Frankenstore
 

Hi ,

I just want to check with the crew before I start this. I have a little trepidation starting a thread that deals with developing a "Frankenstein” alternative to the FS3, mostly because of this topic sections title " Focus Enhancements FireStore D.T.E. Recorders”, and the fact that Matt McEwen (hi!) is running the show. I’ve noticed that in the P+S topic, things have gone off in other directions.

I hope that this is o.k., but, I just want to check.

I work with the FS3 professionally and I like what it does and what it can do. I want Matt and Focus to know that I think that what Focus has done and is doing in this area is cutting edge and, although over due, ahead of its time. I would hate to deprive Focus of any business and thus incentive to continue the development of the FS series, with anything that I post.

Having said all that –

There are a few things that I feel need to be improved on the FS3.

1. The menu structure. Functions like retro cache, need to be easier and more quickly accessible. I would like to use the retro functions (retro cache, retro disc), but at the moment I wouldn’t want to risk switching modes while in action, for fear of missing something while I’m fumbling with the menu. I know that I could remedy this through practice and routine, but since the retro functions are new to how I shoot I’m finding it difficult to justify implementing them. I know that I would get used to them very quickly if I could switch from normal record to retro and back again rapidly.
2. I also find the record status indicators for FS3 unintuitive, both on the FS3 itself and especially the letter codes in the GY-DV5000. Some letters have multiple meanings. Blinking and non-blinking LEDs or letters is not sufficient to let me know what’s going on, especially when things get hairy. I know that I could eventually train myself to recognize the individual meanings of all the letters and blinks, but I would rather not. Symbols like the torn film stripe in the GY-DV5000 is a move in the right direction – but is not very reassuring. I always hope that it means that the FS3 is booting and not that it is having a problem booting.

I started looking into putting a FS3 package together for my XL1.

I think that the price of the FS3 itself is justifiable because it is built well, well thought out, functional, compact, and for reasons of making a professional impression when shooting. I have learned that too quirky looking equipment can shy clients away (or in same cases awake their interest).

Unfortunately, I don’t already own the necessary battery systems one needs to power the FS3. I could set myself up with a battery belt and build my own support system (I would do that anyway) and save a bit of money. But anything less than the Focus suggested battery systems, and especially an IPX battery rig, would be a compromise. Such a battery system is not financially justifiable for me at the moment.

So I am looking for alternatives to the FS3 system, because edit what I shoot and am already hooked on having my files ready when I’m done shooting – starting now - tape is for archiving. Okay starting tomorrow ... I mean soon.

Anyway I have some ideas ...

Does anyone want to hear them, and give me some input?

Does anyone want to put this thread under a different theme heading?

... Am I being too polite?

Let's hear them!

Okay,

I tried getting information about the ADS Pyro DV Drive (API-820) because I thought that that would be the simplest and least expensive alternative to the FS3, around $700 for 30 gigs.

All the wholesalers or retailers that distribute for ADS who I asked could not tell me anything about this drive system. And a technician from the ADS’s web page took four days to send me an email stating that he believed that API-820 "should” work with PAL cameras. In the API-820 PDF handbook, there is no mention of any video standard NTSC or otherwise. So I have given up on that alternative for the moment.

If anyone has any experience with the API-820 (ADS Pyro DV Drive) and PAL camera, I sure would like to know about it. I should probably put that question in it’s own thread.

Some of the disadvantages to a Pyro DV Drive vs. the FS3 is the lack of functions like Retro cache, Retro disc, time-lapse, no triggering via the record button from the camera, no TC slave, and no 4 channel Audio. Most of things would be nice to experiment with but I can live without them. For me at the moment the most important things, other than compatibility with my system, are easy triggering of the record function, mobility, and reliability. If the API-820 was compatible with DV PAL, it could be mounted directly on the XL1 making it easy to trigger it and to see that it is running.

My Frankenstein solution is a bit more complicated, and although I know that it will work, as far as DVPAL is concerned, I’m not sure how well it will work practically.

For about the half of what a FS3 would cost me here in Germany, including the mounting rig and Battery system, I can purchase a 12” i book G4 800 Mhz from Apple with a 60 GB internal HDD and an extra LiIon Battery (that Apple says will hold 6 hours (hah)). But even if one battery holds 2 hours, that would do. The i book is small enough that I could mount it to my chest. Using a modified USB game pad as record trigger, and the LCD / Video adapter connected to a LCD monitor mounted on the XL1 as a viewfinder/ record indicator. I would use the B-TV software created by Ben Bird (shareware) http://www.bensoftware.com/
to capture to disc. This software has a more sophisticated time-lapse capability than the FS3 offers. And since I do a bit of time-lapse that is another reason for me to try and build this system. B-TV is also good for triggering animation, and pixelation.

I’m not really looking forward to having a laptop strapped to my chest when shooting , partially because , having people asking me "Excuse me, but what have you got strapped to your chest?” all the time can be quite disturbing after a while. On the other hand it will be good to have the weight off the XL1 since I do a lot of hand camera work with it.

I will miss not being able to record 4 channel audio.

That’s it.

What does anyone think?

I'd put the laptop on my back, not on the chest if you decide to
go down that road. This is of no use to you now, but I do hope
future camera's will just be able to record directly to a firewire
harddisk if they detect one.

I expect that it won’t be long before a whole pallet of HDDs for video cameras will be available. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I can’t wait. Not having a camera at my fingertips makes me uncomfortable. Most of my jobs at the moment come on short notice.

As far as putting the laptop on my back –I expect , unfortunately, that I will have to access the laptop periodically while shooting. In general, I don’t like to put my camera down when I’m working. That doesn’t mean that I’m some kind of nut who can’t stop shooting once I’ve started. If you put your camera on the floor to change something, or on a table, especially in the heat of things, or when everyone is concentrating on what ever they’re doing on set, there is a big chance that your camera is either going to get stepped on or knocked over. That is one advantage to having everything on one unit – the camera never leaves your hands, even when you are checking things. If I have the recorder on my back – I will basically have to get undressed to do anything to or with it.

That's true. I was assuming you would go for a single external
start/stop record perhaps with a sound letting you know that it
has stopped or started recording (use different sound for both).

It was just a thought...

I’ll have to see how the set-up feels in action. Maybe putting the laptop in a hanging type shoulder bag will be best (although I can’t imagine it would) I am always surprised what works best with such rigged arrangements. I’ve ordered the 12” i book and I will put the set up together as soon as the i book has arrived.

I’m planning to start and stop recording with an USB programmable game pad or mouse. It would be great if there was such a thing as a programmable one button USB devise that I could use as a record trigger. I need something that is small enough that when I attach it to the camera it won’t be in the way. Something like the USB on/off (I-cue) switch for the mac extended keyboards. But it has to be programmable so that I can give it the keyboard command, which starts B-TV recording.

I won’t need a record indicator, ( a start stop sound is also a good idea) because I will see the computer screen on the LCD monitor which is also affixed to the camera. B-TV shows a second count while recording.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

Here's a link for a company that does the button you want.
 

This company makes buttons you can program to make any keyboard command you want through USB.

Hope this helps!

http://www.xkeys.com/

Thanks Kevin,

Very cool link!

Does anyone know if this would work?
A handheld computer with a firewire port (iPod or similar) connected to a 2.5" external 4,200rpm drive with 2 firewire ports, one of which then goes to the camcorder. The handheld would have a capture app installed.
I doubt whether this solution would be cheaper than a dedicated dv drive, but it would possibly be more flexible. On the other hand it may be just a nightmare!

I don’t know of any Hand held computers with capture software. Is there such a thing? Or is there such software? – Is there a Palm Pilot like hand held with Firewire?

I know that the Laptop variation will work ... I also know that it will be a nightmare, for active jobs. That’s why I have also ordered a MCE Quickstream as well. I would have just gone with the Quickstream, but my timing has been bad. I may try and sell the i-book I ordered. If I don’t, I plan to build the setup I am suggesting, to prove that it will work. It will be an ideal setup for remote Time-lapse and studio work. I just have to get a few more jobs of that type to justify the investment.

But it would be nice to know if anyone has heard of a Hand held with Firewire. I wouldn’t use an i-Pod because of it’s primitive display. But maybe there is something else out there.

FWIW...

I'm using an ADS API-820 with an NTSC Canon XL1s. I have the unit mounted to the MA-100 Canon XLR bracket. Fundamentally, it's very convenient because I can set the HD to "record" by pressing the button, and the disc begins capturing from the 1394 port as long as the camera is turned on. The disadvantage is that sometimes the HD takes a long time to initialize, otherwise, I'm happy with this solution. Since the stream is captured directly from the 1394 bus, and the drive allows selection of any number of formats, e.g. AVI, QT, I don't see whether it should care if it's PAL or NTSC.

I was unsure about the PAL / NTSC computability of the API-820 because the people at Focus told me that the FS3 comes in a PAL and a NTSC version. They couldn’t tell me why. I suspect it’s a marketing thing.

Anyway I didn’t like the fact that ADS didn’t state clearly that their API-820 is PAL compatible. That’s why I have ordered a MCE Quickstream – It is clearly stated that the Quickstream is PAL compatible, in their product description.

ADS should take steps to change that on their web site if they want to attract European customers.

Where did you order your MCE from Daniel? The suppliers in the UK have told me the QuickStream has not arrived yet.
If the ADS was a lot cheaper than the MCE then I would go with that, but there is not enough difference in price and the MCE offers a lot more.
I agree that ADS are not making their drive very attractive, and there is a distinct lack of distribution in this country. Maybe if it was better the price would come down.

Hi Neil,

I ordered the Quickstream over the MCE web site directly. I’m having it shipped to an address in the US, I’m going to be visiting in two weeks. I couldn’t find any distributors of ADS products here in Germany that wanted to help me order the Pyro DV Drive. So I’m assuming that the technology is too new and that MCE would have the same problem. Since I’m going to be in the States anyway, and I need a solution sooner rather than later, I’ve decided to solve the problem this way. I don’t like the fact that if I have any problems with the MCE Quickstrem, I’ll be kind of stuck. I hope for the best.

I can’t imagen that ADS’s strategy is to keep the price up by making it hard to get their products – they’re not selling gold, or heroin. But then again, I’m not a financial strategist. I think it has to do with bad planning and organization on the part of ADS.

Cheers,

Concerning the quickstream:

Mine arrived, had several extremely frustrating problems - audio dropout, non functioning battery - so i shipped it back to the states. Quickstream - to their credit - has been responsive and promised me a new drive. However the whole process has now taken me three months since the order date.

I will continue to post as this situaton unfolds.

Thanks Emmet, for your report.

It doesn’t sound very encouraging though. I hope the new one they send is ok.

Keep us posted

Mr. Kohl, if Mr. Lucey continues to post, a Wrangler will split his topics out of the thread if appropriate.

Okay.
Thanks,
Sorry if I've overstepping my bounds.

Does anyone know much about the Shining Technology CitiDISK?
I noticed that Datavision have reduced their whole range of these drives, so I emailed them to ask them why. It appears that they have a new supplier so are selling the old stock. More significant is that version B (does other formats besides raw DV)has a firmware problem which Datavision are working on.

The Creative Labs Zen handheld has a firewire port. I am just waiting to hear back from Creative if they know whether full res dv capture is possible. There are a few second hand Zens on ebay at the moment.

Dear Daniel,

Dont you think tying a laptop on ur shoulder or back or chest is gonna be restricting ur shoot considerably. moreover firewire connections are so delicate that it may ot take jolts of slight jerk whilst shooting infield. i broke a cable while shooting with my DV200 attched to FS3 ... it is not a practically possible solution when compared to the ease of use with FS3 though a bit pricy...but i am sure once you buy & start using it you will recover its cost with the numerous wys you can harness the power of FS3.

This my personal thought...you may differ.

please forgive me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that DV files needed a relatively fast hard drive to record. 7200 or at the least 5400 but I heard that something spinning so slow as 4200 wouldn't adequatley record a DV signal (i.e. you'd get drops out s and stutters and other stuff that doesn't sound very good) Other wise wouldn't it just be easier to buy a 40gb ipod and download some software so that it could take in footage?

Frankenstein is alive and well, and living in Dundee!
I have just bought an empty LaCie Pocket firewire/USB2 casing on ebay for £29 (the original drive had been stolen apparently!), and plonked in a brand new Hitachi 4200rpm ATA100 disk (also from ebay - £84). The result - perfect capture and record with no dropped frames for hours on end through my laptop with an Orange Micro firewire hub providing the 5v power for the LaCie.
I think a manufacturer would clean up if they brought out a front end mini OS without any frills that could plug in to a drive of your choice, and priced at £100-150.

I have just found out that the CitiDisk version B is identical to the Pyro API-820. The Pyro is slightly cheaper.
Am I the only one writing to this forum? I feel lonely!

Hi Neil,

Don’t feel lonely. I’ve, just gotten back from traveling, and have a job right off the bat.

I finally got the power book I was talking about at the start of this thread, so I am about to try out my proposed Frankenstore as soon as I get some breathing room. I’ve also ordered the quickstream, because I am sceptical about my own proposal. But MCE is having trouble delivering, I was hoping to have it by now.

I’m confused about something – you say the CitiDisk is identical to the Pyro? ADS makes the Pyro and MCE makes the Quickstrem, who makes the CitiDisk.? There are some threads that suggest that MCE makes the CitiDisk as well, but I think that it is unlikely that they would come out with two products that are so similar at this early stage of the game, especially if they are having trouble delivering even one product.

Your right there hasn’t been much chatter lately, maybe everyone is on holidays.

Cheers

Welcome home Daniel!
The CitiDisk is made by Shining Technology. I suspect that there are only one or two companies making all these products (like Focus Enhancements make the JVC FireStore). It was DVStuff that told me about the Pyro/CitiDisk re-badge.
This page may be of interest to all the Franks out there:

http://www.ipodlounge.com/articles_m...?id=69_0_8_0_M

I should be editing right now, but the mini monster creation bug has got me going!

Thanks Neil,

For the link- It doesn’t surprise me that the i-pod is not suitable for DV capture – The article didn’t say how they were capturing to the i-pod did it?

I plan to use a standard pocket Firewire drive for any overflow from the internal HDD of the powerbook.

I’ve started to put things together – last night I cannibalized an old USB mouse to serve as a remote trigger for starting and stopping capture. That works fine. And capturing from the XL1 has been stable so far. LCD monitor/ computer screen works as well, after I switched the video system on the PB from NTSC to PAL. That took me a few minutes. Unfortunately due to the extreme delay between the monitor /computer screen and what is being shot, I won’t be able to use the computer screen monitor to shoot from. I’ll add a switch to that so that I can toggle between camera monitor and screen monitor, just to be able to check that everything is running, while shooting.

I just need the time now to put the carrying system together, so that everything is in it’s right place – for me, that is the biggest factor which will decide whether this rig is really usable in the field or not.

I’ll post more as soon as I get things more together.

I've often wondered about an iPod solution. I can see no reason why an iPod could not be used. True, it only spins at 4200 RPM but that is true of most of the Apple laptop drives as well. Plus, there is a 60g version on the way.

So, the issue is one of interface. It seems that if the SDK (?) is available then some savvy programmer ought to be able to build a small front end that would allow you to use an iPod. After all Belkin makes both a voice recorder front end and a front end for downloading photos off of a camera or memory stick (albeit slowly).

Apple apparently did hire a video specialist in their iPod division (or at least advertised for one).

Now, consider another new wrinkle. A WIRELESS firewire standard has been approved. So, abandon the cables and just put a wireless transmitter on your camera.

Hi Jeff,

Can you pls update us with the web info of this wireless firewire transfer stuff...how far is the range gonn work or soething more than this...

!!!

The articles I've seen have mostly talked about the standard in terms of speed (FW400) not in distance. The one article said that the bandwidth will be first come forst served.

Here is an article that talks about using the standard in a product. The distance given is >10m.
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19990827S0032

There will likely be mush more about this as more companies rush to market.

I cannot understand why D2D drives are so expensive when it is possible to buy an Archos 500512 Video AV120 with Digital Video Recorder 100 Module that captures MPEG4 video for $259 . I would have thought that there is far more technology in the Archos than even the most complex D2D (nNovia or FS3 for example). If the demand is not big enough then the makers could only blame their pitiful marketing.
I think Shining Technology are having teething problems with their CitiDisk Pro and Beetle Analogue to Digital Converter because they have still not arrived in the UK.
How did you convert your USB mouse Daniel?

Hi Neil,

I agree with you about the price of these devices, especially since the ones I have tried out - the MCE Quickstream and Shining's CitiDisk - don't work like they should. They are in fact made cheaply, at least they look and feel that way. So there goes the craftsmanship reasoning for a high price. The FS3 is the only device, from the three that I have had my hands on, that could have the excuse of being expensive because of how it is built. But it is also significantly more expensive - so I don't know. I wish that the Citidisk and the Quickstream were cheaper, I would buy two if they were! that is if they also worked like the manufacturers have led us to believe they should.

Are you sure that there are no distributors for the CitiDisk in the UK? I found several here in Germany. Check Shining's web site, if you haven't already.

To answer your last question; I disassembled a Logitech two button wheel mouse and soldered a two pole wire to where the mouse click switch is for one of the mouse buttons. The other end of the wire has a small simple button switch which I hot glued to the handel of my XL1. Pushing the button jump circuits the mouse button making a click. I assigned a letter to the mouse click on that button with the Logitech mouse software and in turn gave that letter as short cut for BTV to trigger capturing.

Reading back it sound more complicated than it is. I didn't even damage the mouse with this modification.

I have to get around to putting some pictures on-line. Your interest will help motivate me to do that.

Thanks for asking

Bruce Yale says that the Quickstream, CitiDisk and Pyro DV Drive all use the same PCB (made by Shining), so it is deeply depressing that they all would have the same faults. I too want to use a D2D with an XL1, also an old Sony DXC3000 standalone (using an analogue to digital converter), so my choices are reduced to nNovia or FireStore FS3, both of which I cannot afford.
This review may be of some interest:
http://www.dvstuff.co.uk/pdf/dvdrive.pdf

Thanks Neil, for the review link. It sounded like who ever was doing the review, had had a CitiDisk sent to them from the manufacturer. It would be nice if Shining and MCE would retail the same product they send to reviewers.

Because you are posting here, and not under one of the headings that have more to do with the CitiDisk or other D2D topics, I assume you are contemplating a Frankenstore type solution.

I haven't been keeping up on how my Frankenstore has been getting along. sorry about that.

So I'll just note a few problems I have already had with this set up in the field. The most obvious one is the size. I shot footage for a project using an improvised harness, with the laptop hanging on my chest. I had some major back pain after two hours of shooting(It was almost like having a Betacam on my shoulder). There is also an issue with noise; the powerbook's fan went on after about ten minutes of capturing. It wasn't a major problem for me in that situation, but if it comes to close quarters shooting and quite situations that could be a problem. The third problem, which I will eventually solve, is the cable issue. I have to find a way to disconnect the three cables leading to the camera from the laptop with one plug. Without this, I found myself walking around with the camera in my hand all the time. Not good especially when I wanted to quickly adjust lights. Other than that, though, the system worked like I expected it to.

.

Your idea of carrying a laptop around to record is interesting. Some of the laptops these days are extremely small. I wonder if getting a laptop and the "dvrack" programme would be a viable option. Certainly the cost may be similar and you have a computer you can edit in the field.
You would need a good way of carrying the laptop around and also getting a cable that can securely stay fixed upon the camera and the computer would be a challenge too. Maybe some sort of vest at the front of the chest that allows you to open the laptop to see what you are recording could be useful.
I also wonder what would happen when you disconnect the cable from the camera and reconnect it again. If the dvrack programme goes into some sort of elaborate startup setting before you can start recording again it would be a pain.
Like I said on another thread, you're basically stuck with Nnovia or firestore. All the others have quality control issues at this stage.

Seems like one of the new pen/windows based PCs might have some application here. Or a home made sbc (single board computer) might be another. custom/homemade sbcs' were a popular way to store mp3 files until the ipod came along. Sounds like a ripe opportunity for an tech oriented enterprising individual.

You could even use linux and a free/open source capture/management app.


Google is your friend.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Joe! SBC's have got to be the answer. Please have a look at:
http://www.evalue-tech.com/evalueweb/products/specifications/ECm-5716.cfm
The only drawback with this SBC is the size. It is more like the Datavideo DV Bank than a CitiDisk! The PC/104 system is amazingly small, and there is no need for a fast cpu unless you intend to use the SBC for editing on location (which would be possible with the Evalue one. Please look at: http://bluechiptechnology.co.uk/product_group.php?group_id=3
This model would have to use the Ampro IE1394 Mini Module piggy backed on to it, but it would very small for a mini computer.
The Ampro site is:
http://www.ampro.com/html/mm_1394.html
The main problem is what we would need to be displayed on an LCD screen. If a touchscreen module was incorporated the whole OS desktop would be visible, and a matchstick could be used as a pointer. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Hi Neil,

This isn\'t exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread - but it sounds like you know what you are talking about. It would be a dream come true for every Frankensteiner or machine cannibal out there. Imagine it!, we could glue our capture devices together into any shape or form we like. I really like what you are suggesting.

I just have one question for you... How much do you think it would cost to put together a device, using the components you are suggesting , that would perform the function that we are looking for. The recording of the DV stream coming out of a DV camera\'s Firewire jack, onto a HDD, in a wrapper that would be directly useable by a NLE system without the NLE system having to render it first? And how long would you need to build it?

Cheers,