Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Minimum illumination level on the XF100/300 sensor is 4.5 lux, on the C100/300/500 is 0.3 lux and on the XA20/25 sensor is 1.2 lux. Two stops between the XA20/25 and the other two sensors.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Minimum listed lux on the XF100 is 1.6 in manual mode. F/1.2 is undoubtedly obtained on the new XA20 and 25 at manual settings as well.

We must be careful before posting specs and throwing numbers around so as not to confuse people.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

It's mentioned clearly on the HD-SDI sublink in the product page itself:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : XA25

This is the first time I've ever seen Canon deliberately mention HD-SDI output as specifically 4:2:0. Seems to me that they want to be clear on what this is.

This cam seems to be targeted at ENG use for one, so the purpose of this HD-SDI may not be so much for external recording, but rather the ability to feed live to a truck or deck.

But yes, crippling it to 4:2:0 on purpose still is unfortunate, but clearly is a move to protect the XF line.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

I just noticed that the HF-G30 drops the LAN-C plug that the HF-G10 sports. For me, this is a deal breaker.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

And this morning they're showing $2499 and $2999 for the XA20 and XA25 respectively. Go figure.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

You are comparing manual mode to auto mode. Manual mode increases shutter speed beyond 360 degree shutter. So, we need to compare specs with same shutter speeds.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

The initial C100 specs also mentioned 4:2:0 but later were changed to 4:2:2.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Wow, I guess they can't make up their minds.

It is going to be fun for the guys on the floor at NAB. I'm guessing they'll have to have a stock market price ticker going at the booth to keep track of what the current advertised price will be.

$3,199, no $2,699, no $2,999, no $4,999, no $1,999 no...

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Nooooo. That can't be right! I gotta confirm this for myself...

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

And early reports thought the G20 dropped the LANC port, only to be proved false when the G20 was seen hands on. Have to wait and see the beast in more detail.

The XA20/25 is 1.2 lux compared to the XA10 at 1.5 on the spec sheet on the web page, and the FX100 is 4.5 lux. However, the shutter speeds are not the same (1/30 for XA10 vs 1/60 for XF100, not stated for the XA2x) and the gain is not stated for all cases either.

I would expect the end result to be close to the same (within a fraction of a stop for the same end image quality) when all is said and done.

But in the mean time speculation IS fun!

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Well, I put a query to CUSA about it and am waiting for a response, but meanwhile, we'll find out for sure on Monday when I drop by the Canon booth at NAB. My guess is that it *does* have a remote terminal but the listing was omitted from the specs page, as was the case with the G20.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Okay, just heard back from one of the top folks at Canon USA. Boy, that was quick!

Couple of things to clarify here:

1. Canon Inc. confirms that the color sampling for the HD-SDI output terminal is 4:2:2, not 4:2:0 as currently stated on the Canon USA web site. Steps are being taken to correct this error.

2. Confirmed: the VIXIA HF G30 as well as the XA20 and XA25 provide a standard 2.5mm remote control terminal (LANC type).

Hope this helps,

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

I understand trying to protect their higher end models by limiting to 4:2:0 but at the same time they may be limiting the sales of the XA25 in the process. Just how many truck feed uses can there be for a camera. To me it seems like it would be a a rather limited market of buyers who would typically want a higher end camera anyway.

If they would add 4:2:2 the amount of sales could be much higher given the already attractive price point. Companies typically make a lot more money off cheaper products than they do their flagship products.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Scratch my last post. Lol

It amazes me how many companies get this wrong or sometimes refuse to answer the question or play dumb. 4:2:2 is like porn in this industry and everybody is afraid of talking about it.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

This news will make quite many happy :)

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

That helps a lot, Chris! I thought 4:2:0 SDI was a bit odd. Thanks for pursuing this matter.

These little cameras are pretty impressive, especially that 20x zoom.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

There is. My contact at CUSA confirms that the lower button on the left side of the folding OLED view screen can be assigned to manage WB settings on HF G30, XA20 and XA25. This is shown on the "Assignable Buttons" feature page in the CUSA web site:

Canon U.S.A. : Professional Imaging Products : XA25

Hope this helps,

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

I'd take lux figures on cameras like this with a huge pinch of salt. Remember "zero lux"? Quite accurate - had an infra red illuminator - but didn't really tell you a lot..... :-)

The trouble is that the figures take no account of whether electronic noise reduction is used, frame averaging, or even the noise figure at the illumination stated.

In other words, all they tell you is that the camera will produce an image at the lux level stated. How poor a quality it is - that's another thing altogether.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

That is great Chris, really great news!

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

B&H has the prices for pre-order: $2,699 and $2,199.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/963141-REG/canon_8443b002_xa25_hd_professional_camcorder.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/963139-REG/canon_8453b002_xa20_hd_professional_camcorder.html

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Most likely a XAVC 1080p60 cam recording at 200Mbps would be the update to the PMW lineup.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

I was just browing the specs, and it looks like maybe they've dropped internal flash memory on these new ones?

The XA10 had 64GB internal...

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Yes, they did.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

XF 100 has 50Mbps MPEG-2 Recording 4:2:2 Color Sampling for 2,499 and more professional looking.
I wonder if the XA 25 will have better low light?

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

It's interesting to see that the price of the XF100 has dropped substantially. That leads me to suspect that Canon might be bringing out an XF100 replacement. Or possibly they're going to ditch the XF100 instead, and let the XA25 take its place, with the XF300 serving as a demarcation point between their 4:2:0 prosumer cams and their 4:2:2 capable line.

I can see a lot of buyers opting for the XA25 over the XF100 just to get the longer lens and other goodies the XA25 offers, even at the cost of having to sacrifice the 50 MB/s output the XF100 is capable of.

As good as the X100 and its bigger sibling, the XF300 are, they both seem to be at the point where a refresh and even a redesign might be order.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

It does look like the internal memory has been dropped. I checked out the B&H website for their listings of the XA25/20 cams and found notes indicating that external memory is required for both.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Interesting thought....... But it's worth bearing in mind that the higher the frame rate, the more the efficiency advantage to long-GOP recording.

The logic is that if you keep the I frames at the same time interval (1/2 second, say) you get about twice as many difference frames if you double the frame rate. Since the I frames are much larger than difference frames, it follows that doubling the frame rate doesn't mean doubling the bitrate for comparable quality. That's why for 30fps AVC-HD has a bitrate of 24Mbs, and 60fps is 28Mbs.

For top end gear (F5/55) then yes, expect I-frame only XAVC. But at the lower end, PMW200 etc, I'd say long-GOP XAVC is far more likely for reasons of economy, and quite likely around the 50Mbs mark.

Just don't underestimate the computing power needed to deal with such. I do think it will come - but unless you really need 50/60p there's a lot to be said in terms of ease of handling in staying with XDCAM 422 and 50 Mbs, as no broadcasters are transmitting such. (And are unlikely to ever do so IMO - 50/60p isn't in current transmissions specs, and any next gen broadcast system is likely to leapfrog 1080p/50 straight to 4k.)

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

28mbps AVCHD 2.0 IMHO is not broadcast compliant at all. The example I saw with waves breaking on a shore in the Caribbean was absolutely horrible in terms of macroblocking. I agree that the GH3 hit the sweet spot in terms of 1080p60 and Long-GOP. There is totally room for that spec in XAVC, with 10-bit and 4:2:2 as extra included. My opinion involves 100Mbps Long-GOP rather than 50, that would be more broadcast compliant and hence more EBU/BBC compliant.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply I considered 28Mbs AVC-HD broadcast compliant (nor 24Mbs AVC-HD for standard frame rates, for that matter :-) ) - I mentioned the 24/28Mbs versions to demonstrate that doubling the framerate does not mean you have to double the bitrate in a long-GOP system.

(And also worth saying that especially with AVC based systems, all coders are far from equal, especially real time ones. For a given image and a given bitrate, one coder might do a good job, another give poor results. That's especially true in cheaper consumer grade cameras - where you're currently more likely to get 28Mbs AVC-HD.)

And yes, it's quite clear that XAVC has long-GOP (with 10 bit, 4:2:2 and 50p) within the spec as well as the I-frame only version. I'll keep an open mind over bitrate, but as long-GOP is supposed to give an efficiency advantage of about 2-3x over comparable I-frame only at "normal" frame rates, I'd say it's reasonable to expect something like 4x at double frame rates. I agree with the 200Mbs for I-frame and a quarter of that is how I got to (guess at) 50Mbs as a sensible figure for comparable long-GOP.

But yes, it's speculation - we'll see.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

What is the lowest level (Least expensive) of compression necessary to avoid the macro blocking you mentioned above? JVC 600 series do it?

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

The Blackmagic Hyperdeck would get you ProRes HQ, which is 220Mbps. This is not camera dependent as this is an external recorder. Ideally, pick a camera for the best uncompresed picture, then choose an external recorder.

50Mbps MOV would be a nice addition to the XA25, which would give more incentive for that cam with it's HD-SDI port.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Honestly 50mbits mpeg2 can macro block a lot as well. In fact with a good encoder AVCHD at 28mbits can look just as good as 50mbits outside of the 4:2:2 color of course. I consider 50mbits with mpeg2 to be the minimum for decent quality but it by no means is a great quality format. Plus remember mpeg2 can only use blocks that are 8x8 pixels so if it does macro lock you may notice it more with the naked eye.

Honestly for keying I have had much better results from 4:2:0 AVCHD than I have had from 4:2:2 mpeg2 due to the smaller AVCHD block sizes during sudden movement. If nothing moves the mpeg2 looked great but for action shots against greenscreen the mpeg2 would fall apart in the heavy motion blur areas much quicker.

Then again I was using a GH2 hacked to 100mbits so it may be a slightly unfair comparison.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

My take is that the XA-series target buyer is the moderate budget event videographer (think weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs) and higher end home user who wants good toys for their daughter's soccer games and son's birthday parties. If it looks good on their home theater projection system (or 60"'+ flat screen) and better then their neighbors handi-cam, they are very very happy. That community is not all that concerned about 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 or 8-bit vs. 10-bit or SDI. On the other hand, an easy way to dump to DVD or Blu-Ray is important.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

In which case it wasn't AVC-HD...... The latter defines a sub-set of H264, the top level of which is 24/28Mbs.

If it's 100Mbs, it's not AVC-HD, by definition.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

I think you've pretty much nailed the target market. But don't forget the documentary and corporate users whose main content distribution conduits will be streaming video sites like Youtube and Vimeo, (plus their own websites), who happen to have very small budgets for video production. These users will also want the best possible image quality they can get for their limited budgets, and cameras like the XA20/25 will fill that bill quite nicely. For such users, it isn't necessary that the cameras are capable of recording with a broadcast-compliant codec.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

With the new five way IS some incredible shots will be possible. Mount it in a Merlin with an external recorde and do POV steadicam work cheaply,

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Point accepted. And for compelling content all equipment and codec rules are forgiven as long as the outlet can read it in time for the 6 PM news, etc.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Don't forget how much can be forgiven when the client has money for airtime.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Maybe these new Canon cams will be different... but I've always found it best to turn any lens/camera IS system OFF when doing Merlin Steadicam work.

This I think is the recommended thing to do too - it's a long while since I looked at the Steadicam instruction book!

I admit that my Merlin experience is only with Canon 7D and Canon C100 (both with and without IS lenses) and a tiny Panasonic TM900 (which has an incrediblly effective hybrid IS system). However, in all cases, my best results have always been obtained with IS turned off with each cam/lens system. Otherwise you can get the same issues as when you pan on a tripod with the IS turned on - the image jumping to catch up type effect. This is why some Canon DSLR lenses have a 2 position IS switch as I'm sure we all know, one allowing horizontal panning without this problem (but still giving stabilisation in the vertical plane).

Sure, until someone gets their hands on these new Canon's we'll not know for sure how the IS performs with stabilisers like the Merlin - but just I'm raising a note of caution here.

OK, let's return to the main topic on hand, discussing these new cams from Canon.

Re: New Canon XA25, XA20 and HF G30 camcorders
 

Electronic IS acts differently than OIS.