Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

They say in the video the frame rate limitation is due the cooling requirement. No doubt it's also handy from a market placement point of view.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Really? If that's the case, why not put in bigger heatsinks like the RED cameras? The price point for this sensor if it supported global shutter 60p would be groundbreaking.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

The Red Scarlet has a fan, which has caused noise issues. A quiet cooling system isn't simple and the cooling seems to be why the Ursa is so large with its liquid cooling system.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I re-read the specs of the sensor. It supports 240fps at full resolution in Rolling Shutter Mode and 120fps in Global Shutter mode. It is so possible to use 60fps in Global Shutter mode, it just needs the liquid cooling of the bigger URSA.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I felt like their NAB set was pretty well lit and the thing was set at 400. I shoot corporate stuff in offices where I can augment with a little fill here and there, but doing a full light set up for every shot just isn't practical. I feel like even at 800 I'd need way more.

I wish it would work for me, I love the form factor.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Errr, what? How can built in ND be anything other than a "good thing".....? You can always simply not use it.

Isn't that what the FS100 was most (justifiably) criticised about when it first came out - no built in ND?

Maybe it may add a bit to size and cost, but I can't believe that would be substantial - and probably compensated for by the otherwise lost sales. Even my RX10 has some built in ND, and that's primarily a stills camera.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

It's purists who find built-in NDs to be a disgrace since they theoretically lower image quality more than something that goes in front of the lens. Nevermind cost savings, practicality, workflow, etc.

Overall what you want/need is different than what other folks want/need. Folks would to well to take a chill pill. It's one of the reasons I love DVinfo. So much well-moderated, good, practical information without a ton of the hyper-emotional fanboy BS.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Coming from broadcast cameras, no ND was a complete bypass - no additional glass so no image degradation.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I wonder if the mini has the same "black hole sun" problem as the URSA? Does anyone know?

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Thanks, Michael. DVInfo does tend to run a tight ship. Our motto here is "high signal, low noise" so that people can find what they are looking for without wading through useless postings.

Every year around NAB, we have a flood of debates about new gear that sometimes get a little intense. We keep it as clean as possible.

-gb-

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Wth the new sensor, supposedly is not a problem anymore.

We must not forget that it includes 1000$ worth of software for free, which is getting more versatile each year.

The lack of ND igs not that important for certain types of production
. I suspect that it involves specific know how, that new companies don't yet have.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

The Mini comes with a choice of 2 sensors, the 4k and the 4.6k, no doubt there is a price difference, given that the 4k production camera cost around the same as the "from price" of the new camera. This sensor option is there for the full URSA, except you can't later upgrade the Mini.

You can do 160 fps in HD with the Mini.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Yes, I finally gave up posting on the other site. Just a bunch of kids arguing. I check to see if anybody has added relevant info on the camera, but not much. Just a bunch of hand-wringing.

Thanks, Chris, for giving us this site.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Yep, and I think that anyone potentially interested in the Ursa Minor should hold out for the 4.6k just to see how it performs. I have no interest in the camera with the old 4K sensor.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I'm only interested in the old 4K sensor in the mini if that supports 4k60p global shutter in the mini, since that older sensor cannot switch between rolling shutter and global shutter modes.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

In the Mini, the 4.6K sensor supports up to 30p in global-shutter mode. In the full-size Ursa, it's 60p.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Yes, but I was asking if the old 4K sensor could do 60p at full resolution in the mini. Blackmagic's been quiet and hasn't clarified that yet. The old sensor is global shutter mode only.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Sony custom designed extra thin ND filters specifically for the FS7. My guess is that BMD just didn't have the resources to go that far.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

It can, the mini can do 60p, but only in rolling shutter mode at full resolution. It might require two CFast cards to keep that rate up, but a few folks from BMD have confirmed the maximum frame rate.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I don't think you understand. The old 4K sensor is Global Shutter mode only. If it can do 60p, that would be amazing. The only sensor that can switch between rolling and global is the new 4.6K one.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

No, BMD just keeps prices down to get amazing camera for amazing price to as many indie filmmakers as they can, FS7 is almost 3x the price

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I guess the clue is in how Blackmagic list these cameras: "digital film cameras" and also cinema camera. Film cameras don't have internal filters, at least not in the video camera sense. The Arri Alexa doesn't have internal filters, while the documentary Amira does, although in this case it could be more a matter of keeping the costs down and giving that $3,000 price that has attracted attention in recent years.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

exactly, you'll see how many Red fans will join BMD and Kineraw families.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Oops... I misread the question. I didn't realize it was referring to the older 4K sensor, which I think is only able to do 60p in the v2 version (which isn't really the original) recently introduced as an upgrade for the Ursa.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

There was an interview in which Grant Petty said that ND filters would make the camera really bulky, and since Sony had pulled it off, I figured it was due to BMD not being willing or able to design their own NDs like Sony did.

I imagine that if they'd felt that it was important to sell the camera they'd have put the work in, but for the price and capabilities, I think not having internal ND filters is an acceptable compromise. I can just get some additional step up rings for my Lee filter kit, since the rings I have right now are the right size for my large format lenses. Rings don't cost much. :)

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Well, you virtually never get something for nothing, and in-built NDs must add something to size, cost etc.

But many other cameras show that it needn't come at too high a penalty in any respect and "really bulky" simply smacks of making excuses. If he'd said "will add a little to the size" then yes, fair enough - but "make the camera really bulky"? Sorry, that just sounds like PR spin and making excuses to me.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

:)), yeah, 'really bulky' is kinda overstatement, but i am very intrigued by the Ursa Mini 4.6 K version, let's see the first users footage and i might pick it over the DVX200

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

While Grant's reasoning might be suspect do consider that there are many cameras that don't have ND filters. In cameras that may have an ENG use they're more common than those used for "cinema."

Of course I think this will lead to next year's Ursa Micro which will weigh only 3 lbs and include an ND filter.
I do think there's a cost and development time to factor and it's possible that would have impacted Blackmagic price and delivery time for "this year's" model.

Consider that the JVC-LS300 has it at $4000 and many wouldn't consider it a quality competitor to the Ursa Mini

The Sony FS-7 has it at $8000. Perhaps the addition cost and time for delivery would have bought the Ursa Mini farther behind. Blackmagic may have been left with the decision to add AD Filter for a camera that wouldn't be announced until IBC and delivered around NAB 2016.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Also really wish DNxHR MXF support would come for PC people to edit without relying on Quicktime. DNGs take up a ton of space.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Built in NDs would of course be useful, but given the functionality and price, I think it's still a bargain, so I'm willing to live with it.

I'm #2 in the preorder queue with my vendor, so hopefully you'll be able to see some footage fairly soon. I'm planning on dragging that beast up a mountain or two as well as using it in studio shoots, so we'll see. :)

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

Marco Solorio of OneRiver Media has a blog post comparing the Mini to the FS7. While he also wishes the Mini had an internal ND filter he makes a very favorable value case for it.

Insight Into The Blackmagic URSA MINI
http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?p=1410

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I was just thinking: the price of the 4.6K mini and the older 4K URSA are the same.

But to put a handle, rail and tripod/shoulder mount on the mini adds a cost of hundreds of dollars. So the larger camera ends up cheaper with its included handle, rail and tripod mounts.

And sure the sensor is older, but it's upgradable! So in a year or two years (or conceivably forever) you'll always be able to replace just a sensor. It seems like a much better investment in both the short term and the long term. Am I wrong about this?

It seems the only reason to get a Mini over the URSA is if you can't bear the thought of lugging around 7 kilos of camera! I sure can't, for that matter...

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

To be honest, my main reason for preferring the Mini over the standard Ursa is for using it on a gimbal. For regular production, the Ursa's size and weight end up being comparable to what you'd end up with using most other production cameras once they're fully rigged up. And an Alexa weighs slightly more, and is about the same size...

With a proper shoulder mount, the Ursa would be fine for most situations even handheld. I operated an Aaton super-16 camera for a short film project, and ended up with that camera on my shoulder for several full days of production. It wasn't a problem, and that camera weighed about as much as an Ursa, only with the film rolls on it, it's a fair bit bulkier.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

The Eclair NPR was used handheld for like a bazillion films, and it weighed a ton.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

It would be interesting to find out how much the Imax camera that Hoyt van Hoytema used to film a large part of Interstellar weighs, since he shot a lot of that film hand held.

When you account for the fact that the only rigging you really need besides a good shoulder mount to make an Ursa work well on a shoulder is a viewfinder, its weight seems a lot smaller since it includes so much. That's probably a contributing factor in its price, as well, since it's an all-in-one system that's basically mass-produced. Making it more modular would raise its production cost quite a bit.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

This never works out. You can replace the engine in your car when a more fuel efficient one comes out, but given the cost of the engine and the cost of installing it, you'd do better to sell (or junk) the car and buy a new one.

I haven't seen the upgrade options for BM specifically, but I've never had a good experience with an "upgradable" central part of a piece of equipment. Never pencils out.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

They've pulled it off for one generation at least, since they started with a 4K sensor and are now offering as an upgrade a significantly nicer 4.6K sensor, at least on paper. The big question is, how far can they go?

Red's been able to stretch parts out across several generations, but then you can buy an Ursa Mini for the price of a Red Touch display, or an Ursa Mini + an AJA Cion for the price of a Dragon upgrade ;)
Not that you'd necessarily WANT to do that, but you get the point.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

I hope you don't plan on holding your breath for that "SOON".
FWIW, I'm #1 on the list of one of the largest Blackmagic dealers, and realistically, having been #1/#2 on every pre-order on every BMCC in the past...
I don't expect this camera until September/October, at earliest.

Also.... Sorry... I'm with Mike Watson on the whole concept of the "upgrade". You're better off just tossing your old one in the trash and buying a whole new one in the case of low cost cameras like the BMCC, where the downtime is more expensive than the upgrade.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

That's why I said "hopefully" :)

I suspect that you're right about that; odds are these guys will be delayed quite a bit. I'm hoping not, but BMD doesn't exactly have a great track record in that regard.

BMCC, yes. Ursa though, they actually pulled off one upgrade. The Mini is in the same class as the BMCC though; it's an all-in-one unit, so when it's time to upgrade, it's also time to sell off the old one.

Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini
 

It would probably also compromise the camera's ergonomics.