Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Doesn't surprise me, not just for archive, but for a cameraman to be able to handover media and not worry about it being returned quickly for reuse. I've now heard a lot of stories about files on solid state being prematurely wiped by error!

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

I just feel its very dissapointing for Sony not to upgrade the EX1/3 to 50Mbps 422. Its been a great industry workhorse and deserves it.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Pmw200....

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

...PMW200 (HD22 50 Mbps) indeed. If Sony has the technology to do 240FPS at S35mm-like sensor (albeit line-skipped), imagine what can be done with almost 20 times smaller, 1/3" ones :)...
I'd imagine super slow motion, built-in 10X Zoom lens (hopefully wider than PMW100's 40mm) and a pricetag just below $6000

Still the image quality from a 1/3 sensor wouldn't beat Sony's own RX100 but this is another story at completely different league.

Exiting times,
T

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Yes, convincing pictures of a PMW-200 XDCAM are starting to appear on the web - in the last few hours.

I won't post a link to them as I know Chris doesn't do rumor sites etc. Just think bigger than the PMW 100 and with proper ND filters/XDCAM 422 at 50Mbps etc.

Looks more like an upgraded EX1. Looks good in the 3 views I've seen so far!

I wonder if they'll announced an upgraded EX3 too (mine's exactly 4 years old this week!). The EX1r and EX3 badly need an upgraded codec to match Canon's XF300 "desirable broadcast spec." etc., so it would make sense. A PMW 200 was an inevitable step after the PMW 100 announcement a while ago (in my opinion). Maybe a PMW 300 will be the EX3 replacement too - announced on 26th July, or in the future?

Not long until we know for sure!

I feel a bout of gear lust and upgrade fever coming on....

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

PMW-200 XDCAM the looks of the lens and EVF are very very similar to ones in EX1R.

It is the one we are talking about?

I don't know about the performance but the form design is very disappointing.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Oh, thank God!
i mean Doug

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

This PMW 100 seems to have an EX1 lens. It's supposedly a 1/2 inch sensor too.

The big questions are this:

3 sensors or just 1?
10 bit SDI out or 8bit?

If it is a 3 sensor with 10bit out than its clearly a replacement for the EX1r.

I got a feeling in my gut that Sony will make this. Single 1/2 inch with 8 bit SDI only. Mostly because they still have the EX3 floating out there. A 3 sensor, 10bit PMW 200 could replace the EX1 but not the EX3 and it would be strange to leave it hanging out there all alone 4:2:0 like that.

Who knows?

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Well, there might be a "PMW300" out before too long to replace the EX3......? As far as specs go, I think you're focussing on the wrong things, it's the internal codec that most people feel could do with the upgrade, rather than the HD-SDI out. In that case, what's realistically needed is XDCAM 422 50Mbs - it's what people have been asking for, and it's why some EX1 sales have been lost to Canon and the XF305. If the rumours are to be believed, things are looking good.

Put a fully approved codec with 3 1/2" chips into a package this size and it becomes a clear winner over both the XF305 and Panasonics HPX250, both of which have been able to claim a codec advantage in the past to partly offset their front end disadvantages.

Except for the most noise free cameras (nothing in the 1/3" or 1/2" realm) then 10 bit doesn't really offer a lot - all it does is waste 20% of the bitrate. And if you've got the fully approved codec onboard, then less need to use an external recorder, so even less point. 10 bit really only comes into it's own with something like s-log, something intended to need grading
We all will in a couple of days time! :-)

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Agreed.

I do hope this is a 3 sensor camera. It seems that using a 4:2:2 codec behind a small, single bayer sensor is defeating the purpose by a little bit. In the PMW 100, the codec seems to be the biggest selling point. Sony didn't even decide to use it's "best" (by Sony marketing materials) EXMOR sensor. The PMW 100 only carries a small EXMOR, not the back illuminated EXMOR-R sensor. As we all know, a larger EXMOR-R sensor is used on many Handycams today as well as the NX30 and NX70. A smaller and older technology sensor was chosen for the PMW 100 and I cant understand why. (unless the Sony marketing materials that state how back illuminated -R sensors are that much better,....are not at all true)

Lately, I have been playing with Avid DNxHD 10 bit files compared to XDCAM EX. When stretching and pulling colors in post, I have noticed a noticeable difference between the two. Especially while using noise reduction plugins. Off my EX1r, I cant say it's a "drastic" difference but it's easily "noticeable".

I'm very excited about this PMW 2000. Let's see how Sony protects it's upper models from this baby. Let's see how far they went in crippling that PMW 200. It's a necessary tactic and one that Sony does very well.

I'm also curious to see if this is the intended replacement for the EX1r.

I can't wait for Alister to get his hands on it! ;-)

Cliff

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

PMW-100: one 1/2.9-inch CMOS
PMW-200: three 1/2-inch CMOS

Here you can download the manual of both camcorders in English: http://cinescopophilia.com/wp-conten...07/PMW-200.pdf

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

I assume you meant to say "PMW-200" because the PMW-100 has already been released and it is only one 1/3" sensor.

Sony's SDI output is always 10-bit on all of their cameras -- even the EX1 and PMW-100. So there's no chance a new camera is going to be 8-bit no matter how many sensors it has or what size they are.

David's comments are on the right track.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

In my experience, clear winner is an overstatement. I had an EX-1 with a Nanoflash for two years. Switched to an XF300 and like the images I am getting a lot more with the XF300. Better detail in finished products (DVD & Blu-ray), ergonomics and a better overall look. I could never get past a faint posterized/plastic look to skin and some colors. Personal preference but outside of the EX 1/2" series having better light gathering abilities the EX is a really good choice out of three or soon to be four with the JVC 600 series.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

the sensor will be 1/2". whether there is 1 or 3 is another matter. or some strange new technology where 1 sensor does 3 things..

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

An s35 sensor in an ENG package using XDCAM 4:2:2-50 is a "big thing". 1/2" 3mos using XDCAM 4:2:2-50 may be a big thing for Sony and the 1/2" chips in the "PMW-200" distinguishes them from the pack but it's somewhat not such a "big thing" unless it's the price vs the competition that's the "big thing". IMHO

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Sorry,...you are right, I did mean "PMW 200".

This is potentially a HUGE development. Rumors are coming in that this PMW 200 is a THREE sensor camera with 10bit SDI out.

If this is the case than we can certainly and finally call it the true successor to the beloved EX1r! (I knew the day would come "some day")

Also, given how Sony has made vast improvements in recent years with sensor readout, post processing and noise reduction, we should have very high exceptions for the PMW 200's image quality. Sony can do ALLOT more with 3 1/2 inch sensors today than they could 5 years ago.

Even bigger questions:

Does this mean that the EX 4:2:0 codec is "dead"?
Is the F3 the last "EX" codec camera that Sony will ever make?
Will "NXCAM" now be Sony's only 4:2:0 codec for future products?

Wow,..tomorrow could be one of those "The king is dead!" days...lol

Very very interesting.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

I agree. If its 3 sensors and basically just a codec upgrade to the EX1r then they'll sell shed loads anyway as it'll be a worthy upgrade (but hardly the next big thing as you rightly point out). But, if it has a single s35 sensor, then they'll need to build a new factory (and lots of warehouse/sheds all over the world) to supply the huge pent up demand - assuming they don't get a bit greedy on the pricing, Canon C300 style.

I guess we'll all know in 48hrs. Come on Sony, you already have all the important components of the jigsaw in your arsenal - and we know you can do it, if you really want to!!!

However, don't get too excited as yesterday at least one website claimed that they had found a translation of the specs on a Sony site stating it will be 1/2 inch XDCAM 422 - so I suspect that means an EX1r replacement/upgrade.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Thank you! It is true, I will not give traffic to "rumor" sites. Sony will make it official very soon anyway. Much appreciated,

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

The question must be whether that was down to line-up, or something intrinsic to the camera? Ten or more years ago, the "look" of a camera in this price range was defined by the manufacturer and had to be accepted. And different manufacturers had different preferences - no right or wrong, it was a matter of opinion.

But more recently cameras in this price range have a wide range of adjustment, as previously only used to be true for much higher end models. The default "look" of a camera now may differ out of the box by manufacturer, but if you prefer different, change the line-up - it's not the issue it used to be.
A guess, but what you describe sounds like an excessive level of what I know as "coring", and I think Sony describe as "crispening". Benefits of it include lower noise level - downside is exactly what you describe, high contrast detail is strong, subtle detail removed. If that's true, it's a line up issue - not fundamental to the hardware.

Some factors ARE fundamental to the hardware, and 1/2" v 1/3" chips greatly affects some of these. Tims already mentioned lowlight and noise performance - also important are depth of field differences and minimum usable aperture due to diffraction.

In the past, when asked "what about the EX 1/2" chips?" Canon and Panasonic have been able to counter "they may be 1/3", but our cameras have a fully approved codec built in." Quite true. If Sony are bringing out a camera based on the EX, but with 50Mbs XDCAM, Canon and Panasonic lose maybe their strongest card overnight.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Fully approved codec is no guarantee though; Sony have just had the PMW-100 with 50mbs XDCAM codec not approved by the BBC. Bearing in mind that the PMW-100 seemed to be the answer to the Canon XF-300 that was approved (with a smaller sensor).

Whether or not the sensor in this new Sony will pass is another issue, but it seems the approval is based on the total sum of the parts including, but not limited to, the codec.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

That doesn't surprise me at all, but (not surpisingly) it's going to be the front end that lets the PMW100 down. The earlier comment was intended to specifically relate between the EX1, XF305 and HPX250, my apologies for not being clearer.

I believe the BBC will accept an EX1 at the moment - provided it is coupled to an external recorder like a nanoFlash to give at least 50Mbs. Build that codec in, and keep the same (or better) front end and I can't see why it won't be even more acceptable than the XF305.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

The PMW-100 was never going to be accepted and anyone that thought it might needs to look at the minimum specs that the BBC and EBU have for a broadcast camera.

For long form programme aquisition EBU R 118 requires that cameras have 3 x 1/2" sensors and a minimum of a 50Mb/s 422 codec. There is a dispensation for 3x 1/3" sensors provided they meet specific testing requirements.

For news you can use 3x 1/3" or 3x 1/2" with a minimum of 35Mb/s according to EBU R 118.

But in no instance can you use a single small sensor as your main camera for any type of broadcast production, so the PMW-100 was never going to get approved, same story with the Canon XF100/105. That's not what the PMW-100 was designed for. The idea behind it is a small camera using the same codec and thus same workflow as the PMW-500 for getting occasional pick shots that fall into the 20% of a programme that can be shot with non "HD" cameras.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

If it is EX1 replacement as the leaks suggest, it won't have 1080 50/60p, because I think it's not supported by the MPeg2 compression. It is kind of surreal that a €600 still camera can output that and not a €6000 pro video camera.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

So what? I had an inexpensive 3-chip TM700 that recorded 1080p60. I'd take the EX1R image over it any day.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

It is supported by MPEG2. It's not a standard but it is supported.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Looks like we have "credible" people saying that the PMW 200 will have iPad and Android WiFi control.

I got a feeling this camera will be a huge seller.

Bye bye XDACM EX 4:2:0. Looks like Sony is done making cameras with this codec. It seems that 4:2:0 will be the sole domain of NXCAM moving forward.

Alister, have you seen one yet? (Damn,....I guess you cant talk until tomorrow)

Cliff

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

This does beg the question: Is there still value in a EX1+Nanoflash combo because of this?

For those not planning to exceed 50Mbps, this does cancel out the reason to get a EX1/EX1R.

Personally, I always shoot 100Mbps with the Nanoflash when I'm using it so I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade as of yet.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

I LOVE my EX1r. Especially when shooting to Avid DNxHD 10bit 4:2:2

However, the camera is based off the EX1 and that camera is a few years old now. The EX1r is a bit "dirty" in the upper gain levels by today's standards. I have a NEX VG20 that is beautiful at +12db. Even +18db is very usable. Even the NX70 looks very clean at +12 & 15db. Much better cleaner than the EX1r at +9db. (not saying it's a better image, just saying it's "cleaner")

In these last few years, Sony has made HUGE improvements in sensor readout, post processing and noise reduction. Just look at what they have been able to do with the single 1/3rd inches today. It's crazy to see what they are getting from these little guys. The processing on the FS100 and F3 are fantastic as well. (granted, those are large sensors)

I have a very strong feeling that if Sony "allows" this new PMW 200 to have all the current sensor readout and processing technology that they have developed so far,...we will see the PMW 200 having far superior noise handling to the "old" EX1 cameras. ("old"...lol..I cant believe I'm saying that)

Imagine having an EX1r or EX3 that looks just as clean at +12db as it does at 0db.

I hope we see Alister pop out with his surprise PMW 200 field test results tomorrow. ;-)

EX1r for sale!

CT

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

QUOTE=Jack Zhang;1745343]This does beg the question: Is there still value in a EX1+Nanoflash combo because of this?

For those not planning to exceed 50Mbps, this does cancel out the reason to get a EX1/EX1R.

Personally, I always shoot 100Mbps with the Nanoflash when I'm using it so I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade as of yet.[/QUOTE]

I have an EX1 and Nanoflash combo and also record at 100mbps - if the only major difference in this camera is 50mbps and 422 without any significant upgrade in tweaking the sensors for better low light performance, less noise - I also see no reason to upgrade. I also like the idea of 4-7 second pre record buffer and having duplicate recording capability in case there is a problem with any corrupted files on the in-camera recording system.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

I feel sad to see the flip-under LCD not re-instated in future models. This is really beneficial if you want to retract your LCD with a light on the front shoe mount (for instance, a Flolight Microbeam with a 970 battery) and still want to open it later on.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Possibly :-)

The embargo ends at 2am tomorrow UK time.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

That's coming up quick. 3 hours to go.

I'll really need to see results shot at 18db gain before I reconsider skipping this.

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Here is the announcement:

Sony Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line at DV Info Net

So its an EX1R with 50Mb/s 4:2:2 MXF recording and a Wi-Fi remote facility to follow in December with a free firmware update.
Suggested price: $7790

Re: Sony Announcement, 26th July.
 

Continued in a new thread at:

Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line -- Discussion Thread

See you there!