Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Dylan I totally agree. That's why, I find odd that they announce a 4K camera in DSLR form. Unless is going to be 30+MP, giving full RGB 4K and doubles as a FF body for photo shooting. In that case it will be around $8K, because no photographer will pay more for just a FF body. And will need at least another couple thousand dollars extra gear for proper video.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Probably the owner of that Ferrari doesn't like hotels. For some reason, the 5D Mark II had the success that we all know. A lot of people used to work with 35mm are embracing the DSLR shooting because there are cases where only a DSLR is the best tool.

This idea of people of video who think the world must be designed in their form factor is annoying and antidemocratic. Who wants to do art knows very well what the word freedom means. More educated perspective would be really welcome. Merci.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Aren't you the man with the right information channel for video?

Then, if you write that, I am intended to just believe.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Apparently Dylan's the man if he's going to NAB in a Gulfstream!

In all honesty I just made a guess. If I really knew, then I'd be under NDA
and I wouldn't be able to post about it. Since it's billed as a screening, it
might be nothing more than a showing of "When You Find Me" by Bryce
Howard, with the director (and her dad?) in attendance. That would be
pretty special as far as Canon is concerned, so maybe that's what this is.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

My thoughts are that it is probably the 4K DSLR, but...

...If it is something like a hypothesized C100. It could very well be a fixed lens camera with a S35 sensor.

Crazy? Maybe but there is some precedent for it. Look at the XL-H1 followed by the XH-A1. Canon is even putting Large sensors in point and shoots now (G1X). Once upon a time there was quite an interest in a fixed lens Red Scarlett. The market exists and it has yet to be filled by anything.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Powered zooms would be cool too.

And while it's true that Canon flies me to NAB in a Gulfstream... they don't land to let me out.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Here's my gut take.
Whether it's this particular NAB event or not, I think Canon, soon after the "unexpected" adoption of the 5DII by so many film makers and the subsequent DSLR revolution it virtually fostered, began developing a dedicated DSLR movie camera.

It would be a very smart to capitalize on their EF lens line.
It would fit with their new "EOS movie" brand.
It doesn't have to do 4k.
It will be considerably less than, say, Scarlet.
The DSLR form factor is anything but Passe, just ask Charles P or Shane S how revolutionary that factor has been along side bigger systems.
Imagine the new Manfrotto system (developed specifically for Canon DSLRs/EF lenses) on a dedicated DSLR movie camera with EF lenses, and you really have something revolutionary for a newly but well developed niche.
I bet it's a niche Canon wants to own.

Add 1080p 60 and sign me up for to of them with Manfrotto follow focus.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

The #1 reason that DvSLRs are here to stay?

...videographers get to leverage the high volume of the photography market and purchase large sensor video cameras at still camera prices.

Canon could choose to offer the features of the 5D Mark III in a dedicated video camera body, but there's no way they'd price it at $3,499 USD. If you're prepared to spend $5K+, you're in the large sensor video camera market. If you want to spend $799 - $3,499, you're buying a DSLR.

That's why I love the DSLR form factor. It's because of economics, not ergonomics. :)

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I think it depends on how you define the niche Canon wants to own. If it is the GH2 - video forum crowd then they better price it right. (low) If it is the high end that always needs a few "little" cameras then the price will lose the first group.

Canon could have owned the market already with a 5DMKIII that "went there" but that is not their corporate approach. I am sure this will be a nice camera but it is the option for a video person to also own a great still camera that really makes the vDSLR purchase decision a slam dunk.

In my view, Canon should offer a $4,500 5DMKIII that has all of the video bells and whistles along with the great still options. I would rather pay more than have them not offer the good options at all on the camera.

I would buy two 5DMKIIIv versions. But that would violate the global rule that you can't get everything you want in one camera!

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

i agree with you Tim, Price is not a matter on a 5D3... if it packs all the features we want, I don't mind to pay a little more.
I think Canon just want the user to buy a camera and a video camera. But it doesn't work for me, because end up i will not buy both. I am seriously considering the FS100 to be a full camcorder instead.

I'll wait to March 13 Sony announcement and Apr 15 Canon Announcement.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

But to me it is still a stills camera. If the emphasis is on cinematic use then why is theire a shutter button top and bottom? How many 5D MK2 owners who bought their cameras for video actually use it for stills? Maybe a 1D with 4K video function?
I'd expect with a $6000 price tag.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I bought the 5D2 explicitly for video in late 2008. Before the D90 started this whole thing, I didn't have $500 budgeted for a DSLR. Large sensor, cinematic video changed the whole value proposition for me.

Yesterday I shot 99% video. Today I shot 99% stills. :)

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I use a 5DMKII solely for still photography. The video has too many issues for me. I would like to upgrade to the MKIII but only if the video would allow it to be good enough to justify and for me to use. The 5DMKII is that good of a stills camera that I do not need an upgrade for still use.

I am not a big market segment (feet in both stills and video). I would really need to know the C-DSLR would be good enough as a stills camera before adopting it to replace the 5DMKII.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Video issues? Yep.

I'm traveling "light and solo" and brought the VAF, follow focus, loupe, shoulder rig, and a monopod to make shooting video enjoyable and worthwhile. Moire, jello, and focus are the big three issues.

BTW, I just got the monopod and I really like it in combination with handles and a loupe. When walking, it gives some more mass for added stability. I can tuck it into my belt to carry the weight and be agile. (I untuck to walk.) And, of course, I can extend it to touch the ground when I'm stationary with a longer lens. I think I'm finally happy with a DSLR kit that I can carry-on an airliner.

Of course, the 5D3 would be a step up: No VAF to hassle with between video and photos/ultra-wides. Half the jello would still be welcome. And who can't use two more stops of light? If the codec is improved, that's another win.

The next horizon to me isn't 4K, it's more bit depth, if not RAW. And some improved focusing tools.

I'm still not sure if I'll upgrade to the Mark III, get a 2nd gen crop cam, or wait for the mystery EOS C camera. The footage I shot yesterday on the 5D2 and the falling sun looks darn good!

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I am one of them that want a camera that has quality like 5D... also a camera that can take good picture, so i don't need to buy two separate camera.

i use to use XHA1, i only use that for job.. i never use it other than that.... even sometimes i try use it for family video... but end up all footage stay on tape and never watch again...

after i got a 5D... i can use it for work, video and photo... and other than that, i can still take it when i travel and regular use

but i am now thinking to go back to having a professional video camera... 5D are everywhere.... even a guest use 5D in a wedding.... it makes us less professional when using it for work.

I like to have a EOS camcorder, at least i can use all my EF lenses, C300 is just too expensive

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I agree. I'm not familiar with a RAW workflow, only the limitations of 8bit. A decent 10bit onboard recording as well as 8bit MPEG2 50Mbps(+) for fast turnaround would be ideal for me.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I'm betting a dollar that it is the 4K DSLR that they showed at the November event.......but, to cover all the bases, I bet a dollar it's the 4K version of the C300 that won't come out 'til the end of the year.....and to be safe, I'll bet a dollar that Ms. Howard will show her film. There......I think I got it covered!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

My vote is it's the C100 (or whatever they call it). A less-featured sibling of the C300. Same sensor and ergonomics. No SDI/genlock. No vectorscope. H.264 codec and i-frame options of the 5D3. No monitor/handle deal-ios. Either no XLR or fewer options on the sound side.

Soo... whoever is closest, and called it first, GETS whatever IS announced on tax day. Riiiight??? ;-) We should start a pool!

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I'm inclined to agree with you. They have always 'disappointed' when it comes to price. Even the Canon G1X - Canon's late entry to APS-C mirrorless - is more expensive than the NEX-5n or GX3. The T3i DSLR is in the same ballpark, but with far more features.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Since Canon as the no1 photo brand, charges a premium over other brands. It's common practice with most companies. Sony used to do that - probably still does - in consumer and professional video for decades. My problem is that Canon seems to overprice its pro video products without being No 1.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

My guess if is not just a screening:
4k with Raw

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

It would not be H.264/mpeg 4 codec....It would be the same codec as the C300

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

When the Canon 5Ds video first appeared the most surprised group of people was the Canon video camera folk.

They probably couldn't believe it and I'd say they complained bitterly to the Head Honcho.

Imo it's been shown they work in separate vacuums from each other and it's all to do with trickle down technology in each others field.

HH wanted to them to share one large Canteen but it goes way back to the Ninjas.

Cheers.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

If a DSLR comes with the Canon XF code, that's a major win. It's a true broadcast 50mbps, 4:2:2 codec. I'd be all over that. I have an FS100, and it's a great camera, but the AVCHD codec is a bit lacking.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Haven't we learned from RED that it's very difficult to do that much video processing and recording inside a housing as small as DSLR? And that the other caveat about crunching that much math and moving that many pixels around creates a LOT of heat?

Not sure if a 4K 50mb/s codec DSLR is even technically feasible outside a test-bench.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Good point and which shows that in my mind, we are not ready for 4k on a large scale.

Looking back at the dawn of the HD era, there was a flood of under resolved and overly compressed products that were released just to say they were HD and for sale. Now that it is shown that true HD with lower levels of compression looks just great even for cinema.

At this point I see 4k as pure marketing and it would be shame for Canon to release a 4k DSLR when they jury is still out on the HD versions.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I think that's true, but a way round it would be to record RAW. In which case much of the processing etc can be removed from camera to computer and become a post operation.
I don't think there's any question of a 4k 50Mbs codec is there?

The 50Mbs codec works very well for processed 1080, but it's a 1080 codec, period. Any 4k recording would need something totally different.

A camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs would (IMO) be a very good balance. Use the 50Mbs codec for broadcast work which has a relatively quick turn around time, and 4k RAW for most post control and when there's time and resources to do it.

It should be possible to do both satisfactorily with the C300 chip - but is this a DSLR? "DSLR" implies a camera optimised for stills, and the 8 megapixel chip is low for high quality stills.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

4K can be compressed to 50 Mbps - it can be compressed to 0.5 Mbps if you want it to happen. Nothing in the compression specs forbid it.

The interesting thing is that the 50Mbps 4:2:2 Interframe specification was adopted by broadcasters for 1080/720 video (defined by SMPTE) only, as David mentioned. To get roughly the same 'quality' at 4K, one would need approximately 200-250Mbps - but then again those deciding the specs will also have to look at the current broadcast pipeline, technologies and bandwidth available, not to mention that 4K on home screens are a wasted effort (at present) at regular viewing distances and light levels.

The DCI lower limit for compression, for 2K and 4K, are exactly the same. I find that ludicrous.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.

If it is a DSLR it possible that will derive 4K from 30Mpxls and at the same time be a full fledged still DSLR. Canon needs to address Nikon's D800 sooner or later. So if its not at NAB, it must be within a year.

If I try to summarize most opinions, it will either be a C100 1080p 50Mbits, resembling C300, but with less feature and (hopefully) more reasonably priced or a 4K Raw DSLR with a price TBA
I would say 60%-40% it will be a 4K DSLR.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

It should be a 4K DSLR for B cam applications in DSLR form factor. Great for rigging shots. Price is definately going to be $10k in my guess

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I'm not sure that's true about the processing - I'd have thought H264 is more processor intensive than MPEG2? Most of the effort goes into processing the effort off the chip.

But I wasn't really thinking of a DSLR anyway when I referred to a "camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs" - rather a big brother to the C300.
And from elsewhere, the following:

More pixels are coming
A suggestion that a high megapixel camera is coming from Canon, and could be introduced near the end of 2012. Alongside the camera would come new ultra wide angle lens(es). It was suggested both a zoom and a prime in the area of 16mm.

I warn that this sort of conjecture will be a regular occurrence going forward I think. There is a large number of people in the community that desire a 35+ megapixel camera from Canon.

NAB 2012?
Some have suggested the upcoming 4K DSLR will be the high megapixel camera. I don’t believe that to be true, as the high megapixel count is definitely a request of the photographic community, and paying for high end video features is probably not something that would make the segment too happy.


Rumour and speculation, obviously, but it would make sense. PRIMARILY for stills, but if twice the 4k pixel count hor and vert it could be read relatively easily, (same method of 2x2 as used in the C300). And whilst the resolution may be "high end video",I doubt most of the other aspects could be described that way, when compared to the C300. "4k high end video" would imply high bit depth RAW - I don't see there being anything like that in any such product.
Missing off that list is the "C500". A C300 but with 4k ability - but not something that can really be called a DSLR. Is NAB really the place to announce what is fundamentally a DSLR?

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

But doesn't Canon's DSLRs already process 1080 at 44Mbps? 50Mbps isn't an issue, like the GH2 hacks show.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I'll go back to my original opinion.
I think the hottest, most competitive camera they could produce would be a dedicated 1080 film making DSLR with the XF codec.

Only the smallest niche of users need or will need 4k. 1080 is and will be, for camera cycles to come, the standard for all but cinematic work.

But give it a 50 mbps 4:2:2 robust codec for grading and green screen, full use of the EF lens line, 35mm full frame field and depth of view and you could have a camera that would be to this market what the original 5DII was three years ago.

With the buttons dedicated to video oriented controls and a battery grip with XLR input and you've bridged the divide.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

That is exactly the camera I am hoping for and why I have not rushed out to buy a 5DMkIII. As to if we will get it I am currently rather cynical. After all, Canon might see it robbing sales from the C300.

However, if Canon don't fill this customer need soon the others surely will.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

So basically, what most of us want is a Canon XF105, but with a large sensor and an EF lens mount. Perhaps in a DSLR body, perhaps not. Methinks you could have a better layout of video-centric controls on an XF body design. All for under $10,000, hopefully a lot less.

The XF105, with its 8-bit, 4:2:2, 50mbps, broadcast quality codec, retails for $4,000. It's hard to believe that the C300, with the same codec, quadrupled in price compared to the XF105. Just how expensive is that large sensor and accompanying hardware? You'd think Canon could figure out a way to squeeze the EF mount and hardware into an XF105 body, maybe even an XF305, for less than $16,000. Sony managed to put a large sensor and an E-mount in the VG10/20, basically a consumer Handicam design. It's hamstrung with an AVCHD codec, but physically a large sensor can fit into a small camcorder.

Maybe that's why there's been such shell-shock over the C300 price.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

There was only sticker shock among those film maker wannabees who expected an Alexa for $5K. The C300 is selling like hot cakes to video professionals.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I'm a 20+ year video professional. $16K is still a lot of $$$ to me. Not saying it isn't worth it.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

$16k is quite a lot for those camcorder features when compare to mk3 which can do pretty close quality to c300 in 1/5 price

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Let me clarify my position a bit.

I'm not saying the C300 isn't worth the price. It has a great codec, a broadcast quality codec, which all professional videographers love. It gets us more work if we have a camera with this ability. Plus, that amazing 4K sensor.

Speaking for myself, I was expecting (hoping?) for something like an XF305 with an interchangeable lens system and a large sensor. I figured - wrongly - that all Canon had to do was basically take an XF305, remove the lens and sensor block, and add the large sensor and lens mount. You know, a lens mount and sensor like that from a $2,000 7D, only aimed for the video market. Heck, they don't even need to supply a lens, we'll take care of that.
Since the XF305 retails for about $7,200, I figured maybe $2-4,000 more in price? After all, it doesn't even come with a lens. I'm sure that alone adds quite a bit to the 305's price.
I was just a bit shocked when the C300 is over twice the price of an XF305. Not just me, but other camera owners I know thought the same.

Obviously, I have no idea how difficult it is for Canon to produce the C300. $16,995 worth of difficulty, apparently.

Jan with Panasonic has supposedly stated they could have built the AF100 with P2 capability - AVC-intra 100 - but that would have added about $2,000 to the final price. I say - build it!!! Even for $4,000 more it'd still be a hell of a bargain.

I just wanted to illustrate why some professionals might have had sticker shock with the C300.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

It is pretty much the ideal evolution for the genre (DSLR filmmakers).

Everyone is aware that the DOF revolution started with the P&S Mini 35 and created an entire industry of spinning glass lens adapters.

Three years ago that industry had an Extinction Level Event with the introduction of the 5DII

Canon has the best/broadest lens line in the world with the EF and Canon shooters are always upgrading their glass.

They've already produced a beautiful small form camera and image with XF100/105.

The DSLR industry is primed and waiting for the perfect union of the XF image, codec and control and the 5D sensor and mount. It would be the crowning achievement in their new brand of EOS filmmaking.

They would sell like nothing else on the market if they hit a similar, comparative price point.