets use that and save $$$. Please use a real monitor when evaluating an image. BTW the 7.5 OLED from Sony has beaten my TV Logic and Flanders hands down. It costs more when you add in all the shots that do not pass, and have to reshoot. Audio?? TC?? Consumer connections???. Before the DSLR crowd jumps on me, let me state that I have put more DSLR images on broadcast TV than most. Not a boast, just reality. While I love shallow DOF (Been doing this for three years with XDCAM 700/800/Pro 35/Zeiss Master Primes & Letus/EX/Zeiss combos), the Canon has a lot of moments that work terrificly (Great in Car Cam), but when it fails as a "Pro" camera, I take a big hit from my clients. Sony has stood by as Canon and Panasonic and Red (Still waiting for latest) have shown their hand and now they will show theirs. Note: After three years of mixing EX CF and Optical media, I still believe XD Optical is the best, and I always move the flash type SD, CF, or SxS to optical. I can tell you many tales of lost or disabled HDs that sit on a shelf while off line is completed and $$$$$$ of $$$$$$$$ are lost. If this happens to you once, you will live with that for the rest of your career as a bartender. No offense to mixologists.

November 12th, 2010, 11:46 AM	#15
Andrew Stone Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 975	Hi Mark, I know a few people that use the Cinedeck recorder and while they say it is good in some ways, they all issue reports that would make most not want to rely on it unless "production" tells you to use it. One of the big issues they report is the thing hanging. Crashing in other words. It overheats regularly and can generally slow down shoots for 6 to 10 minutes while you wait for it to recover from a "blue screen of death" style reboot.