Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

If it's 4096 wide (though it might be 3840), S-Video, in a 2:3 aspect sensor, it would be 2731 tall. That would be 11.8 MP.

If the camera records 4K from an S-Video window in a FF sensor, the width would be 1.6x 4096 = 6554. In a 2:3 sensor, the height would then be 4369. That would be a 28.6MP sensor.

RED EPIC/SCARLET-X does 4K at S-Video and 5K at roughly APS-H size, so there is precedent for this sort of thing.

There are a few ways for Canon to skin this cat.

BTW, marketers like MP because it increases with the square of the linear size. But we humans perceive resolution linearly. A 4K wide still isn't a huge loss of resolution compared to the 5616 wide stills from the 5D2, but 11.8MP sounds a whole lot worse than 21MP.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

David, you made an excellent case for this on the D800 thread, but a spec I'm very curious about on the 5DIII is the sensor width: 5760 = exactly 3x1920.

Care to chime in on the potential significance of this; on the face of it Canon seems to have arranged the sensor configuration of a stills camera to in some way improve video requirements. ie: the 1mp bump was specifically to produce superior video scaling, in which case it seems Canon is taking us video folk pretty seriously in this release.

What is this spec likely to mean for how video is arrived at? Am I reading too much into this?

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Josh, I don't think you're reading too much into the 3x1920 width. With square pixels that allows a 3x1080 height in Movie Mode.

I'm thinking that Canon isn't necessarily reading all the pixels into the DIGIC 5 DSP. It's possible that the chip allows the reading of three summed lines of pixels. That way the chip, lines, and processing don't need to all be 3x faster. It can treat a 3x3 area as one super pixel, reducing aliasing dramatically. The optical anti-aliasing filter would still be a bit too sharp, but the aliasing would be much better controlled and the light sensitivity much better than with the line skipping method.

I don't know for a fact that is what they are doing. It's just an educated guess.

Frankly, it would be a great way to deliver nice looking video as well as crisp photos from the same system.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Very interesting... can't wait to see some full res comparisons of the 5DIII against the Nikons... could this sensor configuration give the Canon a meaningful advantage. If so, how will the 1DX stack up?

It's curious indeed that Canon hasn't made any mention of the sensor width matching 3xHD. Perhaps they don't wish to antagonize stills photographers (the primary market for the camera) by highlighting how the sensor *appears to have made* a clear concession to video demands.

Addendum: Jon do you ever sleep?

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I sleep, but I usually don't remember it. :)

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I don't know if it is hilarious or sad, but the sensor with the best pixel management is inside a smartphone:

http://europe.nokia.com/PRODUCT_META...Whitepaper.pdf

Even at the end of the digital Zoom In, the HD image is composed out of 8mp+ with full RGB. Not to mention the ability to derive multiple field of views from a single lens.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I've been following the announcement and this thread along with lots of stuff all over the web - but I don't think this 5DMkIII video has been mentioned yet on DVinfo. Sure, like one of the official Canon films, it features yet another sport I've no interest in - but some of the shots look pretty good to me!


EDIT: Updating Vimeo Link to a newer version.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

OK :)

What about thos EOS C I have heard of?

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

After waiting so long for the 5D Mark III, I guess I was hoping for even more improvements over the orginal 5D Mark II.

The problem with moire, especially when filming moving ripples on water, has been a bit of headache in some scenes and hopefully with the Mark III it will be a thing of the past.

Are the other improvements enough to make me want to buy the Mark III, or would it be better to stick to an extra couple of Mark II bodies or/plus lenses for a similar price? Decisions, decisions! :)

The biggest factor for me is the latest Nikon D800, which also has a great range of features for video and stills.

I'm looking forward to trying both the Nikon D800 and Canon 5D Mark III to see how they truly compare in a variety of situations for serious photo & video work.

If anyone has managed to already get their hands on both models, I'd be interested to read their views.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Canon doesn't lower prices.....they do offer instant rebates and I expect to see those coming or continuing for the mk II.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

They had me at "headphone jack."

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

The dedicated (7D-type) Video Start/Stop button on the new Mark III is a nice feature, but it may cause some problems for me. I use my thumb to access the start/stop function on the Mark II when I am filming underwater, and the higher point of the button on the Mark III body might prevent me from reaching it when inside the Scuba housing.

A question for anyone who has the 5D Mark III: Can the Menu be set so that the central "Set" button inside the Quick Control Dial can also start & stop video function (like it does on the Mark II), or can you ONLY start & stop via the newly placed small buton inside the video function toggle lever?

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

That's a great addition which we've all been craving for a long time, Chris. However, I tend to record sound seperately more often with the 5D (it provides the cleanest recordings), so am able to plug my headphones directly into the Zoom H4, or the Sony WRR-805 and WRR-810 headphone sockets, to monitor sound.

On the occasions when I record external mics directly into the 5D, I also use the Sescom LN2MIC-ZMH4-MON 3.5mm Line to Mic with 25dB Attenuator for Zoom H4N with Headphone Monitoring Jack. This avoids the hassle of having to match seperate source sound recordings during post editing, but I've never been able to also avoid some kind of hiss when recording to a DSLR, even with added extras like the Sescom cables.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Speaking of audio, I'm hoping my Tascam DR-100 can go from line out into a dialed-down setting on the 5D3. Or a padded cable. I'll then have some sync audio at 16 bits, and a master track on the Tascam at 24 bits, if I need better S/N. Zoom H4n should be similar, I'd imagine. Riding gain on one of these should be easier than at the camera, also.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Then we're talking about different things. It sounds like you're saying 95% of DSLR sales are for non-professionals (seems off to me, but I'll agree that amatuers are the majority of sales). I'm just talking about 5Dii sales.

If you broke up the people who own a 5Dii into three groups: 1. video the reason to purchase; 2. video not affected purchase; & 3. video tipped the scale for purchase. I think 1 + 3 are greater than 2. All the professional still guys that I've talked to who have a 5Dii are in group 3 & not 2.

The real question is how large is group 1. To me the interest on these forums, the Televisual top ten rental lists, the AF100, FS100, F3, & C300 tell me that group 1 is a sizable group & valid market.

---

I agree, we each need different things. For me I do too much live video that it isn't a real video camera unless it gives me live video out.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

The cinema and TV folks will certainly find clean HDMI out useful without a doubt. Not sure about everyone else though. I'm considering jumping over to the D800 from the 5dMkII for that reason alone but I realize I may be in the minority. The improvements in both cameras still need to be proven in the field though so I wouldn't expect a tsunami of buyers either way until we get more than the videos provided by marketing efforts.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Zach, I'm referring to video-capable DLSRs. The Canons, Nikons, Sonys, etc. But I'd still bet that the 5Dii specific numbers are still around 10% max. as purchased for dedicated video platforms. I've met maybe a dozen people with the Mkii and only one purchased it primarily for video. Many owners of the Mkii show up in my class to learn how to shoot video with it, and have barely touched filming with them because they found the footage shot "too jerky" or strobing, since they're photographers that think of shutter speed in terms of altering exposure.

Whether or not video capability influenced their purchase or not, I think it just too nebulous. It's hard to find competing products that DON'T also shoot video these days and buyers just say... "why not?" There's not a whole lot of options out there for FF stills, and many photogs REALLY want that capability. In the next few months, Canon and Nikon will add four new options, and that's great.

Ultimately, who knows, really, what this fraction of buyers are? I don't think even Canon does.

IMHO, Canon focused WAY more of its efforts in upgrading the stills side of the Mkiii than the video side, and maybe that alone indicates their audience. They could have easily put zebras and peaking in there, if they wanted to really sway some video-centric buyers. Or even NDs.

I give zero credence to the whole "they didn't want to cannibalize their video market" crowd. The DSLRs are a fraction of the price of the C300, and those of us that have gone through the pain of learning to shoot video on DSLR can NOT go back to an 1/3" sensor pro video cam. And some pros will own both a DSLR and a longer-clip small-sensor cam.

Nikon throwing their hat in the ring will bring some freshness to Canon's lineup, for sure, if they want to continue to attract the low-budget filmmaker crowd. Cue the "Dueling Banjos" music.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Exactly, I'm waiting for field testing to see if the D800's HDMI will be a noticeable improvement in video, and if the refinements in the video compression on the 5DIII are worthwhile. I do have a budget for another camera shortly here, but I want to see some pixel peeping eye candy before I make any judgments.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Hi Tony, I shot with the 7D and on my Ikelite housing they put an arm that trigger the start/stop and you don't need to move your hand from the hadle. I can trigger video and photo without moving my hand.

...but I would also like to know if you can change the video trigger to other buttons... Especially to the shutter so you can use a cabel remote.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Guys, I live in New York not far from B&H and Adorama. I have spoken to employees in the photo section many times, before I purchased my DSLR, when I purchased it, and afterwards. Here is the scoop:

DSLRs are very popular with videographers. However, they told me that most of the people coming in to buy DSLRs are photographers, not video people.

So according to my unscientific poll at two of the largest camera retailers in the world, lots of videographers and video enthusiasts have been buying DSLRs, but the majority of DSLRs are purchased by photographers and photo enthusiasts. (Sorry for the redundant sentence.)

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Thank you Kenneth for emphasizing something I've been trying to get folks to realize since Oct. 2008.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I agree that the primary purchaser of the model is intended to be a still shooter, but Canon is also intending this camera along with the entire EOS line serve as their low end large chip video fleet to. Evidence ? They don' t have camera like the VG10/VG20 models or FS100 rig, and they are actively, now, pushing these cameras as their models for those purposes. Thus, because of the that marketing choice, we as users do have the right to complain about the things that are lacking. If these are intended for still purposes only, why so much time devoted at DVInfo, to those cameras ?

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Fair point, but I still think even that would be seen as lacking in a DSLR as far as stills go. It's what I meant by to engineer a camera for quality video AND stills, it's difficult not to compromise one.
Interesting thought, and I can see the logic.

But there is a snag, and that would be a compromise as far as lenses go. If you bought primarily for stills (and FF), the windowing for s35 would make them all far more telephoto for the windowed sensor. Ideally, you'd need a second set of lenses for video, matched to s35 coverage. It's possible, but I can see a lot of people just deciding to get a second camera, specifically designed for video!
It could be very relevant, but there's only so much you can deduce from the numbers.

Have you read Alan Roberts report on the C300? ( http://blog.creativevideo.co.uk/wp-c...an_roberts.pdf )

What's relevant to this discussion are guesses he makes about how the 720p output on the C300 MAY be derived from the sensor - bottom of page 13. He wonders if it's exactly what you're proposing here (sensor dimensions exactly three times the output resolution)
Of course, what "would probably not be acceptable" in a broadcast video camera may be OK for video from a DSLR! Obviously (as I've said before) going to 4x1920 by 4x1080 would theoretically be a very good way to go. But maybe 3x is all that current technology allows......?

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I'm certainly not implying that the online video community shouldn't complain, criticize, or ask for a given capability on a DSLR. My reply was more directed to a discussion above about the primary market for DSLRs and the percentage of photographers vs. videographers who buy them, I guess in relation to how much Canon targets video features when rolling out a new model.

I do think that video is still more of an add-on feature to a DSLR, albeit a much more important one than 4-5 years ago.

In regard to your point about Canon not having a video-dedicated large sensor camera like VG-20, I think that will be remedied by the impending C-line of cameras. I expect that I won't be able to afford the first camera that comes out (I am not counting the C300.), but I think eventually Canon might have an entire range of C-cameras like they do for DSLRs.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

That's the point I've been trying to make for a few pages on this thread, Kenneth, so thanks for your feedback and observations. DSLR video shooters, despite all of the websites, books, YouTube & Vimeo videos touting, analyzing, and prognosticating on DSLR video, represent a very small percentage of DSLR camera buyers.

I, too hope for a dedicated line of EOS Cinema cams, but I fear that the same small numbers of buyers will keep the cameras in a higher profit-margin territory, and sell for much higher premiums than the DSLRs with their compromised sensors, features, and form-factors (and 10x to 100x the volume).

Now, I know that I WOULD pay $4-5k for a FF, 2k sensor video camera with XLR, scopes, zebras, NDs, etc. recording to MXF. But twice that? No, I'd probably make due with the 5D3 and all of its compromises and spend the extra $ on lighting, sound, or payments on a nicer car, accepting the "75% as good" footage I might get out of a DSLR.

It's simple. Smaller numbers of buyers mean higher prices or lesser features on the video side of DSLR. I'm not complaining. I'm much happier shooting large sensor video than I was when, umm... I... wasn't. And knowing that there's FOUR new FF DSLR camera bodies from two staunch competitors coming out this Spring that happen to shoot video, makes me very happy indeed.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I do wonder if making things more video oriented is quite difficult, for various obscure reasons.
Sure adding zebras, peaking and other Magic Lanternish stuff seems fairly straightforward. But chucking on other things may just have started pushing it up into 4.5-5000 territory where they didn't want it to be.
That was Red's lament about the Scarlet, if I recall: "We thought we could work out how to mass produce a pro-sumer 4k cam-corder. We were wrong". So Canon aren't going to step too far outside this camera's safety zone in any case.
The FS100 seems like the first real attempt to lure DSLR cheapskates ( o / )up a little bit. Plus, as mentioned, you don't have to try too hard too please, low budget filmmakers anyway. They'll come for the picture:price ratio and work around everything else.
What am I talking about? I don't know really. I'll be curious to see where the C100 lands in all this I suppose. I'm worried it can't be so good that it'll rival the C300. But then what'll it be? Stuff for another thread perhaps.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

It has been written all over that the 5D ii was a surprise sales success to everyone (including Canon) when it comes to its video ability. But this doesn’t add to the number of cameras sold to photographers as much as takes away from the sales of camcorders.

I meet quite a few photographers and I can tell you most have not even tried the video function on their camera (regardless of maker) and the few who have tried it, quickly realized that computer wise, they are woefully short in horsepower.

Going from a proper video camera and editing computer to a DSLR is much easier than a photographer learning DSLR shooting and techniques, equipment, video-editing software and hardware. Can you think of a camera that requires more add-ons and whiz bangs?

This camera wasn’t a success because photographers felt they could get into the video business, it was videographers using what was previously sold as a digital camera that oh-by-the-way shoots pretty darn good video.

If we are being honest with ourselves, it would be the LAST camera type you would recommend to a beginner, unless you REALLY didn’t like them. So yes, for any ex-spouse it’s perfect.

I’m probably like most on here and own a couple of DSLR cameras. I have a T3i and 5D ii and like their capabilities. I carry one on a day to day basis, mostly for photos but it can serve as a back-up in a pinch, which it has. But it is far from the first camera I would grab and just about the last camera you would want to hand-off to an assistant to capture an important moment.

The niche, and yes it’s a small one, is the cinematic or creative one where low light and/or shallow depth of field are the norm. Which may I add is getting rather old and can’t wait until I’m no longer subjected to out of focus footage being portrayed as “art” (I also waited too long to buy a slider, I hate that move now too.)

The truth of the matter is we all should probably be enrolled in some sort of 12 step program for new camera junkies. I know I have a problem. I already own five Canon cameras and have been going over this thread like it contained the next Power Ball winning numbers. Some of the calculations for sensor size and possible image quality on here make my head hurt and seeing the times posted makes me think there are others who may want to join my new program.

The market for professional camcorders is small and the market for DSLR video is tiny. I live in upstate New York in a county with over 800,000 people and if you want to actually look at XA10, XF100 or XF300 you need to make a trip to New York City. (Or you can call me and I could show you mine but that just reinforces my need to get cracking on the first step of the program.) For that matter I cannot even find a CF card locally that will work in the XF camera.

But I will be able to get my hands on a 5D iii at the local camera store because this town if full of photographers and this is really a digital camera that just happens to shoot video. I called my local camera store yesterday and when they found out who it was they started laughing. “We knew you would be calling and we already put your name of the first one.” That was a big relief.

Now that I know where I am in line I need to put my 5D ii on Ebay pronto before everyone else does…….I think I may need an intervention.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

David Chilson = post of the day. And it ain't even 9am yet!

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

+1, David!

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I think this is a case of the blind scientists & the elephant, we each only can report on what is in front of us. If we want to know what the elephant really looks like, we need solid data of the entire beast.

If Canon doesn't know what the 5Dii elephant looks like, they need to hire someone to look at the entire beast. Are video people making up 10% in sales from customers that would never have bought a DSLR? More? Less? Are they missing customers who want to buy, but need more video features? Are people buying DSLRs instead of XF300 cameras? Are people buying DSLRs for video & using them for stills? Buying for stills & using for video? ... ? ... ? ... ?

If Canon doesn't have these answers then they're making a mistake by having their "perfect Pepsi" when they should be looking for their "perfect PepsiS."

Malcolm Gladwell on spaghetti sauce | Video on TED.com

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Dang it Dave Chilson, I thought I had gotten over that need of a camera fix---- but now that you brought it up, I find my self starting to have that old feeling again.... yikes............

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Interesting stuff. I'm not sure it makes your argument though. In this example the elephant includes the entire Canon DSLR range at least, and probably their other cameras as well. There's another dimension I think the lecture didn't cover. I'd argue the electronics industry at large has been doing these sorts of things for the last decade at least. Ever increasing numbers of lines and price points bamboozle customers..But they've actually gone one better than those food industry examples and discovered X number of perfect Pepsis is trumped by X number of Imperfect Pepsis.
I'm not going to say this is outright cynical behaviour. There's surely some practical reasons in there as well. But I think by now electronics companies know that given a customer with, for example, five different criteria for a camera purchase, show them three camera options that cover only three of their criteria each in different combinations and they'll still buy one. These cameras then cover other customers' different critera in similarly imperfect ways. The set of features in the range overlaps imperfectly. No line is made entirely redundant by any other. No one spending less than beaucoup bucks gets entirely what they want. And even then...

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I suspect that Canon knows their own market a lot better than any of us possibly could. Huge multinational corps spend million$ in market research, and keep a close eye on what their competitors are doing.

Canon has always played conservative, and never been on the bleeding edge of anything. They typically let the other big boys come out with something, then they spend time developing, R&D'ing it, then bringing similar (and often better) technology out, sometimes as long as a generation later. Canon didn't come up with the idea of putting video in a DSLR body. Nikon did with the D90. A lot of folks forget about that. Canon improved DLSR video (over Nikon's implementation) with the 5D2, made huge leaps with the 7D and the 3 Rebel bodies, updated the firmware of the 5D2 at mid-point to give that body some of these improvements (leaving us 7D owners in the cold, apparently), and then developed the 5D3 that clearly makes more evolutionary change in the world of DSLR video.

I'd love to say that "this is Canon's game to lose" vs. Nikon, but I don't think a few thousand disgruntled Canon video shooters will make much of a dent on 5D2 sales if some of us move to the Nikon camp. Now, if the D800 ends up cutting-into their market-share because several tens of thousands of customers believe that that FF body shoots superior STILLS (or decides that the $500 extra the 5D3 costs them vs. the D800 isn't worth it)... then Canon will have to react to that.

The C300 draws a very visible line of demarcation between old, conservative Canon and a new breed of "bleeding edge" thinking, courting Hollywood with it. As has been said here, I sure hope it trickles down to a more-affordable C body for those of us that can't justify $16k for a video-centric large sensor camera. We'll have to wait and see...

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Can anyone confirm if the 5DMkIII has a "crop" feature in video mode like some DSLRs? (e.g. 3x digital zoom effect).

I've seen some debate around the web as to whether or not it has this useful feature - but I can't help thinking Canon would have spelled it out very clearly in the official specs if indeed it does!

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Chris Hurd has posted that it does not.
I find this unfortunate and wonder two things: why was this handy feature not included when a lower end model T3i has it, and also, could it be implemented in future firmware updates?
to me, it seemed like an advance like this should be included in all cameras hence forth... but then, i also thought the new 24-70 would include IS. silly me!

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

I had a 5DIII in may hands yesterday on the Canon stand at the Focus on Imaging show at the NEC in Birmingham here in the UK (the show finishes at 17:00 today if anyone still wants to pop along). I looked through all the menus that I could find related to video & didn't see any HD crop feature like the 600D/T3i. Otherwise the camera looked & felt great. Slightly re-arranged controls from the 5DII but felt much the same. There isn't so much space for fitting a loupe certainly not with a stick-on frame. Zacuto's gorilla plate that attaches to the tripod mount for fixing the Z-finder may be OK.

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

The only reason, I can think of, that the video section of the markIII is not radically evolved, is the iminent arrival of the 4k DSLR. Maybe within the 1st half of the year.

This also maybe the reason for the lack of 10bit out or 1080p50/60 on the C300

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Yep, the 4k EOS-C is the only reason I put a hold on my intended 1DX purchase. Hopefully it's not all vaporware (just like the original Scarlet).

-- peer

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

Here's an APS-H sensor Canon developed. 120 mega-pixels... wow. Maybe something similar is planned for the 4k DSLR, who knows? Canon develops world's first 120 megapixel APS-H CMOS sensor: Digital Photography Review

Re: Canon USA Announces EOS 5D Mark III
 

8-bits on the C300 was due to the development schedule. The C300 used an existing DSP. That defined the codec, bitrate, and 4:2:2, 8-bit signal. I think it's clear that the next Cinema camera will have a new DSP and better back-end formats.