Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Interesting...

They need:

1. A model to compete with AF100 and FS100
2. A 2k - 4k camera

I suspect the 2. option will be presented as they have already said that they'll deliver it. Besides they don't even have to change the sensor for doing that. Also a C300 with a better codec. Seeing as the only reason the C300 has such a "weak" codec is because they didn't have time to implement better processing hardware, maybe they implemented it now. But I don't see how they could do this at this time without totally pissing of everybody who ordered the C300 now. So I doubt very much that this will happen.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I think it's wrong to describe the C300 codec as "weak" - it's seems to be becoming the primary acquisition codec for broadcasters for HD. Surely that doesn't classify as "weak"?

Yes, move into the Alexa class and there is better, which allows more post work, but it really needs RAW etc which is not the same as just a different recording codec. The other advantage of 50Mbs is that it's a common standard, it's widely used and accepted.
Yes, and with lots of orders in the pipeline. That argues that any new product is likely to be radically different to the C300 (and likely very different in price!) and I tend to go along with your previous thinking. Or maybe it won't be a new camera body at all - maybe accessories to bolster the C300?

Because of the sensor specs I personally have been convinced from the start that a 4k model is a question of when rather than if. If it is the subject of the NAB launch, then I'm very surprised we are seeing it so soon.

Just when we were getting over the speculation leading up to the C300 November launch - you have to hand it to Canon......... :-)

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

C300's weakness wasn't the codec but the lack of 10bit out and 1080 50/60p. I guess both will be addressed with the new camera.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

David, although I agree, 50Mbps MPEG2 is a great codec, the sensor is capable of a lot more. The C300 has no way to go beyond 1920x1080 8 bit 4:2:2. It would be nice to have a higher end option for jobs that can afford it. Recorders like the Atmos Ninja show how cheap it can be to implement such an option.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

"Weak". By that I meant a codec or a system that doesn't utilize the sensor potential. Yes, no built in codec does that and compared to other companies and theirs inbuilt codecs the Canons codec is great.

Totally forgot about the 10bit argument. 10bit should be the next upgrade. But if this is going to happen at NAB it's gonna happen really soon. And that's why I doubt it's going to happen. I doubt that the C300 is going to see any upgrades. As David said, it's to early. People haven't even got the C300 they ordered yet. Canon could offer an payable upgrade to the C300 though...

But I think that a lower end model or a 4k model is more likely to come.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

My guess -- and it's only guess -- is that it might be this:

New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development at DVInfo.net

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I don't know........ The link at the head of this thread says:
Being announced at NAB, "a major announcement", and "likely be geared towards the motion picture and television communities" don't really seem to point towards more details of a DSLR that's already been announced in principle? We'll see, you may be right.

Sanjin, there is no denying that the sensor isn't being utilised to it's full potential. But that is not to say the existing codec is "weak". I don't see any upgrade (certainly not this soon) being as incremental as just a bit less compressed 1080p codec, or even 10 bit HD-SDI. I also doubt the likelihood of a "payable upgrade to the C300" - I suspect there is too much hardware involved to make that feasible.

What would be feasible (theoretically) is RAW recording of the full 4k sensor readout. (And have there not already been details for the patent of a Canon RAW codec?) But that's really a completely new camera, if of the same family, not just a codec upgrade. It would be different enough to not annoy existing C300 owners.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I really don't get what they are thinking with that 4K DSLR, totally the wrong form factor, a little like doing this:

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

It can be a broadcast auto focus servo zoom lens for C300 sensor size. Remember canon is a major player in broadcast 2/3 lens.My guess is they are coming with a set of auto focus zoom lenses.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Mike - great photo! Makes the point that's in my mind perfectly!
Interesting idea, but I think that would go down as a bit of a damp squib after being promoted as "a major announcement at NAB". Likewise the market that the C300 is aimed at far less likely to want auto-focus lenses than maybe users of lower end cameras.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

They could be announcing additional lenses to complement their cinema line.

Personally, I think all Canon needs to do is take their L series primes and rehouse theme like Zeiss has done with their CP.2s and then you've really got something!!!

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Canon announced XF300 and then the next year Canon XF100
I think Canon will be announcing C100, a little brother of C300. And it will looks like 1D form... it appear on the C300 poster with a smaller 1D style Cinema EOS behind C300

I don't think Canon will announce just some lenses to make an event like that.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Thomas I had exactly the same reaction when I heard this announcement. You're right, Canon has a history of introducing their top tier model followed by its little brother.

For me, the tricky aspect of this theory arrives when contemplating what features Canon could potentially drop from the C300 to create a C100. The NDs would surely go, along with a number of custom buttons, and the already ad-hoc audio/lcd configuration. I would be delighted if that's the lot!

In the case of the XF300 > XF100, the lens range and chip contingent were both shrunk (from 18x to 10x and 3CMOS to 1CMOS respectively).

The XL-H1 and its sibling, the XH-A1, were also announced in consecutive years. In this case, Canon dropped the interchangeable lens configuration and shoulder mount form factor.

If, as with the XL-H1, the C300 gets a sibling with reduced form factor - but identical chip & codec at half the price - count me in. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but the 5DIII has left many feeling underwhelmed and there is a massive gap between it and the C300 that Sony and Panny have all to themselves.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Same thoughts here.

I suspect we might also loose the electronic viewfinder for the C100 (or whatever it will be called) - but that might be reading too much into that picture. Also, they might omit the excellent XF 50Mbps broadcast codec - I really hope I'm wrong!

I'm another one in that "no mans land", i.e. between:

(1) a new Canon 5DMkIII (can easily afford but will it be right for me as a worthy upgrade to my Canon 7D?)
(2) and a new Canon C300 (can only afford at a big stretch). I'm not sure my (current) clients have deep enough pockets for me to pay for it within 12 months.

My Sony EX3 is 3.5 years old and still my main tool for corporate work - it's more than earned its keep/still going strong but I'm wondering how to plan the next phase for my business. Although the price is right, some aspects of the Sony FS100 and Panasonic AF100 don't please me so I'll be watching this next Canon announcement very closely!

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Canon can't drop too many things from the C300 as it's a very naked design already. It can:

1- change the codec
2- remove the LOG gamma
3- put a slower processor in

4- remove the NDs
5- merge the lcd and the viewfinder into one unit (same as FS100)
6- create a more simple box like design (same as FS100) or put it into a DSLR form (they have many of those laying around so it should be the most cheap option for them...??)
7- use SD instead of CF (don't see how this would improve theirs production costs but that's how it usually goes...)


I think that that's about all they can do to it. Changing the codec, removing the LOG and changing the processor is IMHO what's most likely to happen. Basically they should do the same thing that Sony did with F3 and FS100. It's really simple I guess.

But seeing as how it's cinema oriented I'm guessing it will be a more expensive camera with atleast a 2k resolution output, 4:2:2 internal coding and a 4:4:4 uncompressed via SDI. 10bit is a must as is a LOG function. And it will probably use the sensor from the C300.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I really hope not Sanjin! That would be a deal breaker for many I'm sure. What you suggest makes a lot of sense based on what Sony did to create the FS100.

However, one must descend a long way down the Canon food chain to fall below XF codec. It's their defacto standard, with even the very affordable XF100 having it. Dropping it would be a hard sell.

If a C100 does eventuate, it will broaden the appeal of both units if they are format compatible. After buying an XL-H1, I picked up an XH-A1 to complement it. Likewise, a lot of people are working XF100s and XF300s side by side. And C300 owners will do the same with a more affordable sibling provided they share a codec.

Thinking more on this, and on what you and Andy have added, Canon could potentially retain the codec but *perhaps* -

* adopt DSLR form factor (sans XLR/LCD unit and custom buttons/knobs)
* lose NDs
* lose HD-SDI & genlock
* use DSLR batteries
* available in EF mount only

Pure speculation, but these alterations might allow for a significant price drop, and justify the C300 premium for big outfits who really need them (without compromising IQ for the rest of us!).

One caution. Looking again at the poster, it speaks of a "very exclusive screening"... rather than a product announcement as such.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

C300's weakness is the price.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Yep, I noticed that too -- so I believe it might just be a "very exclusive screening" of a Ron Howard production -- unfortunately.

-- peer

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

A 5k camera with a LOG function would be dumping IMHO. No other camera has it in this price range. If they bring LOG to 5k market then all I got to say is woohoo!:) But that would also mean that shooting with log would become something that we would eventually have to do on budgets that before didn't include log. Maybe, I'm not saying definitely. I'm not fiddling around with LOG if there's no budget for it BUT it's a cut throat market out here and who knows what's to come...

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I think
- Same 4k sensor (if 4k recording, canon might unlock 4k to c300 via firmware upgrade as well)
- display will be like 60D style instead of c300
- dual card slot like mk3 and 1Dx
- xlr slot mightbe optional via hotshot connector (it happen on GL2)
- clean hdmi output (since its drop from mk3, pretty sure it will be on c100, c300 has it as wel)
- price range $6-7k canon wants to compete with fs100 & af100. But canon always thought they are better and price is higher $1-2k
- still no autofocus to match with c300 :S
- EF mount only

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

I'm pretty sure that it will NOT be possible to "unlock" 4k on the C300. To get 4k from the chip you're talking about means a different camera, period. Many of the reasons the C300 is what it is is because they used already existing technology to bring a product more quickly to market - very sensible. But although the sensor may be there, much of the other electronics isn't - there isn't anything to "unlock".

And don't lets anybody muddy the waters between it being an "above C300" 4k camera, and a "C100". It'll be one - or the other. Don't expect 4k recording at $4,000, with RAW output ....... it's unrealistic.

I'm more inclined now to go along with the "C100" theory. If it was the "C4k" it just seems too short a time after the initial announcement. Wouldn't it have been better just to have waited a few months and just brought out the "C4k"? But we can assume (because of the C300) that all the basic tech for any "C100" already exists.

Unless I really had to, I don't think it would be a good idea to buy a FS100 or AF100 for the next month at least.......
That would make sense. And if it still had the 50Mbs codec that would mean no necessary expense or hassle of an external recorder. That sort of price would be roughly the same as the AF100/FS100 with a broadcast quality recorder. (Without the mounting hassles, wires etc!)

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

i am just about the trigger to get a FS100... so many announcement coming
Mar 13 Sony, possibly a new NXCAM
April 15, Canon EOS Cinema
probably panasonic will have some new camera coming up since AF100 already 2 years...

I just sold my 5Dmk2, and don't have a camera at this moment, quite worry when will the camera be available to ship after the announcement

i think i probably won't wait for canon, because i need a camera that can do autofocus (sometimes i will need it, specially on glidecam and jib) and i don't think EOS will have that feature

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

That's what I used to say about the Bugatti Veyron until people told me the weakness wasn't the price, but my inability to afford it.

And to all...
Though it's fun, the speculation is mostly pointless. There are only 3 things we know:
1) Canon has a DSLR form factor camera coming
2) It may be 4k
3) We don't always get what we want, and when we do it sometimes costs 3x what we think it will.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

i agree, C300 weakness is the price. The feature is something a little higher than FS100, not worth $16k
but canon can't set it to $6-7k, otherwise no one will buy xf series

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Sorry but that statement doesn't make very much sense. Anybody who needs a fully
motorized zoom, a high focal length ratio, a deep focal plane, auto or semi-auto exposure,
autofocus, a smaller form factor and a variety of other considerations generally relating to
event videography (rather than narrative filmmaking) will choose an XF series camcorder
over a C300 even if they were priced the same. And that's because a C300 can't deliver
any of those things, which the XF series was made specifically to do.

The XF series camcorders and the C300 are two completely different tools for completely
different types of jobs. One would not make a good substitute for the other, and the price
of the C300 makes absolutely no impact on that fact.

And Dylan is spot on, as usual.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Based on Canon's seemingly underwhelming (but actually sound) decision to focus on better sensor performance as opposed to resolution, I would like to venture a guess:

1. APS-C sensor - because I suspect this is a quick reaction to market events, and someone at Canon has had to fight hard for it. If it's a FF sensor, what does that do to the 5DIII's pride of place?
2. Specs similar to the 7D, with an H.264 inter frame only codec at 8-bit
3. 16-18 MP still camera, which puts it in the 7D ball park - any higher and it threatens the 5DIII. I'm curious to see how they tackle the heat problem - especially if they decide to encase it like the 1DX. For a company that guards its new models and test photographs jealously, they were awfully quick to release a photograph of the camera last year.

There is a market for cheap 4K, but is it big enough to excite a dinosaur like Canon?

Moreover, anyone who gets excited by the 4K camera only to purchase it and then start worrying about how they are going to actually edit, finish and deliver an interframe 4K codec (if it turns out to be the case), will probably be in for a rude shock to discover the 1080p mode of the camera might not be better or even equal to the 5DIII, but the price is. Where exactly does this camera fit in Canon's line up? Why does it even have to be a DSLR?

This is just a playful guesses so don't take me seriously, and I hope to be proven wrong, but in the 'better than expected' direction.

Refer to Canon U.S.A. Announces the EOS 5D Mark III Digital SLR Camera at DVInfo.net
-- the EOS 5D Mk. III starts shipping by the end of this month.

Most likely very little, because the 5D line through all three generations has been positioned
by Canon only as their most affordable full-frame D-SLR. It is not a product line flagship by
any means. That distinction goes to the EOS 1DX, and only in terms of *still photography*
cameras. There is some overlap of feature sets, but the Cinema EOS line is entirely
separate from the 1DX and 5D Mk. III.

What exactly do you mean by "dinosaur?" Do you recall that they
exhibited a concept camera for consumer 4K back in 2010?

Because that's what they've already teased. See New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development at DVInfo.net

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

A dinosaur? A company that has probably forgotten how many limbs it has, and whether it has a tail or not. Imagine if the tail strikes gold, and it takes two years for the head to get the news, and that too because another animal has gotten there first! :)

Here's my line of thought on the issue:
Video cameras don't need DSLR technology, or its form factor. If the EOS Cinema line is truly separate, then why does it have a DSLR form factor? Canon already has a great video division that knows how to design video cameras. I actually happen to like the form factor of the C300.

So is Canon trying to join the two divisions? If so, the new 5DIII does not make sense. So what gives? This is what leads me to believe there is a 'hero' somewhere in Canon who is sticking his neck out for us, and I thank him for it.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

If it is a C100, I'm certain it will not loose the 50mbit codec. But IMO its very early for a C100.
For me "screening" translates to 4K. FF highly probable. It's the only reasonable excuse for a DSLR form factor.

Also there is a red subtitle that is not readable. Does anyone has the actual invitation, to tell us what is written in the red text?

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

+1

The whole trend of the DSRL look is only a trend and as a such I hope it will go away.

It's been three and a half years... so I wouldn't call it a trend. It's an evolution.

The red text is an email address at Canon's contracted PR firm to which the recipient can reply with an RSVP.

It was probably blurred out because the invitation is "exclusive." Meaning, by invitation only.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

If any portion of your claim was true, then Canon would not have the dominant market share that it enjoys right now. Polaroid is a dinosaur. As is Kodak. Meanwhile Canon and Nikon have clearly evolved to not only survive, but thrive.

Yes and no. Video cameras do not need mirrors, penta-prisms or optical viewfinders. However the carryover from photo to video of large FF and APS-C sensors and the DSP's that run them are a natural and completely logical progression.

Canon merged its pro photo and pro video divisions more than three years ago. I have mentioned this fact many times here since it happened in Oct. 2008, most recently at http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ml#post1720164

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Wouldn't call it an evolution but rather an revolution. Evolution implies that something has evolved into something better, something more capable of surviving. Camera form will not evolve into a DSLR form. Cameras are ok as they are now. No need to change it into something awful as an DSLR. That's just crazy and totaly unnecessary. What will come out from this revolution is the popularity of the "box" form factor or "brick" form factor if you want to call it like that. That's what has currently been established by the DSLR revolution in the lower end production segment regarding the cameras form factor.

The only reason why canon stuck with the DSLR sort-of look with the C300 is probably because of branding. It's brand building. It's canon. It's "we are the creators of 5D", etc.,etc. Other than that I don't see a reason why one would have to produce a camera that looks like a DSLR. Ergonomically it's a step back. But it's 100% that the next camera from Canon will look like that. I don't want a Hasselbladt, I want a video camera!

And frankly this Canons attitude towards us industry professionals, treating us as consumers is a bit insulting.

Put the big chip into the XF300 body or put it into a box like the FS100 and be done with it. Just don't put it into a DSLR-ish body please.

That's it. Rant over!:)

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

The C300's price tag of $16,000 hardly qualifies as "treating us like consumers."

And none of the HD-equipped photo cameras, not even the pro-level 1D Mk. IV or 1DX, were ever pitched *directly* to professional videographers. They have *always* been still-photo cameras with video capability. It's not like they were foisted upon the video market. It's not like there wasn't any other choice (from Canon or otherwise).

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

What I meant with that was the product branding they are achieving with the C300 form factor. But let them do it. In time of recession good, productive, stable firms are needed. Just don't fall into the hype:)
Which we already did as we are all debating in this thread, I guess...

But still, my rant aside, it's nice to have diversity and different options to chose from within the market!

Edit: I wouldn't mind having a C300 or the next thing they deliver at all:)

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Hey Sareesh
You're making the same major assumption that everyone did with the C300... that it's going to be in the same price range as the 5D2/3. I doubt highly that this camera will street for less than $6,000 just based on the pro-line body form factor. If it is FF35 4k, there's no reason to assume it will cost less than $10,000. I sense a flood of "damn Canon for making this too expensive" threads around mid April.

I'll add for the record though that if it is a "cinema" EOS, I'd prefer to see it in a body other than a DSLR body.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

But would it then be an EOS...?

-- peer

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

That's weird... The red text on my invitation has the time the G650 is picking me up at the airport.

Yours only has a PR firm info?

Huh.

Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser
 

Peer, I phrased that a little oddly, my bad.
To clarify, I'd simply rather see a cinema oriented camera in a cinema oriented body, rather than a DSLR body. Purely for ergonomics, XLR input, hard audio controls, multiple video outputs, HD-SDI, adjustable side/top mount LCD, variable ND filters, larger battery port, dual media, etc... The stuff that we have to make clunky workarounds for on DSLRs.

If you're making it for video, make it for video, we'll pay more. (at least I will)