And Apple gives us an HD10 ready FireWire utility! at DVinfo.net

Steve Mullen · June 13th, 2003, 07:32 PM

Included in the new SDK:

FireWireMPEG ? Source code to build the FireWireMPEG.framework which supports IEC 61883-4 transmission and reception of MPEG2-TS packets over firewire.

DVHSCap ? Sample application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework to import and export streams from DVHS devices.

VirtualDVHS ? An example application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework, and the new IOFireWireAVC APIs to allow the Mac to emulate a DVHS device.

According to JVC, the protocol for D-VHS is the same as the JVC camcorders. So this is how the Apple description should read:

FireWireMPEG ? Source code to build the FireWireMPEG.framework which supports IEC 61883-4 transmission and reception of MPEG2-TS packets over firewire.

DVHSCap ? Sample application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework to import and export streams from D-VHS VTRs and JVC camcorders. <<< THIS IS WHAT WE WANT.

VirtualDVHS/Virtual Camcorder ? An example application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework, and the new IOFireWireAVC APIs to allow the Mac to emulate a DVHS device or JVC camcorders.

Steve Mullen · June 13th, 2003, 07:36 PM

About DVHSCap

DVHSCap is an sample application that allows the Mac to import and export MPEG2 transport streams from a DVHS compatible AV/C tape device.

It is provided as an example of using the FireWireMPEG.framework for isochronous transmission and reception of MPEG-2 transport stream packets over FireWire conforming to the IEC61883-4 specification.

This appication has been tested with the following ATSC devices:

Mitsubishi HD-2000U DVHS VCR

JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS VCR

JVC GR-HD1 720p Camcorder

Sony MicroMV Camcorders

Steve Mullen · June 13th, 2003, 07:45 PM

And, lo and behold there is a utility ready to use. Now I really want the camcorder!

Yang Wen · June 13th, 2003, 10:35 PM

Not so fast, looks like nothing is as easy as promised.. read this previous post on the JVC DVHS deck

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=9695

Steve Mullen · June 13th, 2003, 11:52 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : Not so fast, looks like nothing is as easy as promised.. read this previous post on the JVC DVHS deck. -->>>

I'd say not so fast to you. Did you really read this old thread?

Reread his ranting. He was trying to record VHS tape via FireWire. I'm not sure he even knew he had bought an HD VTR for $600.

Wonder if he really knew what D-VHS is.

Michael Pappas · June 14th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Steve, are you saying that FCP will support GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U mpeg stream for editing? If so, when will this be? Or did I not get this right.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Steve Mullen · June 14th, 2003, 02:20 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Steve, are you saying that FCP will support GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U mpeg stream for editing? If so, when will this be? Or did I not get this right. -->>>

Paul and I have been editing samples in FCP for almost a month.

The new Apple MPEG2-TS:FireWire utility (download for free) controls and captures from the camcorder.

Then you follow a number of step (posted here by Paul and I) to get clips into FCP. Now edit. (You must have installed Apple's $20 MPEG-2 decoder!)

Export as MPEG-2 TS and use the Apple utility to write back to the camcorder or a D-VHS deck.

Two open issues:

1) The Hueris encoder is way too expensive. And the shareware encoders won't handle 1280x720 at 20Mbps. (Something that is easily solved by someone who knows how to complile C++. ANYONE? PLEASE! I can point you to the updated, but not yet compiled sources that handle HD.)

2. I have not yet documented my lastest procedure because it looks like FCP 4 will make things simpler. (My system lets you edit with smooth playback and very little extra storage.) Contact me via email (d-v-c@mindspring.com) if you want to try it all out as I'm still waiting for a HD10 from JVC.

Yang Wen · June 14th, 2003, 08:15 AM

Not so fast, the DVHS deck is firewire INPUt only so unless you're only planning using that as a final mastering format, it won't do wha u want it to do.(IN/OUT) And reread the old thread, he wanted to use the deck as "transcoder" to digitze VHS tapes, and in the process discovering the firewire issues.

Bob England · June 14th, 2003, 12:55 PM

And another not so fast for you. The JVC WILL output over firewire, it just won't output DV format; only MPEG2 transport streams. I have two of these units so I know this for a fact.
That thread you gave the link for was written by someone who doesn't fully understand the unit. Anyone who expects to play a VHS tape in the HM-DH30000U and have it transcoded and output over firewire hasn't done their homework. Nowhere does JVC claim the deck will do this. The HM-DH30000U does have an SD MPEG encoder, so you can input DV format via firewire and it will be transcoded to MPEG2 and recorded in DVHS. You can also input via the analog inputs and record in DVHS (MPEG2 SD only, not HD) as well as regular VHS or SVHS, but the JVC will not output DV format and nowhere is this being claimed for it.
Many people are under the mistaken impression that firewire means DV and that simply is not true. Never has been.

Steve Mullen · June 14th, 2003, 06:13 PM

<<<-- Anyone who expects to play a VHS tape in the HM-DH30000U and have it transcoded and output over firewire hasn't done their homework. -->>>

I think our "not so fast" poster still doesn't know what D-VHS is. :)

It's likely they think it is a VHS deck with digital I/O via FireWire. They see the word FireWire and VHS and bingo they think they know something.

It's also interesting to me that every time good news about the JVC products come out these lurkers start posting negative comments. I remember the same thing happened when the DVX100 arrived. Suddenly Sony and XL1 owners started blasting it.

We should expect that here for two reasons:

1) 90% still have no knowedge of MPEG-2 or HD.

2) The release of a successful HD MPEG-2 product means Sony and Panasonic will soon also have products, which means DV owners will find themselves in the position of Beta SP owners when the VX1000 arrived. I don't expect them to be happy campers -- especially in tough economic times.

Moreover, it's not just the camcorder. The FireWire carrying HD makes it clear that soon those $10,000 HD-SDI cards will no longer be needed. In a few weeks I'll be editing 1280x720 HD on an iMac that cost me $1800. I'll also be reviewing an HD projector that has a street price of $1500. So for under $8000 I'll have a full HD setup!

Paul Mogg · June 14th, 2003, 07:14 PM

You make a good point Steve, this whole process is quite revolutionary IMHO.
In about 2 weeks (I hope!) I will have a complete 720p HD filming/editing sytem for about $5,000 + my Mac of course.
I've spent some of today comparing all of the footage posted from this JVC HD1 camera online that I've collected, with MPEG2 TS footage filmed by the CineAlta and Varicam cameras that I've also gathered.(on an Apple HD Cinema display) .... and while yes, there is obviously a quality difference, it is certainly not a $115,00+ difference, and I really think the average filmgoer will not be able to tell the difference once the techniques for getting around the inadequacies of this camera (which are certainly bound to be there) are mastered by low-budget film makers. Many people may not believe this right now, but I think that will change when they see the results.
By the way, I have no affiliation with JVC, or Steve in saying this. I am just an independent, budding film-maker who is very interested in seeing a higher quality level of filming become available to everyone.
By the way, I am told that the Womble MPEG editor on the PC ($120) will encode HD resolution MPEG2 TS, if anyone can confirm this I'd be grateful, as it seems to be the missing link.

All the best

Steve Mullen · June 14th, 2003, 07:43 PM

<<<-- .... and while yes, there is obviously a quality difference, it is certainly not a $115,00+ difference, and I really think the average filmgoer will not be able to tell the difference once the techniques for getting around the inadequacies of this camera (which are certainly bound to be there).

By the way, I have no affiliation with JVC, or Steve in saying this. -->>>

I too have no relationship with JVC. I'll be reviewing the product for VS.

You point up the other revolutionary aspect -- price/performance ratio. No one expects there not to be quality issues. (I'm very concerned by 30fps!) But, compared to the alternatives. :)

Also, I'm always amazed how few videomakers watch HDTV. They think DV looks great.

Chris Hurd · June 14th, 2003, 07:52 PM

<< I'm always amazed how few videomakers watch HDTV. They think DV looks great. >>

The one unfailing rule of the universe: everything is relative. Compared to the old analog Hi-8 days, DV *is* great!

Heath McKnight · June 14th, 2003, 10:42 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : And, lo and behold there is a utility ready to use. Now I really want my camcorder! -->>>

Where can we find this at Apple's site, and is it just one thing (for $20) or two things?

heath

Steve Mullen · June 15th, 2003, 02:20 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : And, lo and behold there is a utility ready to use. Now I really want my camcorder! -->>>

Where can we find this at Apple's site, and is it just one thing (for $20) or two things?

heath -->>>

You buy the mpeg2 decoder from the store.

the firewire utility, DVHSCap, is at:

http://developer.apple.com/firewire/index.html

Now download and install tthe:

FireWire SDK 16 for Mac OS X (Download)

and find open the Utilities folder.

June 13th, 2003, 07:32 PM	#1
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	And Apple gives us an HD10 ready FireWire utility! Included in the new SDK: FireWireMPEG ? Source code to build the FireWireMPEG.framework which supports IEC 61883-4 transmission and reception of MPEG2-TS packets over firewire. DVHSCap ? Sample application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework to import and export streams from DVHS devices. VirtualDVHS ? An example application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework, and the new IOFireWireAVC APIs to allow the Mac to emulate a DVHS device. According to JVC, the protocol for D-VHS is the same as the JVC camcorders. So this is how the Apple description should read: FireWireMPEG ? Source code to build the FireWireMPEG.framework which supports IEC 61883-4 transmission and reception of MPEG2-TS packets over firewire. DVHSCap ? Sample application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework to import and export streams from D-VHS VTRs and JVC camcorders. <<< THIS IS WHAT WE WANT. VirtualDVHS/Virtual Camcorder ? An example application that uses the FireWireMPEG.framework, and the new IOFireWireAVC APIs to allow the Mac to emulate a DVHS device or JVC camcorders. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 13th, 2003, 07:36 PM	#2
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	About DVHSCap DVHSCap is an sample application that allows the Mac to import and export MPEG2 transport streams from a DVHS compatible AV/C tape device. It is provided as an example of using the FireWireMPEG.framework for isochronous transmission and reception of MPEG-2 transport stream packets over FireWire conforming to the IEC61883-4 specification. This appication has been tested with the following ATSC devices: Mitsubishi HD-2000U DVHS VCR JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS VCR JVC GR-HD1 720p Camcorder Sony MicroMV Camcorders __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 13th, 2003, 07:45 PM	#3
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	And, lo and behold there is a utility ready to use. Now I really want the camcorder! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 13th, 2003, 11:52 PM	#5
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : Not so fast, looks like nothing is as easy as promised.. read this previous post on the JVC DVHS deck. -->>> I'd say not so fast to you. Did you really read this old thread? Reread his ranting. He was trying to record VHS tape via FireWire. I'm not sure he even knew he had bought an HD VTR for $600. Wonder if he really knew what D-VHS is. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 14th, 2003, 02:20 AM	#7
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Steve, are you saying that FCP will support GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U mpeg stream for editing? If so, when will this be? Or did I not get this right. -->>> Paul and I have been editing samples in FCP for almost a month. The new Apple MPEG2-TS:FireWire utility (download for free) controls and captures from the camcorder. Then you follow a number of step (posted here by Paul and I) to get clips into FCP. Now edit. (You must have installed Apple's $20 MPEG-2 decoder!) Export as MPEG-2 TS and use the Apple utility to write back to the camcorder or a D-VHS deck. Two open issues: 1) The Hueris encoder is way too expensive. And the shareware encoders won't handle 1280x720 at 20Mbps. (Something that is easily solved by someone who knows how to complile C++. ANYONE? PLEASE! I can point you to the updated, but not yet compiled sources that handle HD.) 2. I have not yet documented my lastest procedure because it looks like FCP 4 will make things simpler. (My system lets you edit with smooth playback and very little extra storage.) Contact me via email (d-v-c@mindspring.com) if you want to try it all out as I'm still waiting for a HD10 from JVC. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 13th, 2003, 10:35 PM	#4
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Not so fast, looks like nothing is as easy as promised.. read this previous post on the JVC DVHS deck http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=9695

June 14th, 2003, 01:17 AM	#6
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Steve, are you saying that FCP will support GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U mpeg stream for editing? If so, when will this be? Or did I not get this right. Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com

June 14th, 2003, 08:15 AM	#8
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Not so fast, the DVHS deck is firewire INPUt only so unless you're only planning using that as a final mastering format, it won't do wha u want it to do.(IN/OUT) And reread the old thread, he wanted to use the deck as "transcoder" to digitze VHS tapes, and in the process discovering the firewire issues.

June 14th, 2003, 12:55 PM	#9
Bob England Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 59	And another not so fast for you. The JVC WILL output over firewire, it just won't output DV format; only MPEG2 transport streams. I have two of these units so I know this for a fact. That thread you gave the link for was written by someone who doesn't fully understand the unit. Anyone who expects to play a VHS tape in the HM-DH30000U and have it transcoded and output over firewire hasn't done their homework. Nowhere does JVC claim the deck will do this. The HM-DH30000U does have an SD MPEG encoder, so you can input DV format via firewire and it will be transcoded to MPEG2 and recorded in DVHS. You can also input via the analog inputs and record in DVHS (MPEG2 SD only, not HD) as well as regular VHS or SVHS, but the JVC will not output DV format and nowhere is this being claimed for it. Many people are under the mistaken impression that firewire means DV and that simply is not true. Never has been.

June 14th, 2003, 06:13 PM	#10
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Anyone who expects to play a VHS tape in the HM-DH30000U and have it transcoded and output over firewire hasn't done their homework. -->>> I think our "not so fast" poster still doesn't know what D-VHS is. :) It's likely they think it is a VHS deck with digital I/O via FireWire. They see the word FireWire and VHS and bingo they think they know something. It's also interesting to me that every time good news about the JVC products come out these lurkers start posting negative comments. I remember the same thing happened when the DVX100 arrived. Suddenly Sony and XL1 owners started blasting it. We should expect that here for two reasons: 1) 90% still have no knowedge of MPEG-2 or HD. 2) The release of a successful HD MPEG-2 product means Sony and Panasonic will soon also have products, which means DV owners will find themselves in the position of Beta SP owners when the VX1000 arrived. I don't expect them to be happy campers -- especially in tough economic times. Moreover, it's not just the camcorder. The FireWire carrying HD makes it clear that soon those $10,000 HD-SDI cards will no longer be needed. In a few weeks I'll be editing 1280x720 HD on an iMac that cost me $1800. I'll also be reviewing an HD projector that has a street price of $1500. So for under $8000 I'll have a full HD setup! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 14th, 2003, 07:14 PM	#11
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	You make a good point Steve, this whole process is quite revolutionary IMHO. In about 2 weeks (I hope!) I will have a complete 720p HD filming/editing sytem for about $5,000 + my Mac of course. I've spent some of today comparing all of the footage posted from this JVC HD1 camera online that I've collected, with MPEG2 TS footage filmed by the CineAlta and Varicam cameras that I've also gathered.(on an Apple HD Cinema display) .... and while yes, there is obviously a quality difference, it is certainly not a $115,00+ difference, and I really think the average filmgoer will not be able to tell the difference once the techniques for getting around the inadequacies of this camera (which are certainly bound to be there) are mastered by low-budget film makers. Many people may not believe this right now, but I think that will change when they see the results. By the way, I have no affiliation with JVC, or Steve in saying this. I am just an independent, budding film-maker who is very interested in seeing a higher quality level of filming become available to everyone. By the way, I am told that the Womble MPEG editor on the PC ($120) will encode HD resolution MPEG2 TS, if anyone can confirm this I'd be grateful, as it seems to be the missing link. All the best __________________ Paul

June 14th, 2003, 07:43 PM	#12
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- .... and while yes, there is obviously a quality difference, it is certainly not a $115,00+ difference, and I really think the average filmgoer will not be able to tell the difference once the techniques for getting around the inadequacies of this camera (which are certainly bound to be there). By the way, I have no affiliation with JVC, or Steve in saying this. -->>> I too have no relationship with JVC. I'll be reviewing the product for VS. You point up the other revolutionary aspect -- price/performance ratio. No one expects there not to be quality issues. (I'm very concerned by 30fps!) But, compared to the alternatives. :) Also, I'm always amazed how few videomakers watch HDTV. They think DV looks great. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 14th, 2003, 07:52 PM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	<< I'm always amazed how few videomakers watch HDTV. They think DV looks great. >> The one unfailing rule of the universe: everything is relative. Compared to the old analog Hi-8 days, DV is great! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 14th, 2003, 10:42 PM	#14
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : And, lo and behold there is a utility ready to use. Now I really want my camcorder! -->>> Where can we find this at Apple's site, and is it just one thing (for $20) or two things? heath

June 15th, 2003, 02:20 AM	#15
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : And, lo and behold there is a utility ready to use. Now I really want my camcorder! -->>> Where can we find this at Apple's site, and is it just one thing (for $20) or two things? heath -->>> You buy the mpeg2 decoder from the store. the firewire utility, DVHSCap, is at: http://developer.apple.com/firewire/index.html Now download and install tthe: FireWire SDK 16 for Mac OS X (Download) and find open the Utilities folder. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c