I was looking around the Community (this community that is). And I found a very interesting thread which is way too technical for me, but is dealing with some related issues to those mentioned here, especially in this thread.

The topic is "Special Interest Areas > Alternative Imaging Methods > Home made camera designs?".

These guys are maniacs, and I feel like a pharmacist compared to the mad scientist in that thread - I wish I knew what they were talking about!

But there are a few things I could picked out of there discussion which may be of interest in this thread. Here are some links I stole from the "Home made camera designs?" people.

http://www.fase.co.jp/IEEE1394en/PC-CUBE/

http://www.alternaware.com/

If someone could bring these two things together, then maybe we could build a cheap D2D solution. It's too bad that the only mac-Cube around is the one that fit under or on your desk.

To answer your questions Daniel - My maximum budget for the D2D would be £600, but remember this device is not just a D2D, it's a mini-computer! Basic SBCs seem to go for £250 - 350. Firewire modules are about £90. The rest of the budget would be on a small LCD screen, power supply and enclosure. I would have to use Win XP Embedded (only 160mb) on either a flash card or 2.5" drive. I have not decided whether to have the video drive internally (IDE) or externally (firewire) mounted.
The capturing would be done by your favourite NLE software, so re-rendering does not occur, and you could even plug in a monitor to edit if you want!
A cheap way would be to raid an old laptop because they all use SBCs. The only trouble is finding out which ones have PC104-plus expansion sockets (PC104 does not work with firewire modules). If it all works, hopefully within two weeks of getting all the bits, I promise to do a Mac version!
That Cube thing looks like what I am doing except with a faster cpu. Shame it has to use mains power though, and why does it use a 3pin XLR for the 12v supply instead of the video industry standard 4pin? Do you know how much it costs?

I don't know how much the cube costs, I didn't even really read everything on the linked page, because I don't know enough to evaluate what's listed there, it's all too technical for me.

It looks like you didn't include the cost of the HDD.

I like the idea of raiding an old laptop - that was basically what I was trying to do at the start of this thread. I just don't have the technical knowhow to get rid of the stuff in the laptop that is not "needed" so that it would be small enough to mount on the camera or be carried on ones body. You seem to think that one only needs the SBC part of the computer for the capturing functionality. It sounds simple, I wonder why the manufacturers have been having so much trouble getting the things to work.

Strange about the power jack on the cube - maybe thats a standard in Japan. I've seen three pin XLR power used before. DEDO lights used to use them. Kind of dangerous if you are shooting with sound cables on set. I'd hate too see what happens when you plug a stereo mixer into a DEDO transformer.

I can't wait to see your first prototype.

Cheers,

<<<-- Originally posted by Neil Goodwill :

The main problem is what we would need to be displayed on an LCD screen. If a touchscreen module was incorporated the whole OS desktop would be visible, and a matchstick could be used as a pointer. Please let me know your thoughts on this.
-->>>

To give you guys a sneek peek at what I am building (actually I have it working, but I have dropped frame problems that I mentioned in a different thread).

I bought a "MIPI" (actually 3) on eBay really cheap.

You can see what they look like here:
http://www.ultim8pc.co.uk/index.asp?folder=main&filename=mipi&title=Freetech+Mipi+barebones

it weighs about the same as a laptop.

I am going to get a 7" Liliput VGA touchscreen LCD display for it:
http://www.bigbruin.com/reviews/lilliput/index.php

These two, plus a keyboard, mouse/trackball combo, and the external power supply and all cables all fit into a shuttle softcase/bag:

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=5977&GroupID=37


Pros (once I get the dropped frames issue worked out):

- Direct to disk recording
- Editing via NLE on the spot.
- CD/VCD/DVD burning on the spot (right now mine just has a regular CD drive it it. That will be upgraded eventually).
- Ability to use vectorscopes and waveform monitors in Premiere to calibrate the camera on site.
- Probably can use DVRack as well, only concern is the built-in video card. WIll try to use DVRack demo and see if it works
- Realtime review on the spot of video footage - no rewinding, dumping to PC, etc. necessary

basically all the same advantages that you get w/ a lap top.

Advantages OVER a laptop
- Price ( about 1/2 - 1/3 the price of an equivalent laptop in terms of CPU, etc. - obviously the monitor is not equivalent!)
- If the video display dies, it is easy and cheap to replace it
- Much easier upgrade path (simply replace the CPU, HDD, etc., and desktop components are cheaper than laptop components - besides, how many Celeron 1.7GHz laptops can be easioly upgraded to a P4 3GHz machine?)

CONS

- Portability is the big one. Just as easy to cart around as a laptop, but there is no battery option, hence you are tied to plugging into a wall AC outlet (if anyone knows a solution to this, let me know).
- heavier and less portable and less convenient than something like a FireStore, but so is a laptop. :-) I still think that the laptop option is superior to the FS solution for the same price!


Mine is so cheap because I got it for a steal on eBay. At first I was looking at Mini-ITX MB/Cases (lie a Travla C134 with the Epia M10000 MB). The problem is that the EPIA CPUs are 1.0GHz CPUs, but they are Pentium-calss chips. NOT Pentium II, III, or 4, but Pentium. That pretty much nixed the idea of using one of those, which is too bad, because you can get those VERY small. Some will fit in your car dash where a standard radio would go! THat is small!

There are MINI-ATX, and other Small Form Factor MBs out there that will take Pentium 4 class processors. You just have to google around for them. Lots of people are taking these small MBs and making very unique cases out of them (www.mini-itx.com), making car PCs out of them, etc.

A small case will run around $200, give or take up to $50. You gotta search around. To get an idea of what you can expect to find, check out this site:

http://www.sfftech.com/printdocs.cfm?aid=453

And of course you can build your own as well.

Anyway, there are a host of solutions out there, provided that you know what the pros and cons are of these solutions and are willing to accept their limitations (in exchange you get something far more versatile that a FS solution for 1/3 the cost or less).

Alex F

The reason I did not include the drive price Daniel was because I seem to be able to pick up laptop drives on ebay for very small amounts.
In addition to the PC104plus option I am also into using car pc devices. I have just bought a Cappuccino TX3 on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1498&item=5733185660&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
A very low price considering the cpu is included. Win XP Pro can be used, and I intend to install the video drive and lcd display into the space for the cd drive. If I do not manage to get it working as a d2d I can always use the TX3 in my car!
Another, but larger option is the MP SC1 barebone system at:
http://store.karpc.com/item-MP-SC1-Barebone--MC-MPSC1A
Only £138, and I could use a Socket 370 Celeron I took out of a desktop when upgrading.
I was being naive when I thought of using a matchstick for the touchscreen. It would have to be a stylus, and I am still having extreme difficulty in sourcing a 3.5" display and touchscreen. Does anyone know if a PDA display would work in this situation?

Both of those are really nice. I had looked at the Cappucino when they first came out, but they were much more expensive than what they are going for on eBay!

They are certainly prettier and smaller than my MIPI!

I assume that they are FW 400 ports and not older FW 200 or 100 ports. I was worried about the MIPI because it did not specifically state which they were. I just hoped that they were FW400 since the MB were relatively new (they are FW 400).

I like the fact that my MIPI can take both desktop HDD and laptop drives, and at the same time. This way I can get a 40 GIG 2.5" drive and run my OS off of it, and get a 200+Gig drive just for video storage, and desktop drives are cheaper than laptop drives.

That being said, I think that if I did not get my MIPIs so cheap, I would probably be seriously looking into these two that you mentioned. I like the Cappucino option the best, personally.

Not sure what you mean about installing the video drive and LCD display where the CD drive goes...

I assume that you mean that you will replace the CD drive with a laptop drive, but I don't get how the LCD has anything to do with that.

As far as the LCD goes, you might want to check out the link for the Lilliput LCD display on my previous post.

A PDA display will not work because it is not VGA. It won't take a VGA signal in from the PC, and even if it could, the resolution is inadequate unless you plan on only seeing the "Start" button portion of your desktop. :-)

The 7" lilliput is a VGA monitor, LCD, touchscreen.

Mine will be dual purpose. I will be using it with the MIPI PC for D2D recording, and it will also go in my car for my car PC (another MIPI).

Alex F

This is the spec for a Sharp 3.5" touch display used in many PDAs and SBCs:
http://www.inhandelectronics.com/pdf/LQ035Q7DB02.pdf
From this, perhaps you can tell whether I will get the whole picture or just the Start icon (Which would be extremely annoying!). I may have to buy a controller card for this type of display.
Please have look at:
http://www.cappuccinopc.com/cappuccinotx3.asp
It says that both fw ports run at 400Mbps each. Does this mean they are Firewire 400?
The TX3 will be arriving in about 5 days hopefully, so I will let you know how I am getting on.

I forgot to put this link in my last message:
http://www.tridentdisplays.co.uk/home.shtml
They do a very nice 4" VGA touch display (I was talking to their Scottish sales rep yesterday), but I do not know the price yet.

Yes, the 400Mb is Firewire 400.

The 4" display for handhelds is only 320x240 resolution. Not enough. You are either going to see just the lower corner of your desktop, or everything will be really small and undreadable (small fonts will be just 1x1 or 2x2 pixel groups if you view an entire desktop on the LCD). That, and I don't really know how you would get it to run off of a VGA signal (it may say on the site but I didn't read it).

OK, now I see, they have a 4" VGA display, but it is not really VGA. IOW, with their extra card that you put in the PC (which may or may not fit into the cappuccino) you can run the VGA signal out to the 4" screen. Still the screen is 320x240, which will give you the same problems that I mentioned above. You will only see part of the desktop, or if they scale it from something like 800x600 down to 320x240 it will be pretty much unreadable.

The thing that I like about the 7" Lilliput (and there are other ones as well, both cheaper and more expensive - the cheaper ones are not worth it, and the more expensive Xenarc while more reliable and robust, is not as sharp as the lilliput), is that it is a "real" VGA display. The resolution is 800x480, and the "dot resolution" is 2400x480

Not really sure what the difference is between the resolution and the dot resolution...

Either way it gives you a larger resolution desktop. Lilliput also makes an 8" VGA display that is 4:3 (the 7" is 15:9). The 8" ones actually go for around the same price or less than the 7" ones on eBay simply because there is more demand for the 7" ones from CarPC users.

They also make NTSC versions of these displays, but you do NOT want that. You want the VGA version.

Lastly, if you want to set these things to non-standard resolutions, you can get software call power strip that will allow you to set any resolution (ex. if you want 1024x1024 instead of 1024x768, power strip will allow you to get that whereas otherwise windows and the display drivers will not, natively).

If there are other better or equally as good solutions out there, I would certainly like to know about them!


Alex F

The Cappucino thing looks very interesting. How would you user interface it? I can't imagine how you would be able to connect a touch screen to it....however I have to admit that I can't imagine how you would attach a touch screen to anything. Your project is way out of my class. But I'm just curious: you would normally user interface the Cappucino thing and others with a keyboard and mouse right?

Yes Daniel the TX3 should really have a mouse, keyboard and VGA monitor, but nobody has the time or inclination to fiddle with things like that on location! I know that when I am filming weddings (over 50 this season) I have enough to think about without having to type titles for captured video files.
It would not be necessary to read anything on the 4" display, just to know that when I tap the record icon on the capture program it will start recording on the correct drive (set up before the shoot on a full sized monitor). So far, MediaStudio Pro 7 is the nearest to ideal I have found because the capture screen takes up the whole desktop, and there is no unecessary clutter. If anyone knows a better app. please let me know.
I like the look of the Lilliput, except for the touchscreen using a USB interface. I thought USB should not be used at the same time as firewire, perhaps that is why you are getting dropped frames, Alex. I guess you have done the usual things like disabling indexing and system restore monitoring on the video drive. Also checking this drive has DMA enabled to the correct level with no slow running optical drives etc. on the same IDE channel.
I will probably have to borrow my wife's specs every time I use my TX3!

What about an embeded SBC:
http://www.lannerinc.com/products/ac_em_sbc.asp
Haven't found one with Firewire yet, but it's a start

Yes Valeriu, please see my posts of November 7th and 9th, although it was Joe Carney who had the brilliant idea to use SBCs. The only one I've found that has fw included in the same module is:
http://www.evalue-tech.com/evalueweb/products/specifications/ECm-5716.cfm
It is feasible to buy a PC104plus SBC, and add a fw module.
The cheapest quote I have had is for an Acrosser AR-B1520 which is expected to be (it has not come out yet!) $170.
Alex, you have sold me on a Lilliput screen. The only VGA 640x480 kit I could find was 5.4", and once the adapter board etc. were added it would have ended up being bigger than the Lilliput! Please could you tell me if there is any issue with the USB operating at the same time as firewire.

I am sorry if I have offended anybody, but I would really like a response to my posts because if we are to come up with a viable alternative to the already manufactured D2Ds then time is of the essence.
I forgot to mention that the PC Cube is $2400! Totally out of the ball park I think you will all agree.
The other (of many) problem I have is the battery power supply for the TX3. It needs to be 18 volts at 3 amps. The only manufactured batteries are for power tools and telescopes. I have my own theories on how to achieve a cheaper and more practical alternative, but I would love to have everybody else's ideas. I promise if everything goes mega I will give everybody there due moneywise.

I am thinking about buying a couple of the API-820s and am wondering how you mounted it to the MA-100. It does not look like it comes with a hot shoe mounttn bracket.

Finally sat down and really played with the Pyro drive. And my upgrade worked! I now have an API-820 with a 100GB HDD. Next is to tacke the battery

At last I have got pictures of my Frankenstore Sony DXC-3000AP.
In the pictures it is set up for MPEG2 capture via the Hauppauge WinTV PVR, but this can be substituted for a Hollywood Bridge for DV capture (this is on loan at the moment). Both these devices will be changed soon for ones that are powered from the Cappucino USB/firewire busses (Atlona MPEG2 and Canopus ADVC55 probably).
The biggest problem was providing all the portable power. The mini pc is powered by a Polarmate lithium pack velcro taped to the side of the camera as can be seen on D2D1.jpg. The LCD touchscreen is powered by a Tronic Powercube (7amp sealed lead acid battery) that can just be seen in the bottom left corner of D2D2.jpg. This also provides the 5 volts for the Hollywood Bridge or WinTV, but runs down quite quick hence the change to pc bus power. The camera is powered by an NP-25 Ni-Mh battery that can be accessed by hingeing out the mini-pc.
The external firewire 100gb hdd can be seen on D2D2.jpg in its own cradle made from angled plastic pop riveted together with foam rubber on the inner edges to help with vibration. Pop rivets must be the greatest invention known to man, I don't know what I would do without them!
Any questions, I will be pleased to answer them.

Hi Neil,

All I can say is fantastic! This set-up is true to the name of the thread.

You didn't use enough hot glue for my taste though. :')

There are lots of things I would like to ask you. (some of them quite philosophical) - but I will start with one practical question: how much did this set-up cost you (in money)?

Hi Hot Glue Daniel.
I'm intrigued by your philosophical questions. Probably the first would be how sad and geeky am I?
The camera was bought second hand so many years ago I've forgotten how much I paid. A tripod, special FX generator and TBC were thrown in which confused things. The Frankenstore part cost under £300 because everything came from ebay apart from the 6 inch firewire cable which came fom a company in the USA.
Do you have thoughts about my message 'D2D captures tape preroll'? You have great knowledge of all D2Ds on the market, and I value your opinions.

Hi Neil,

Sorry for not responding very quickly, don't take it personally.

No,... philosophy has nothing to do with the sadness or geekyness of any individual - (other than it may be their very source).

I find your perseverance in building your D2D rig highly admirable.
One of the reasons for my dwindling interest in this forum has been the lack of such spirit.

The D2D forum has degenerated into a troubleshooting and complaint department of sorts. I don't want to complain as well, so I will leave it at that.

Back to philosophy:
My question about the cost of your rig, was a ploy. It doesn't matter how much money you put into buying the parts - you have spent at least three years working on this project - no one can't put a price on that.

The fact that you built the rig, and are using it, and are working on refining it, even when there are "working" (out of the box) products on the market that can do what your rig can do (better?).

Neil, you are afflicted with what I would call Retrofit Syndrome. I didn't invent the term - it it is a condition which has afflicted craftsman, technicians, artists, and inventors since the beginnings of mass-production. Ever since things started coming out of boxs, there have been a few brave people who have dared to drill holes in things where no hole was supposed to be, or have been connecting things together that where not planned to be connected to anything. Anyone who uses a tool to do their work, knows what I am talking about. No tool is perfect until it has been modified to fit the task. Your rig demonstrates that, and the need for that process.

It looks to me like your rig goes beyond (or perpendicular to) its technical purpose. Is it possible that you have been drawn into the sheer desire to see if what you were trying to do will work or not?

If this spirit were existed at the R&D levels of the companies that have created video mutations like HDV (even before DV has been fully exploited), then this forum would have more people writing about rigs like yours, then asking why they can't import mt2 files into their FCP. (I'm complaining again).

Neil,

I just want to thank you for working on your Frankenstore, and for posting your progress. Please, please continue.

You have sussed me out completely Daniel! Thank you, it is like having my own personal psychologist. I have not heard of retrofit syndrome before, but it is definitely what I have, and I don't see why anything should be made obsolete.
I like your reference to HDV, a format that I think is highly suspect, mainly because I can't afford it. I did some HDV camerawork (local college cameras) on a music video six months ago, and my friends are still editing what should have taken about three weeks maximum if it had been done on DVCAM.
Coming soon on Frankenstore:
1. A JVC KY-15 camera that records to an Archos AV500.
2. An AAEON PCM-6896 mini pc mounted in an unfeasibly small enclosure complete with keyboard and touchscreen. Again this is for capturing stuff or editing in the field.
There are loads of other bits and bobs I have developed that are connected with video production, but not D2D. Perhaps I could put them on a different forum.

I don't own an HVX200 myself,so I'm not quite sure how it all works, but has anyone ever thought of trying to make their own p2 card, instead of their own firestore? Perhaps even using something like this: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?...e=14&doy=31m10

In conjunction with an 8gb SDcard, and seeing if the HVX recognises it as a p2 card.My guess would be no, but if I had an HVX200 I'd give it a go myself,since don't p2 cards have PCMCIA interfaces?