Audio for documentary
 

I am shooting a history documentary this summer and I will have an on camera person talking where I need to record her voice talking via a wireless lavalier and than I would like to record the ambient noise and "room tone" via a shotgun mike...the 2 microphone will not interfere with each other???????
I mean the shotgun will not pick up the voice of the on-camera person also and cause problem???
Thanks

It can cause a problem if the two tracks are mixed together at full strength. If the two mics are recorded to separate tracks, and this separate control is maintained during the editing process, then the two signals can be carefully selected or blended at varying strengths to give the best sound as the situation changes.

Here's a thought. Record your on-camera personality with the lavalier mic, THEN record an equal duration of ambient sound from the room, which you can mix together with the dialog in post. You will have the flexibility to use just the right level of ambient sound, and the dialog won't conflict.

I would use the camera 2 XLR in connection 1for shotgun 1 for the wireless.....If I have to do as Joshua suggested it would be really hard...!!
How the pros do it on the discovery channel and so ?? They use boom poles ? When they talk in front of the camera but you can still hear the street noise and the ambient noises I dont think they all added in post...!! Or you can hear then through the wireless lavalier ???

You will hear some background noise with the lav. If you know how much ambience you will need and the lav isn't picking up enough, Joshua's suggestion is a good one.

In very noisy environments, you might hear too much noise with just the lav. The first step to controlling that should be to position the talent with their back to the noise. If there is still too much noise, you'll have to consider using either:

1. An RE50 handheld omni held about 4 inches from the mouth.

2. A Countryman E6 headworn mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford

mic solutions for my documentary???
 

hey there, i was hoping someone could shed some light on audio solutions for the GL2 for me. heres the scenario.....
iam shooting a travel documentary, kind of an adventure thing...think "amazing race" but slower. Iam definetely not going to have a sound man and besides going the wireless lav route, i was hoping to get a mounted mic setup on my GL2. shots will be generally between 3-10 feet from the "personality" and basically be a "moving interview". (oh, and outdoors)
does anyone have a good all around solution in terms of a mic setup?
it'd be a great help!
Jeff

The opportunities for audio disaster with your proposed camera-mounted plan are many. Wireless lav will be much less problematic. Why not use one?

Regards,

Ty Ford

I think he meant in addition to going the wireless lav route, at least that's the way I took it. If he didn't mean that, then I agree with Ty, I would use a wireless lav as a primary and then a camera mounted mic as secondary and ambient.
For on-camera I'd vote for the AT897. Plus you'll need an XLR adapter to use both mics together and have some additional control.
There are several candidates for wireless. You should work with a dealer who is familiar with where you're traveling and the frequency rules for those locales.

Hmm. Jay I may have to hire you as my interpreter..:)

If that's the case, I wouldn't bother with the 897.

There is this thing with some producers who want to lav and boom the same person so they'll have a safety or a choice.

I'm not sure whre it started, but most sound people sort of snicker (to themselves) when this is requested. First, to use pieces of each mic on the same final track, you need a boom mic and lav that are somewhat similar. Second, due to placement, you're not going to get a good match.

That sort of matching is usually done with great care by post production people with lots of toys and experience.

Third, monitoring a boom in your left ear and a lav in your right ear is very disconcerting. Most audio people end up choosiing to listen to one and forgetting about the other.

Record the wireless to both tracks of the camcorder. That way, if you have drop out, you can hope to pick the same audio up on the other channel. If you don't have a mixer with a good limiter set one channel to 5 dB lower than the first in case someone SCREAMS.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Okay, so going the wireless lav route, what would be a good choice for failsafe equiptment?

How much money do you have?

Start at the top with Audio Ltd., Lectrosonics, Zaxcom, and top shelf Sony, Sennheiser.

come on down to AT, Shure, Sennheiser G2 and , hmmm someone chip in here.

Regards,

Ty


Do a frequency scout to make sure whatever you get works in your area (or where you'll be shooting) NTSC and DTV stations can kill wireless qiuckly, as will other rf sources.

Be careful with the Audio Technica, I had a rather long one (Mod # escapes me but it was $250), depending on how you mount it, it will drop down in to the frame of view. You won't see it in your lcd monitor, but when you look at your NTSC monitor...oooops! And you definetly need an adapter such as the MA-300 that will give you two xlr inputs. When I first got the AT for my GL2, the sensitivity was so low that it was almost useless, untill I got an MA300 then it was much improved.

Um, we're talking about wireless mics at the moment. I can only presume you're talking about a camera mounted mic.

As for low level AT mics into a GL2, I'd suggest something was wrong with the hookup.

Perhaps you chose a mic that required phantom power. It appears the GL2 doesn't provide phantom power.

Please also note that phantom power isn't as easy as yes/no. Without giving it all away and boring the pants off some folks. Some mics require a full 48 V DC phantom supply, others are designed to operate on less.

You need to supply the industry standard Sennheiser 416 with a full 48 V DC or is just doesn't wake up. Other phantom powered mics may sort of work but sound like crap. Still others may work, but sound like crap because they are designed to sell to meet market demands instead of quality demands.

There's a lot more to good audio than plug and play.


Regards,

Ty Ford

iam looking at about 500-1000$ for my audio budget. iam definetly looking at canons dual xlr hookup, but besides that, iam not sure about the boom or wirelass lav.
any other suggestions or a list of good products would be appreciated! but you have all been a real big help already!
cheers

Jeff,
I bought the Canon XLR adapter (I think it's the MA-300) for my wedding vid business, and I've always wished I'd gone with a Beachtek instead. Check out this link for a good place to get that:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=136400&is=REG

Or, just search for Beachtek DXA-4P (and others) at www.bhphotovideo.com

Depending on which mic you go with, you might need another of Beachtek's models, but I would definitely stay away from the MA-300. It fits awkwardly on top of the camera and the built-in shotgun mount isn't that great (picks up camera rumble). What's worse, it's made of thin plastic and doesn't feel like it would stand up to the rigors of a trip like you describe in your first post. Plus, the Beachtek and the MA-300 cost about the same.

/my 2-cents

cheers Luke!

I second that on the flimsyness of the MA300. But if I'm not mistaken, doesn't the Beachtek plug into the 1/8"mini-jack while the MA300 fits into the hotshoe making for a tighter connection and one less cable to run? I thought that made for better sound.

Yes,
The Beachtek does plug into the 1/8" socket, but I don't know if that means the sound is any worse. I'll have to defer to the audio experts on that one. I'd like to know if that's the case.

Having it plug into the 1/8" hole Does free up your hotshoe for something else, though. Maybe a camera light that runs on your GL2 battery.

For what it's worth, I've been entirely pleased with the Canon-brand detachable light: the VL-10LI
It's just enough light to do what I need it to do, and it doesn't throw off the color temp too badly. It runs on another battery, though, so you'll need another one of those. I use the slim battery that came with the camera for the light and have 3 heavy-duty batts for powering each camera. Works great.


Jeff--be sure to report back to this forum after your trip is over.
Maybe post some clips or something. That kind of project sounds like a lot of fun to a poor overworked grad student like myself.

a high impedance mini/3.5mm/eighth input doesn't sound any different than an XLR/lo impedance input. No worries. They are flimsier, and have potential issues due to cable lengths, but that's not related to the connector, it's a different issue.

Audio Needs for My Documentary
 

I'm prepping to shoot a doc down in Mississippi. I'm pretty much used to doing my own audio in run and gun situations but for this shoot I want to bring a sound guy and boom pole. My question is: should the sound from the boom mic go directly to the camera or through a mixer (or other device) that my sound guy carries so he can directly monitor the audio before it goes to the camera. Would it also be a good idea to run it to DAT as well?

A Sound Devices MixPre or similar at the boom operator is ideal for this sort of thing, especially if you take a headphone feed back from the camera so he can monitor both what the mic is sending and what the camera is recording.

Depending on your needs and camera, you can probably get perfectly usable audio by just recording sound to the camera.

Of course, having a backup can be handy. But I wouldn't record to DAT for the situation you describe. Tapes aren't cheap, the recorders are big, and getting the audio off of tape and into you NLE takes some work. I still work with DAT, but not often for low-budget, personal projects.

Perhaps recording to a small hard drive recorder that the sound guy carries is all you need. I occasionally use a (no longer made) Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3 for low-budget and/or transcription use. Our you could use certain models of the iRiver recorder/players. Or one of the growing number of recorders from Edirol, M-Audio, and the like. Search here on "MicroTrack" and you should find some good discussions.

Basically, you'll have a digital file that you can bring into your NLE w/o too much work...and hopefully you'll just need those files to only cover rare audio glitches with the videotape audio...So maybe use clappers before really key shots, but otherwise just let it run wild...

Well, I gotta get back to work. Hope this gives you some little help...

Jim

We do have a bit of a budget and a set delivery date. Quality is important as is anything to save us time in post.

>budget

Cool. If you can afford it, buy or rent a nonlinear recorder like a Zaxcom Deva, Sound Devices 744T (or perhaps a 722), or even a Fostex FR2...or maybe the new Tascam HD-P2. I can vouch for all but the Tascam (it's pretty new). The Tascam take timecode in, but won't generate timecode.

But again, if you just need backup, a less-expensive hard-disk recorder (like those mentioned earlier) could do the job. Because a good sound guy or gal will help make sure you get good sound onto your videotape.

Best,

Jim

Thanks Guys.

I found an audio recorder that records WAV to flash media. Since I only need to back up 1 track, this will be plenty and cheap.

Suitable mic for doco
 

G'day people,

I'm going to be doing a doco about teachers in Australia, and I currently own a Rhode video mic... which is pretty much directional as it only records anything it points at. (I have an FX1 btw...)

But I'm not sure this would be apporpriate for the kind of doco work I'm doing. I'll be in class rooms, theatre stages, playgrounds and staff rooms. And I thought, what mic would be the best (one thats not so directional?)

Thanks...

There's really no "one size fits all" mic that would cover every situation you might encounter. Can you be a little more specfic about the scenarios you anticipate where you feel the Rode won't be suitable? Are you working by yourself or will you have a sound person/boom operator/mixer with you?

I'm going to be on my own for this....

The one thing I'll need int he sound department is to capture sounds that the camera doesnt see... Basically, I'll need lots of school noise, classrooms and kids shouting etc.... The Rhode will only be pulled out for interviews and focused stuff...

The reason for the all the noise shots is to show how some of the rural schools I'll be going to run, operate, and if I can fill the space with sound, all the better. (i'll be narrating over it during these shots as well.) So its good bacground noise as well

One scenario when I went in to visit (no camera) I was walking with a teacher through a playground, a well liked one, and you kept hearing "Miss Miss, miss" from the kids. and it always forced me to turn my head. If I can replicate that, or get something that can make the audience feel that what the kids have to say is important, and invite the audience to turn and listen.

Hi Leo
As Steve says there is no real all round mic for the type of stuff you want. I too shoot Documentary style clips with an FX1 on my own and face the same type of dilemma as you..

The most versatile all round mic I've found is the AT897. It sits nicely on the camera, is a pretty good boom mic, and even doubles as a handheld when needed. I use this mainly for the ambient audio either on camera or on a stand.
I double this with a Sennheiser radio lav set up. This I use for getting good dialogue audio from the subject. Incidentally combining the AT897 and the Senny trasmitter/receiver give a pretty good wireless handheld set up for Voxpop type situations..

I feed the AT into one channel and the Senny into the other and can then adjust the levels and mix in post.

If I have more than one person speaking it's a case of finding someone to hold the boom mic...not ideal but has worked up to now. I can't afford or justify a sound person with me all the time so make do on my own.

Hope this helps

Gareth

What you're recording is called "wild sound" in the trade - sound that isn't recorded synced to action taking place on the camera. You can record wild with a portable recorder of some sort - I think the m-Audio Microtrack 2496 would be a good candidate for this as well as Marantz 670, Tascam HDP2, HHB's Minidisc reporter's kit, or you can go into more pricey models like the Sound Devices 722 or 744. The Microtrack would fit into a pocket while the others you'd carry slung in a bag over your shoulder. On a budget some of the iRivers and Minidisc recorders can work well in this application.

There are a lot of decent mics to choose from - omin's are a good choice for general environmental sounds, cardioids or hypercardioids for situations such as interviews where you want to isolate the sound being recorded from the surroundings. Dynamics tend to be less prone to handling noise than condensers and don't drain the recorder battery as fast since they don't require phantom power.

I'd suggest you do NOT try to record narration "in the field." Maybe a pocket mini-recorder to make vocal notes, but narration requires the closed and controlled environment of recording in studio to be really effective. It needs more presence and intimacy with the viewer than can be achieved recording in the field. You can narrate to picture by recording directly to a fresh audio track in your NLE as you watch the visuals in preview.

Audio Gear For Documentary
 

I have a question for all the audio experts on this forum. I've learned a ton from all of you by lurking (I'm primarily a video guy) and now have a specific situation that I'd like some advice on. I run Shack Productions, a production company in Chicago, IL. I am in the process of putting together audio gear to be used for a documentary that we'll be filming in Poland and Israel for two weeks later this Spring. My production company has done primarily narrative work in the past and used a shotgun. However, I am putting together a couple wireless lav rigs for this doc. The doc will be fairly "run and gun" and has a pretty limited budget so we have to do things on the cheap.

I'm wondering if I could get some advice about my gear purchases, any set up gotchas to watch out for, and general advice about my approach. FYI, we will need to mic guides who will be leading groups of teens through Poland and Israel for two weeks. We will be putting the mics on different guides everyday and shooting a lot of exterior "walk and talks".

Here's the relevant gear that I'm considering for the doc:

Already own:
- Camera: Sony PD150
- Shotgun Mic: Sennheiser ME66
- Mixer: Samson Mixpad 4 (Just purchased off of ebay based on Douglas Spotted Eagle's high praise)

Considering purchasing:
- 2 Cheap MiniDV cameras (Used for participant's video diaries)
- 2 Wireless Receivers: Audio-Technica Pro 88W - Camera Mountable VHF Lavalier System
- 2 Lav Microphones: Either Giant Squid or Audio-Technica 830mW Omnidirectional

Note: I understand that a well placed cardoid mic could get better sound than an omnidirectional, but I think our shooting circumstances may require more latitude for incorrect (or accidentally bumped) mic placement. I also understand that there are much better wireless receivers out there than the AT Pro88W, but for our budget, they seem to be the best alternative. We will not be shooting at great distances from the talent since we know the potential limitations of these receivers.

Currently, here is my plan:

Run the ME66 shotgun into the Mixpad 4 with a hard left pan and put the two lavs into the Mixpad 4 with hard right pans. Then, run the left and right Mixpad outputs into the PD150 so that they are separated for the edit. I am anticipating using the lav channel for guide dialogue and the shotgun for ambient noise, participant reactions etc.

Here are my questions:

1. Does the general approach of panning the shotgun left and lavs right and separating them when feeding into the PD150 make sense?

2. Am I going to need an attenuator before going into the PD150? I assume I will go into the PD150 as line rather than mic, but I can't quite wrap my brain around how to calculate whether or not I'll need an attenuator between the mixer and the camera.

3. What are the steps that I should take to make sure my levels are set correctly? I assume I should set the PD150 levels to a fixed point and make adjustments on the mixer. What should the PD150 fixed level be? And, are there good steps to setting up the levels correctly on the mixer for each new person (or location) that we'll be shooting? Along these lines, should I monitor with headphones in the Mixpad or the PD150? I know some higher end mixers allow you to switch back and forth...

4. The Audio-Technica Pro 88W wireless receivers output 1/8" Mini unbalanced. Is there a way I can get this back to balanced to feed into the mixer? Do I need to?

5. Any thoughts about whether I should purchase the Audio-Technica 830mW Omnidirectional or the Giant Squid equivalent instead?

6. Any recommendations on cheap single chip mini dv cameras that get decent audio? I'm planning on buying a few off of ebay. They will be used for video diaries. I'm fine (in fact want) the video to look different than the PD150, but know that good audio will be critical.

If you're not familiar with the Mixpad or Wireless rigs, here are links to specs:

Mixpad:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/r...cs/m4_spec.pdf

Pro 88w:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wl...ec4/index.html

Giant Squid (not sure which mic I'd use specifically):
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com...-micline1.html

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to be organized to help you answer my questions effectively. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

Matt

Anyone willing to take a crack at it?
 

I know it's a long post with a bunch of questions. I'll focus it up a bit...

Other than wondering if my general approach makes sense, the question I'm most curious about is how to properly set levels on the PD150 and the Mixpad mixer?

I assume I should set the PD150 levels to a fixed point and make adjustments on the Mixpad mixer. What should the PD150 fixed level be? Are there good steps to setting up the levels correctly on the mixer for each new person (or location) that we'll be shooting?

Thanks...

Reference materials
 

I'm not dodging the questions per se, but it might be worth your while to check out two excellent books on audio for video: Ty Ford's 'Audio Bootcamp Field Guide' ( www.tyford.com ), and Jay Rose's marvelous book: 'Producing great sound for digital video' ( www.dplay.com ). there's a ton of really useful information in both of these..
Rgds, Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for the input
 

I actually own Jay Rose's book and read it about a year ago. Unfortunately, I let someone borrow it and haven't had much success getting it back. I didn't have many opportunities to apply the lessons from Jay Rose's book over the past year so a lot of the details have slipped into the foggy areas of my brain...

I'll just go out and buy it again and will definitely look into Ty Ford's book. From reading his posts on this forum I know he's quite knowledgeable.

Thanks again,

Matt

my suggestion to you is not invest in garbage and hire better equip , dont know about Poland , but in Israel you can get what ever you like for your porpoises and budget , not to mention you will carry less and would have back up from renting company .

Rental Company Thoughts
 

Do you have recommendations for rental houses in Jerusalem? At this point we're not going to be renting gear because we've already purchased equipment, but it's always good to have a back-up.

Thanks.

the 95 % of the reputeted places are in tel aviv
if you will be in trouble call me and i will trll you who s to contact
the places i deal are 90% lectrosonics only rentings , no low end wireless
email me to kaizero1@gmail.com
ill back to you with my phone number

Oleg, I just emailed you for contact info. Thanks a lot.

which sennheiser mic for documentary?
 

I am shooting a documentary with an XL2 that consists of multiple interviews. So far I shot one interview with an Azden SGM-X but wasn't completely satisfied. I am going to rent a mic for the rest of the interviews and was trying to decide between a Sennheiser MKH-416 and a Sennheiser ME-66. The MKH-416 is only 5 bucks more so money is not an issue. I am going to be mounting the mic on my XL2. The MKH-416 retails for about 500 more than the ME66 so that seems like the obvious choice but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with these 2 mics and could make a suggetion.

Thanks
-Jim

Mics
 

I've used the 416 in an interview, mounted on the camera... and it sounded pretty good, but not as good as a sennheiser lav mic fastened to the interviewee. For me at least, the audio coming from the lav mic in this situation was much deeper and richer.

As people have been saying here, I guess the 416 (shotguns in general) doesnt work well mounted on the camera unless the camera is very close to the subject.

David