Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

That's something that does happen. That doesn't mean honest customers should be punished for those who abuse the return policy. Canon should step in an handle this issue with the dealers. I believe in consumer protection especially when the consumer is spending over $5K and possibly over $26K

Although B&H and Adorama have no return, AbelCine doesn't list that on their site.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Indeed. We can't fuss too hard about form factor when the 5D II/III is still one of the most popular things to shoot on. Clearly vast swathes of people aren't too bothered if the price is right (and the picture is good).

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Actually, I love the image and what it can do. I love the price tag. No question it's the most capable camera under $15,000.

But that doesn't change the fact that the form factor is terrible for video. its a great tool, but very awkward to use. And no, you can't actually fix it with cages and add on trinkets. Maybe I am the only guy in the world who thinks its a terrible design or maybe I'm just the only guy with the balls to say it in public against the rabid fanboyism that follows a lot of these cameras.

Edit: I realized Charles Papert was the other guy in this thread who didn't like the design. So there are two of us. If you dont think my opinion is worth anything, you might want to google Charles.

I'm not steering anyone away from it... I'm just calling the facts out and people can interpret make up their own minds.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

The form factor is much worse than dslrs. Note the lack of buttons, dials, etc which allow nearly instant changes to settings on the fly? Thats just the start... Cable placement out the left side of the camera, theres another failure, right in the way of your evf or follow focus or control hand. zero inherent grip means you cant use it without a rig and then that means that none of the controls are actually under your fingertips. And so on...

I think the reason no one else is complaining is because most people dont know any better any more. Am I really the only guy here who sees these as bad/lazy design flaws that could have been done properly from day one for absolutely no extra cost? Or at least been improved on the 4k version?

Anyway, I'll leave it at that . Jim probably has the best summary of the camera on the previous page.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I think the fact that the 4k version is so cheap is that they could just re-use the existing body, so usability was not their first priority but low price was but I do have to agree with Dylan as well about the useless formfactor in it's bare state. It seems that the low price blinds many people from the different flaws the camera's has and they only want to see the good, which is ok, because for many only the output counts and here is where this camera can deliver, at a pricepoint many can afford, but it doesn't mean it's an easy camera to work with.

I also find it worrying how defensive people can get, especially on other BMC minded fora, where if you point out that you need to spend at least double on accessories to get a production ready camera you get attacked as if you kick their child, even if they don't have one, yet :)

I"m very keen on getting the bmc pocket camera and the only thing what interests me is the image it outputs, I probably will hate the lack of real control buttons as well but I only will use it in projects where I have the time to work around those limitations and focus on image quality only and that for a ridiculous cheap price, so I can forgive bmc for not thinking like a real camera operator when they designed this camera :)

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

That’s it in a nutshell, even if they put the start/stop button in the trunk.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I still have to see one single image the pocket cam outputs so I"ll pass my final judgment when that happens, Im" not the kind of guy that pre-orders because something is cheap but when I see what it can deliver.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Touchscreens are not much fun (although isn't the GH2/3 mostly touchscreen driven? I haven't actually had to use it. It seems to be the way things are going). I would dispute that all these things can be fixed for nothing though. Every set of buttons, the dies to mount them on, the boards to run them would add a whole bunch of costs in design and prototyping iterations, manufacturing, you name it. It's more stuff to buy, it's more stuff to build and to get wrong. Yeah Canon and Sony can do this stuff in their sleep. They have massive design and manufacturing infrastructure with decades of experience and well run supply chains pretty much on call. They can do all this at such a scale that costs are low, or offset elsewhere. Blackmagic can't (we see the trouble they've had with their sensor manufacturer, who didn't even make sensors for vision until now). I wager just about everything awkward about it is at least partly a product of that. So no buttons. It's a pity but there it is.

You're right in a way that people don't know any better any more. There's a whole strata of filmmakers that would be lucky to even touch a cage or a follow rig, or if they get one it doesn't quite fit. Their external view finder is an old TV set or computer monitor. They spent all their money on a 5D and some dodgy op shop lenses. The Indie indies. Ex-students leeching of their school's busted old gear. This is an area where pretty much everything doesn't work to some degree and you have to make do (it's an interesting place to be since lighting, camera and art department all actually understand each other for a change. The further up the chain you go the only true hackers on set are down in Art, everyone else's gear is so nice, their jobs so regimented.).

So I think, as much as they'd like seasoned wedding shooters and so forth to buy them as well, they were thinking a bit more grass roots with this one. Both in terms of costs and design.
(I was thinking though that with 4k coming along Kine-finity needs to really get a move on. They look more like video cameras so people should be happier there)

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Can I chime in as well?

My thoughts?

BMD is doing VERY well right now by creating fanboys - their gear is offered at a ridiculously low price but never seems to make it out of beta. Check the BMD Forum available at their website to see JUST HOW MANY issues real world users are having with BMD products across the line. They do a handful of things well and mess up just as many. In fact, every firmware update across the lines breaks as much as it fixes.

I have more invested in BMD products than most independent producers so I feel qualified.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Valid point on their problems and the additional cost. Stuff like the cable directions, etc, could be fixed free, but a proper control set would have added a few hundred to the cost. IMHO, it would have been worth it.

You know... it's too bad they couldn't just have added a mount for the Red Epic control handle. :)

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

The form factor is much worse than dslrs. Note the lack of buttons, dials, etc which allow nearly instant changes to settings on the fly?[/QUOTE]

Actually, given the fact that there are so few changes you can make in camera, changing on the fly is not really something one does with this camera. I can understand you may wanti to change ISO on the fly, as an issue, but changing the iris is done with out going into the menu. Shutter speed is usually chosen and forgotten in my work flow, and given that latitude is so wide on the camera, you can pan the camera from bright sunlight into shadow, and not lose detail.

After all that, if you have a separate monitor, you can leave the menu screen up and change settings on the fly, while still framing shoot from the montior screen. See photo attached.

I have yet to run into this as being a problem. Admittedly, I am only three weeks into using the camera, but this left side cable placement is no different that with the Canon 5D Mark II, and there were no issues for me there either.

One of the reasons for keeping the form factor the same is to allow the secondary manufacturers to develop their products to fit across the entire line interchangeably. A solution to 5D issues was provided in time., and one for the shortcomings of this camera be provided too. As a DYI rigger, I am actually quite thankful for the simplicity of this camera, and the four mounting points provided. With simple aluminum stock and bushings, and simple tools in my gargage, I have been able to fashion and mount dual hand grips, a shoulder rig, and loupe set up. See this Youtube video as example.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I bet that shot of the fan has some fantastic DR. I don't find the form factor an issue either, every camera has its issues. Seriously, DSLR's shortcomings don't bother me, the BMCC will not either.

Cables can be situated easier than a DSLR IMHO with something like this:

Laird Digital Cinema 2-Channel Stereo Balanced Right Angle 1/4-Inch to XLR Blackmagic 2.5K Cinema Camera Audio Adapter Cable - 3-Foot 1/4in Phone to XLR Cables at Markertek.com

Right angle 1/4" connectors keep the profile low and you can zip tie excess cable to a top handle. Now just get more of them out so the used market will be flooded with them once the 4k cam hits the street so I can score a deal on one. Till then its the pocket cam for me...

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

But why design a camera that perpetuates the need for a secondary market that only exists because of the fluke of people needing to shoot video on DSLRs in the first place?

Anyway, this has been beaten to death. It is what it is and none of this will matter when GoPro launches their 8k for $800 camera next year.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

at this point, i am sure that the many DSLR users that would step up to this camera already have the rigs and solutions to the form factor, audio, cable etc. and rigs can be had for so much cheaper! i laugh at the big name rigs that are just bits of aluminum selling for thousands of dollars. i understand that 'you get what you pay for' to some extent, but give me a break! i just bought a camera cage and rails for 150 bucks, and turned it in to two solid camera supports. yes, there are design problems, but they are by far outweighed by the benefits, and are expected in a product that is pushing technological and pricing boundaries. i wish BMD nothing but success as innovators should be rewarded, not derided!

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Innovators? This is a major for profit corporation.... not Kickstarter kids in their basement.
They have not really innovated anything, they have just copied what is out there smaller and cheaper.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Not much risk in trying one. If the camera doesn't cut it, you can sell it, possibly for more than retail if they're back ordered like the 2.5k.

Even though I ordered one I don't think this is a good all purpose camera. If I shot weddings for example I would probably use something else.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Wow, the Vancouver contingent for DVInfo has really come down hard on Black Magic this week. Seems like there are some issues with this gear for them, so I would expect that they won't be availing themselves of the Black Magic offerings.

Despite that negative outlook, the reason this camera line is so popular in terms of discussion, if nothing else, is its basic feature set of high quality codec, accompanying software, and a decent speed sensor at a great price point. The sensor itself is actually usable for both shallow depth of field shooting, but can be set up too for much deeper depth of field. The new models add to the line. The market will buy it and even though there are certainly issues for each on various levels, the users will adapt. The only question is will those entrenched in something else adapt. The entrenched will be bitter because that is where their money is, but the question is will they adapt.

If that qualifies me as a fan boy, then I am one.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Duane-
What I'm saying is the internal battery is worthless in a professional environment so you will need either an Anton or IDX system for power. The 1/4" jack is also a non-professional connector and introducing adapters in audio usually means trouble....hiss, pops, etc. Same goes for touch screen monitors...more potential trouble.
The jist of my post was: in real production environments, there will be enough un-expected things or problems that are going to show up anyway. To add to that a camera that has a lot of extra stuff, including adapters, is upping your chances to have more problems....control what you can control, and not worry about the ones you can't so in that sense, the C100 is 100% ready to go.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

BTW- all these reasons that I have posted plus delivery issues, are why we passed on the camera for now...not because we are a Canon dealer.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

You're assuming everyone who buys the camera will be shooting 3 hours at a time. I won't and 90 minutes is plenty of battery time. Regarding 1/4" jacks not being "professional", patch bays in even the best recording studios are often 1/4" TRS balanced. The signal is identical to XLR so this is not an issue for me.

My priorities are capture quality and price. That makes the BMPC a pretty easy choice compared to the Canons, or at least it would seem so on paper.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

As you said, for your use it's fine....with day long shoots it's not. While 1/4" is fine in the studio, XLR is the standard for production.......and your last line says everything I'm talking about..."on paper"

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Jim:

It's a sticky wicket using the Canon C series cameras as a benchamrk example of what a "professional" camera should be. They themselves have an odd form factor that does not lend itself well to scaled-up production with bolt-on accessories. A camera should not require an oddball third party cage with mounting points, yet this camera was designed from the ground up to expect one (the Redrock was shown at the product rollout as you know). Instead of adhering to tried and true base-to-lens heights so that standard baseplates could be used, the camera was made arbitrarily tall so that mini rods just barely are accommodated by custom third party bases. And as soon as the camera is built out for production work with outboard battery and whatever accessories, one has to leave an air gap behind the camera to allow access to controls back there, a la DSLR's, which makes the camera longer. And worse of all: in that configuration, where the addition of outboard accessories which would be required for a professional production turn the camera into a shoulder-mounted setup--how does one monitor the image in daylight? No supplied Canon external viewfinder. This particularly trend baffles me. The XL series had them, damn, the Canon F1000s SVHS camcorder I bought in 1989 had one. The solution of using a third party like the Alphatron is not satisfactory. Camera manufacturers should be making systems, that work out of the box, so that they are "100% ready to go", not once you source a viewfinder from one company and a clutch mount from another and a cage from a third and a battery mount from another and so on and so on. A true production camera is, for instance, an Alexa, or the new Sony's, which have proper viewfinders and integrated pro battery solutions and mounting points and can go onto nearly any set out of the box (the Sonys do require a bit more help, true, but the basic form factor is still a lot smarter than the Canons).

I'm not saying the Canons are not good cameras. They are. I've used both the C100 and C300 with an EF lens in a simply handheld setup and they are fine. But they are NOT properly designed for higher end work that requires a big build-out, in my opinion. More so than the BMC, true, but I wouldn't hold them up as a gold standard.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I'd say Jim and Charles covered the LA (Vancouver, Chicago, NY..) perspective well. The BMCs aren't designed as a primary camera for high-end, pro shoots. For small-scale indies, the requirements aren't as strict.

As I see it, each of the BMCs offer unique capabilities at low price points. That's the real draw. Want RAW, cheap? BMC. Want 4K with a global shutter cheap? BMC. Want a really small, S16 1080p camera cheap? BMC.

I'm sure that these will find their way into high-end productions where they meet specific requirements. For instance, a global shutter, 4K crash cam has got to have some appeal. But as a primary camera on a big crew shoot? No - unless the combination of features and price solves an important, specific problem.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Charles-
I'm 100% with you on your post....if you go back to my 1st post and what this whole thread was about is the C100 vs.BM...and all I've been saying is the C100 is more ready to go out of the box than the BM....and something I deal with everyday, the functionality of a given camera and how much more "gak" is needed to make it functional. Are the C series an Alexa, no...although I have been pushing the engineers to make one!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Actually it was the C300 vs BMPC. My point was that spending $14k or more for a none 4k camera in 2013 is something that doesn't make sense to me. It may to others, but without a doubt there will be several new 4k cameras coming out this year and next that are likely to put a sizable dent in the value of HD cameras like the C300.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I'm going to start at one end of the spectrum, and that is the one where I met all the folks I have here and at DVX.
The XL line and the DVX were the cameras that these sites were founded on. Cameras like the F55 and frankly even the $14k C300 are a totally different proposition from the cameras we were using then and now.

As Charles said, they were complete packages and with three XLs as our first purchases (before that we always rented $80k Sony SD cameras) we built a thriving professional business. Then I had two $40k Media 100 systems, today I have three new iMacs running $300 FCPX and we produce for high end clients around the country.

There is a huge market - this original place for example - for quality creative and production that simply doesn't require Hollywood production tools. And it's got nothing to do with indie film makers.

Based on this, I think anyone following camera development for the past two years can make one honest assumption: the company that is likely to deliver what this market was expecting to come in the past 3 - 4 years is BM not Canon.

While advanced creative tools like our computers and iPads etc. get better and more affordable, Canon went the complete other direction leaving the XL/DVX base without that logical next generation of camera.

Where's the XL3 with an interchangeable lens and BM quality sensor?
That's what this market has wanted for 5 years.
Where's the basic 60p on any of the cameras under 12k? Panasonic did it on a camera for $1200 and included 50mbs and 72mbs with resolution way better than the 5 line of DSLRs and closer to the C line.

To me these are simple facts and point to a strange direction from where we all were 10 years ago.

In just two years BM has proven to be a company listening, learning and advancing at a clip that simply dwarfs the Canons and Sonys.

They're the company that's likely to up the ergonomics to match the image a lot faster than Canon is to go the other way.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Believe me, Duane. It's between the C100 and the BMD 4K.

I'm considering a purchase roughly around the $5-6K mark and they're the two I've been looking at. The C300 doesn't even come into it.

For me, it comes down to the two main reasons I listed in an earlier post on this thread. And I think that the pros and cons of each have already been well-debated in this thread. Each person has different needs and that will determine which way they go.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Hi Jim.
What is your opinion about the C100 for $5,499? (Or $6,099 with the 24-105mm f/4L lens.)

I've already got 3 cameras that will do 50/60p (if I need a bit of over-cranking), but I don't have a large sensor "video camera" that will deliver an outstanding image.

With the C100, Canon are offering a 4K sensor which gives a tremendous image at a 1080p output. Granted, a Ninja 2 (which I think has come down to something around $600 per a recent report?) would be best for greenscreen work, but I still think it's an outstanding offering in the $5-6K price range.

For the past 8 years, I've been shooting HD with JVC and Sony cameras, so I don't have a vested interest to "defend" Canon, but I personally don't think they've gone in "the complete other direction". Not when you look at the C100.

I do agree that it's been "nobbled" to not compete with the C300, so over-cranking and a higher bitrate codec are missing.

If you need serious over-cranking, the FS700 looks good.

If you need a 4K deliverable or 4K future-proofing, the BMD 4K looks outstanding for its price range.

If you want an outstanding 1080p image from a 4K sensor at 24/25/30p with all of the built-in features of a video camera that you normally "expect", the C100 from Canon is a very solid offering.

Just my two cents.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Was referring to the original recommendation of the C100 or C300 on page 6. The C300 never entered my possible list of choices either due to price and lack of 4k. I agree a camera needs to be tailored to your needs. I do (or at least attempt) high quality/ low volume projects so the high bitrate and quirks of the BMPC aren't an issue. I'd also rather have 4k and not need it than need it and not have it.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Totally the opposite... As i said, I only give opinions on stuff I own. I've had a bmcc for a while now and have put in orders for multiples of both their new cameras.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Canon C300: 1080p,
#built in XLRs,
#phenomenal low light ability (so don't need ton of lights and one can immediately shoot without taking lot of time for lighting),
#great battery life,
#robust codec that can easily be graded using a laptop (so less computing power, quick delivery),
#a 64GB CF card goes on and on,
#good viewfinder/LCD and tools like waveform, zebra etc, No moire
#holds good rental value/overall value,
#Lovely files
#readily available

BMCC: 4K resolution, global shutter (so we hope the moire of the previous version is solved).
#Can't shoot outdoors as the battery will run out and you can't replace it. I guess you need some heavy anton bauer kind of system.

#expensive SSDs, carry truckloads of them. (add the cost)
#Not ready to shoot barebones as you need to rig it.
#You can't handhold it without any rigs due to the odd formfactor.
#No XLRs. So you have to use some kind of juicedLink type mixer (suggesting juicedLink due to lower cost).
#You can't change settings on the fly due to the odd design. So this camera can never be like the extension of your arm/body. You have to search and dive into the menu. So clearly you can't shot fast changing scenes.

#Most importantly, we haven't even seen any output from this production 4K camera. This sensor is different from the previous camera. So we only hear that dynamic range will be lower and sensitivity will be lower.

It is strange that just because of some specs and pricing, people are going ga ga over a company which still hasn't been able to deliver the previous camera even after a year.

Blackmagic has tried to divert the attention from their failure to deliver the version 1 camera by announcing two cameras. With such reputation (or lack of it) I am surprised that people are still running to pre-order.

If one is doing this for hobby then throwing 5-6 k for the BMC plus rig and accessories should be ok as any failure will not have any repercussions. Do that in a production environment and you lose your reputation for ever.

I had wanted the BMC version 1, but changed my mind due to the moire. Else, it would have worked along with my C300 in specific projects. There are channels and production houses who are asking me 720 and some for 1080i (not even 1080p). And here people are talking about 4K.

I am sure everybody is an adult here and hence entitled to their opinions and decisions. No point in being fanboys as money goes out from our own wallet. Good luck to everybody.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Or you could pony up $6 and just change the cable. I already have dozens in my recording studio as much of my outboard gear uses TRS connectors including high end units like the Manley Massive Passive.

LINK to cable Amazon.com: Monoprice 1.5ft Gold Plated 16AWG XLR Female to 1/4-inch TRS Male Cable: Musical Instruments

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Innovators need not be charity organisations nor small inventors. Was Apple innovative making the iPod? innovators build on what already exists. Picasso is still an innovator even though he used paint and canvas. Jimi Hendrix was an innovator using the same chords on the same type of guitar through the same amp that countless before him used...

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I thought that the downfall of not having XLR outputs in the camera was mainly due to the fragility of the quarter inch connections?

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

The main difference is that XLRs are captive. 1/4" are not. I don't believe that it's a fragility thing; it's that the plug can come loose.

Any guitar player knows this. We wrap the cable inside the guitar strap for strain relief. Do that and a 1/4" plug is rugged enough for a punk band on stage. :)

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

It seems you are planning to plug in a microphone directly. And from where will you get phantom power?

XLR connectors are the defacto professional standards due to a reason. XLR connectors, apart from ensuring that microphone doesn't come out accidentally, also don't have the ability to loosen up and make noise.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Fair points, and I'll be the first to admit the 1/4" jacks aren't a perfect interface, but they're certainly workable. For things like interviews I typically use a wireless system that doesn't need phantom power and I also have a couple of outboard pre amps so this isn't an issue for me. My other 4k camera at 144mbps is overkill for interviews though and at 880+ mbps I'm not sure I'll ever use the BM for that purpose but in the event I do it will work with my rig. On the topic of audio I'm more concerned whether the new camera will have input metering which to me is far more critical than XLR jacks.