Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I agree. I've been working with FCP X for two days now and have cut some nice sequences and figured out how to do what I want, however, with that said... If Apple called this "iMovie Pro 1.0" I would not gripe.

But without the ability to do things like multi-track audio editing and exporting multitrack audio for doing a sound mix in an external application, without multicam support, without the ability to import Final Cut Pro 7.x projects; without the ability to import and export XML, etc. etc. etc. it is disingenuous to call this new application "Final Cut Pro X Version 10.0, this is what's hard to take, in spite of all the snazziness and sizzle of the new workflow is that there are things many of us need to do today, not sit around and wait for the feature or that feature to appear, so now I'm editing with a dead product (Final Cut Pro 7.x) with no support no future, it's like being on stormy seas in a leaky sailboat and being offered a canoe instead.

I'm worried there will be some OS X upgrade that will mess with Final Cut Pro 7.x and then where am I? I have two long form documentary projects I'm editing right now, and of course I will finish them in Final Cut Pro 7.x, while doing short projects in FCP X to learn it, but then what? How long will it take for Final Cut Pro X Version 10.0 to live up to it's name, rather than come off as iMovie Pro 1.0?

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Would you say it's an iMovie Pro 1.0 or a newer Final Cut Express?

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Chris,

I'll hold off on my own impressions for now until I can try it out, but a good friend of mine spent all of yesterday, most of the overnight hours and much of today working with FCP X, and he calls it "iMovie on steroids." Final Cut Express was just Final Cut Pro minus about 15 to 25% of key features, but the UI was pretty much identical.

I'll take the high road for now, and call it "the next generation of Final Cut Pro." (wink)

Heath

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

It took FCP 1.0 two years to get to 2.0, then 6-8 more months to get to the much better 3.0, with a lot of the features that made editors take notice. It took iMovie '08 three years to get to version '11, and now iMovie users are very happy with it. iMovie '08 was the big change, and it made a lot of users unhappy. (Maybe Apple saw that many more people were using iMovie than FCP... ?)

But I think it will take a shorter amount of time to see features added in. There was already an update, right? Plus, Apple recommends the unreleased Snow Leopard Mac OS X 10.6.8 with FCP X:

AppleInsider | Apple recommends yet unreleased OS X 10.6.8 for Final Cut Pro X users

heath

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

There's quite a few people on this thread who seem to understand the situation with new software and I think there are others who don't.

FCPX certainly wont meet a lot of people's needs today. Betting on horses, Apple has invested a lot in the development of AV Foundation and FCPX and Motion built on it as well as Thunderbolt to bring high speed storage and video I/O throughout the rest of the computer product lines. To me, that's a company making a MAJOR commitment to professional video. They can't do it on "your" timeline. This is a MASSIVE change almost as radical as OS9 to OSX. That's how different AV Foundation is. You're seeing a foal today that will be tomorrow's champ. If all you see is the foal and can't recognize the strong underpinnings you have other choices. I'm betting that it took Apple a major investment and there's a lot more coming. Their marketing of FCPX has been an unmitigated disaster but that doesn't mean the programming is.

It's a foal. Expect no more nor less. It's got a serious pedigree if you understand why Apple's designed it around metadata handling and how AV Foundation opens things up just as OSX opened things that were not possible in OS9.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Having spent 10 years working as a software architect, I'll assume that you are considering me to be one of the ones who does understand new software.

It would be one thing if Apple said, "Hey guys, we know that it doesn't meet your professional needs but it's a 1.0... we're going to leave the old FCP suite on the market and support it while we bring this up to speed and when it's there - BOOM, you'll love it just like the hobbyist will."

Have they said anything of the sort? Not from what I've seen. Everything I've seen from the company in the last five years has told me that they are moving towards being a consumer-focused company and not a professional-focused one. The bought and then shelved Shake, and now Color and Soundtrack as well - all without replacing them with a superior professional-level product. Every move they have made has been towards making products for consumers.

And I don't blame them... the economies of scale there are huge. There is more money to be made. Professional video people are - and we've seen it here today - a very picky bunch. And a very small market. It doesn't necessarily make sense for them to support us. Of course it also doesn't make sense for them to come out and say, "Hey professionals - sorry guys, but this isn't for you." They'll toe the line that they are making new professional products, even knowing clearly that a certain percentage of us will jump ship. They have to, that's good business.

So what - besides hope - gives you specific reason to believe that they are going to continue to develop FCP as a professional product that could be used in post houses? Why would FCP NOT be going the way of Shake? or Color? or Soundtrack? I'm not being rhetorical here - I'd really like to hear from you on that.

(And btw, I'm sure Larry makes fine training products, but him saying that they are telling him that they'll make it way better while he's trying to sell training to people who upgrade to it doesn't register in my books as evidence that they'll ever meet my needs).

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Barry, I think it was dumb that Apple pulled FCS2009. FCPX is not yet a replacement and they have to know this. Pulling FCS009 does not force FCPX purchases, if that's their intent. If someone is managing a small facility and needs to keep all systems functional and compatible, something that's beyond possible with current FCPX, they are now locked out since they can't add more FCS2009 seats.

As I note, I think FCPX has grew potential, it's not there yet by any stretch. A great foal doesn't help when you have a race today. Apple abandoned the bridge (FCS). Yup, their marketing is a disaster. They have an app that might be great by June 2012 (and I think it will) but a facility can't be stuck without a CURRENTLY functional Suite to purchase to tide them over. Apple kept Shake available for a reduced price for a very long time after it was EOLd and they should have done the same with FCS.

I really love where FCPX is going but they've dumped the bridge for many to take that road. That's the problem. I don't blame FCPX (or the very creative program team). I think Apple did not think about how a professional can get from point A to point B over the next 6 to 12 months.

FCPX will be great . . . probably no earlier than Dec or sometime next year . . . at the EARLIEST. A great concept car. A great prototype, Not yet roadworthy and people need to know what car to get today in the meantime.

I think Apple has made a serious investment in the technology, more so than the other products you've listed. I just think releasing a very good work in progress does replace an established tool set . . . until it gets to the point it feature competitive.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I agree with all of that EXCEPT your confidence that they are even moving in that direction. I was serious in wanting to know what you're basing it on, because I'd love to agree with you. I just haven't seen any evidence that makes me think they are.

Fcp x - doa
 

FCP X is DOA.

I need to be able import and export from tape, discs and cards. (Sorry the broadcast world is not tapeless and won't be for a long time).
I need TC in and out.
I need RS422.
I need composite, component and SDI in and out.
I need to be able to use third party video cards and external broadcast monitors.
I need adjustable TC in the sequence.
...and lots of other things FCP X will NOT do.

FCP X is the upgrade from iMovie not FCP3.

I can't believe I'm saying this but Apple laid a big ole stinky poop with FCP X!

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

And again, Shake makes my point precisely. It was a pro product that was a strong competitor in its field, and the did some tiny incremental upgrades and then they just put it to bed without ever replacing it with a comparable pro (or no pro) product. That's exactly that I think has happened to FCP. And like Shake, I never expect it to come back.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Actually Thunderbolt. The high speed storage and video I/O is really only of use to professionals. Apple generally uses software to sell hardware.

There's no way they expend years of development (and significant resources that involves) on AV Foundation (FCPX and Motion are the surface for some serious under the hood work) without wanting to address higher end pro applications. The engine is great but the chassis is a work in progress. I'm not sure how to make that kind on investment any more obvious.

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What is Apple doing with QuickTime? | The present and future of post production business and technology

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Apple spent millions of dollars and worked with a lot of engineers to make FCP X. Is it perfect? No, and I don't have an answer for Shake disappearing, other than, elements of it are in FCP. They got rid of LiveType, but you could find elements of it in Motion 4. They got rid of Soundtrack Pro and Color, but elements of it are found in FCP X.

I think FCP X is gonna improve, and I think it'll be around for a long time.

Now, consumer electronics and software vs. professional, well, no matter what, consumer will beat out pro, no matter what. People have been complaining that Apple's been ignoring pro since the iMac and iBook blew up, the iPod came out, the iPhone debuted, etc. Sony sells far more consumer-level HD cameras (or camera phones) than they do $5,000 HD cameras. And so on. Trust me, I know, I review more consumer items than I do pro items.

Still, I can't say much more about FCP X until I get my hands on it. My local Apple Store hasn't downloaded it yet, but to be honest, they may not for a while.

heath

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Barry, Shake was not an Apple developed product and they decided not to invest in further development.
FCP, in it's original form, was not an Apple product either, it was Macromedia. They decided there was no practical reason to build on that old code.
FCPX is an Apple creation from the ground up, as is Motion and they continue.
Color was not an Apple developed product and that seem to be gone too.

Apple is aggressively creating products developed in house now. That's very much related to deep ties with OS and AV Foundation. They've tossed out anything in which parts of the code base isn't theirs. Starting from scratch isn't easy (well maybe it is actually) but it means the ties into software and hardware are far more direct. It also means it may take some time to see all this grow. This has to be a major resource investment though.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Yah, I disagree. Thunderbolt is a universal technology - for hard drives, displays, everything. There is no part of that technology which is exclusively the realm of video professionals over video consumers. It is the next in a long chain of USBs and 1394s.

As for the core technology - investment in that in no way guarantees that they are going to service post house level professionals. Certainly they are going to use that core engine for a long time. But that might be in the form it is right now. The fact is that by reducing the feature set in FCPX the only people they can possibly disappoint are working video professionals. And looking at this board, it seems that only half of them are disappointed. Business-wise, I think it makes perfect sense for Apple to drop us from the list and use that shiny new engine to service the much larger and profitable prosumer market.

I see no evidence to the contrary, and they are making no statements to the contrary. They love it like it is. And they should, it will make them a lot of money. Just not from me.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Chris wrote: the reason it feels to me like " iMovie Pro 1.0" is that the orientation of FCP X is clearly towards the consumer. Final Cut Express had the identical interface as it's big brother, a great tool I've been using in teaching allowing students to move up to Final Cut Pro if they needed to. And I truly understand the value of a new generation program based on new technology like AV Foundation, Grand Central Dispatch, projects built around a database, improved media management, strong metadata foundation, etc. But when you do things like completely change the interface semantics and the ability to bring legacy projects into the new application, it's a cause for concern. Adobe has been a model of gradual under interace evolution, taking advantage of new technology and adding valuable new features with each version (I've been using Photoshop since version 1.0), and not leaving their professional users out in the cold. But one can say that Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, After Effects, Premiere, Audition are solidly targeted towards a professional market. Adobe would shoot themselves in the foot if they made a radical departure with any of their professional tools. But Apple can afford to make this change, for the tiny professional segment will not make a difference on way or the other on the profitability of the company, in the long term, video has become democratized and Apple is making a video editing application for "the rest of us." On the one hand in my role as an educator who coordinates a program training almost 400 students each year on video editing fundamentals, I applaud what Apple has done with Final Cut Pro X, but as a documentary filmmaker, I feel like I've had the rug pulled out from under me. I'm sure the pro features will come, but in this transition stage, I'm not given a lot to quel my anxiety.

Re: Fcp x - doa
 

If this was a whole new field for Apple, I could understand these omissions, but FCP is a mature, decade old program that's incredibly well established in the video community. Yes, this is new code, but the specs were well defined. Telling people "it'll get better" really isn't going to sit well, and little if any of this can be addressed by a quick X.0.1 update.

Looks like Avid was a little premature with their FCP-crossgrade promotion. They should have waited until FCP X was released, but they were probably worried that it was going to crush them.

That said, I think that for emerging and web-based media outlets, FCP X will be a dream come true. Fast, easy to use (a much shallower learning curve that FCP or FCE), and output to the formats they need. It truly is iMovie Pro, and I mean that as a compliment.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Seems like the reviews on the App store tell a very interesting story (CNN Money):

The Final Cut Pro X debacle - Apple 2.0 - Fortune Tech

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I have been using FCP X quite a bit over yesterday as well as today and I have mixed feelings. I did an edit start to finish. It turned out well. So is it usable? Absolutely! Are there some really important things missing? Sure. I will continue to use FCP X to learn it more thoroughly and I will eagerly await updates to add more features.

It almost feels as if this is a somewhat bipolar release. Its like FCP X can decide what it wants to be. They add support for more formats, release Motion 5 (a pro software with pro features) and Compressor 4 (also a pro app), and the app has some really nice options and features that are great. Then in other areas they took out things that we really need. In this way this release is a bit puzzling.

I am not editing for broadcast so for my needs this is a great piece of software that will only get better. At this point the biggest bummer for me is the lack of a widescreen matte generator. No more 235 edits unless I do them in FCP 7.

Re: Fcp x - doa
 

Goes to show that in the wake of all the hype, reality is now setting in. This is becoming a fascinating case study in expectations, and the meaning of the "Final Cut Pro" brand. It's a risky strategy to kill off an old product, replace it with a completely different one, and call the new version "awesome" as if it was the second coming. As "iMovie Pro 1.0" FCP X is brilliant. As the next version in the Final Cut Pro line? It's ludicrous. It's going to take the hyperspace edition of the reality distortion field to fix this situation...

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I have a 2008 8-core 3.2GHz MacPro 3,1 with a brand new 5870 card installed. FCP X seems to run fine with that combo. No rejection whatsoever by any system checks.

Response is quick and everything looks great. I have had a few crashes and background analysis hangs, but I just attribute those to the newness of the software. Not sure, of course. And I haven't tried the 5770.

One note with this setup is that there are occasional, not too intrusive display hiccups. But these occured before FCP X and are system wide. I see them in the Finder when nothing else is running,

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

As it stands right now, I think Apple has given us a very clean way to slowly transition to this new FCP. I'm happily running FCP 7 and FCP X on the same machine. One foot in the old world, and one foot in the new. I have the opportunity to learn a new workflow, while still being able to depend on old ones. When I take a big, long term perspective, that's a pretty good place to be in.

As for new features we"ll just have to wait and see.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I like your attitude David.
There's no question that X isn't ready for edit houses and there's no question as a communications consultant that I wouldn't have advised Apple to take a very different approach to their release priorities - or communicated their intent much more clearly to their base.
I love Apple products (for the most part, running literally dozens of systems I've had more than a few WTF moments) but I think their secrecy and often cultish approach does their true vision a disservice.

Anyway you and I probably pretty much agree on it all and I appreciate your candor.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Good attitude, and probably the approach I'll take when I dip my toes in the FCP X water.

heath

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I guess it's early days with FCP X and my question is... Where will this leave origination's that cut on FCP7, will we have updates on this system or is the end of the line for FCP7?

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I know that most of you, (if not all of you that are participating in this thread), seem to be professionals in the video industry. I have enjoyed reading this long discussion and like many of you, I have also been eagerly anticipating FCPX, the only difference is that I came to offer a different and rather frightening perspective.
I just graduated and I am heading off to school next year and will be studying film. Although I have worked with FCP7 extensively for the past year or so, I don't own it myself because I have been using a friend's old laptop to do my editing. He has it on both of his mac's but I won't be able to take it with me to school. My school offered the FCP7 student edition for 250$ and the school receives all of Apple's latest hardware and software for their editing bays because of some kind of sponsorship.
Many of you have said that you will be continuing to work in FCP7 until Apple's new baby is mature enough to handle the needs of a professional market, especially one geared to handle broadcast media. This seems to be the most feasible course of action but like someone said, this leaves many new editors like myself in the dark. I have no option but to purchase FCPX and hope for the best if I come across any hiccups or problems in my workflow.
I could overcome this by starting early with a option like Adobe's line or Avid, but it seems somewhat counterproductive considering my schools editing bays, my professor's methods of teaching, and being a student, I don't have the money to buy either of these suites.
I really only have one option and I am hoping that we see some critical updates in the future that will shed some light on this "debacle", and alleviate the concerns for many of us.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

That's it, unfortunately. No more support or updates for FCP 7, FCE 4 or FC Server.

heath

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Welcome aboard! (off topic for a second: I have family in Amarillo! Great to have you here!)

The sky's the limit for you, in one sense -- you can pick up a new NLE and just go for it, but the problem is your film school. When I helped put together the Palm Beach Film School years ago, we started with FCP 4 and Avid Xpress, and we realized quickly that FCP was easier to master and teach, so we dropped Avid.

I'm curious what my old film school will now do? Teach FCP X, keep teaching FCP 7, or move to something else? My guess would be they stick with FCP 7 for the time being, and make a move in 6 months.

heath

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

WOW!!!!

I hope FCP X will prove to be a great NLE with future updates.

Cheers

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

There IS a widescreen Matte generator. Its in the effects window. Select widescreen, and you can change the mate size to what you need, 2:35:1 included.

Also, I have FCP X installed in both a Macbook Pro 3.06 GHZ Duo with nvidia 9600GT, and in a Macpro early 2008 with a Quadro 4000 recently purchased. Works in both, but is struggling in the Macbook pro with an external monitor.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

sergio

I'm looking to get a 13 " macbookpro dual core i5 machine (the entry level new one just released) in a couple of weeks. Do you think this machine will be up to running FCPX with a monitor?

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Dom,

I think getting a 15" would be a safer bet, specially due to the better graphics card. The processor of the 13" is good enough, however, I'm not sure about the graphics card, and FCPX is a heavy user of the graphics card...

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Hayden, Adobe has excellent pricing on education software, check them out. Also, Premiere is very similar to FCP in terms of operation, including a possibility to change your keyboard shortcuts to FCP ones. There are some differences, of course, but not that many, and not that important in my opinion.

My take on FCP X is that it looks like their software engineers said "we need more time", and the management said "we need a new version now! What can we have? We'll deal with the rest later."
I have not downloaded the app, so I can't comment, but that was my impression from what you guys wrote.

However, it might be that they really for some reason decided to make some not so wise decisions in development. Perhaps they wanted to ride on the FCP brand, but this release and lack of support for FCP7 seems to actually be a huge blow for the FCP brand in the professional market.

Also, so far the lesson seems to be: don't get bought by Apple if you want your product to go on. :)

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

"X" is a new program charting untested waters. It is not "7" in anyway except that it's an editing program with Apple integration. It is missing support for many pro features that FCP also didn't have at the beginning many years ago. As with FCP, third party or updated Apple programming will fill the gaps as time moves on.

I will not use this program for major client work until I feel I have a reasonable understanding of the program, transitions and titling especially. I already have reconstructed several small projects as tests and I have to say that the program is very impressive and the help menu is informative when I get confused. Much of my work is either disc bound, web bound or files bound for transfer at outside dub facilities so I feel that FCPX is mature enough for much of my work. The client who needs tape delivery and I have the decks, well FCP7 is still there and working well.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

One point that I've seen referenced several times is the inability to capture footage from tape. According to the review on Ken Stone's website, this is FALSE. It is simply found under the "import" option now, where you will select "import from camera".

Alot of great info here, though. I think I'll stay on the fence for now and continue using FCP 6 until I see how this all plays out!

Brian

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I was working in the centre of Cambridge this morning so after I'd finished I nipped into the Apple store in the hope of trying out FCPX for a little while (basically to get a bit of a feel as what all the fuss is about for myself...).

Unfortunately, they have not got FCPX loaded on any of the demo MBPs etc. in store just yet. Not sure if this is just a local delay with Apple here in Cambridge or mostly UK wide - but I bet you can try it at Apple's main London store.

Looks like I'll be keeping hold of my money a little longer!

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Brian,

Actually it is true and false. Youi can capture DV or HDV tape formats via firewire. However, you cannot currently capture/or/digital cut via HD-SDI through Matrox or Aja or even legacy componenet analog.

See. most post facilities/TV stations etc., big and small, commercial and corporate, even one man bands,,invested a lot of money in capture cards,,,and FCP X clearly didn't address the fact that a lot of workflows are based on SDI capture.

A facility with multiple edit suites are usually connected with a central control room that has tape machines, digital routers, etc. Again, a massive investment in dollars. FCP X, at this stage would not fit into a facility style workflow at all,, as I see it.

Cheers
Edit: I left out DVCPro HD and DVCAM tape formats via firewire.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

I am getting angry at apple for this release.

At our company, we have invested a lot of money into the finalcut workflow.

If I look at my shopping list of urgently needed features (ability to save Versions - Save As..., OMF, Mutliclip, Monitoring, SDI and on and on) I am very skeptic if they will be able to implement all this within a reasonable timeframe to earn the pro back...

Without all the necessary Pro elements, this cannot even be called iMovie Pro.

Who the hell gave the developers input for what is needed and what not?
CNN iReport? YouTube? really???? wtf...

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Sergio

Already checked the graphics card requirements and the 13 has one that is recommended, so i don't see that as a problem.
Obviously the 15 would be better, but it costs a lot more, and i like the smaller size. I also have a 23" Apple Cinema Display for a good view. I'd rather spend the saved cash on a 256 SSD card and a thunderbolt drive when they arrive.
If i decide i need a more powerful set up down the line, i'll get an imac as they are superb machines right now. My Mac Pro is going on Ebay this week.

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

Oliver

You still have FCP7 i take it?

Why not just use that till X is ready for your work?

I agree it's a little odd for Apple to put out an APP that is not ready yet, but nobody is forcing you to use it. I shall wait until it's up and running. There's no hurry. Or is FCP7 not good enough for you anymore?

Re: FCP X Now available to buy and download from App Store
 

My big beef is how they are trying to change the terminology of editing. It is really confusing if you have been editing a long time. There is a venaculer of editing terms that has existed for many decades.

Case in point a sequence is now called a project? (Which defaults to surround sound matrix vs. stereo or single channels)
A timeline is a storyline? Okay.
A bin is called a smart collection/ (Vs. a stupid collection?)
A project is an Event? (Like my cousin's daughter graduation?)
Effect based clips in timeline ,,,umm storyline are called "Video Animations"??

Mark in and Mark outs are called selections?

A simple DVE/transform move/zoom on a still is called "Ken Burns". So, now my post supervisor/producers are going to say,, you need to add a Ken Burns to that timeline...I mean storyline..sequence...I mean project...in yesterdays event edit session??

Those stills need to be imported into a smart collection. Genius.

The more I play with this..the more I realize that I cannot even think like a seasoned editor...I have to think like my Uncle Jim editing his grandsons birthday party.

Also, we're comparing FCP X to Avid AMA. And so far it looks like I cannot edit XDCAM EX, Red, MXF, and a host of other codecs natively. If it see the qiucktime file it transcodes it to ProRes,,,which is fine but even with background rendering is nowhere near as fast as Premiere or Avid AMA native editing/ingest. Those programs direct link to the file and yo see it instantly in a bin. Which BTW, the term "bin" actually refers to "film bins" which are like laundry bins with hangers for your "film clips". I just cannot call a "bin" a "smart collections". I just cannot do it. it is my hang up I know,,but...I just can't.


I've seen enough...for professionals...Apple threw the baby out with the bath water. This is for iMovie for Video Prosumers.