FCP Edits Pixlet HD just like DV!!
 

Well I've got to say this is a day I didn't think would come so soon. FCP 4 edits Pixlet HD on the desktop, in full HD res, just like DV. What is more, if you set up your desktop as I have with a second VGA monitor set to 1280*720 or more, you have full HD res monittoring WHILE you edit, in real time, just as you would use an NTSC reference monitor with DV. This setup is just awsome! I have tried cuts and disolves and color correction, and all of them work without a hitch. You will still need Steve's plugin to re-encode to MPEG2, if that's what you want to do, to archive back to the camera or DVHS in MPEG2TS. Personally I think this codec is so good that I will keep all of my HD stuff in Pixlet, and just archive to DVHS as necessary. As a side note, I also hooking up an NTSC monitor via firewire and a DV deck, and FCP is updating the NTSC display as freeze frames when the timeline is not running, so you can get and idea of how your stuff will look on NTSC right there if you want. Another note, real-time effects are NOT available in FCP when editing Pixlet, but I really wasn't expecting them to be, I'm just amazed that for basically the cost of a new Mac, you can now edit HD real-time on the desktop without any additional hardware, and without having to go to a lower res proxy.

This sounds great. Will pixlet allow you to convert from other HD formats? So you can be editing Varicam HD footage? And I'm assuming that by realtime HD editing your meant realtime playback of a single stream only?

Paul, you are super-cool for posting!!!!

Could you please explain what you did to get footage into FCP. We'd all love to get a 1-2-3, so we can finally edit something!

I'd really appreciate it when you have a few minutes.

Thanks very much!

Chris

Oops, I just read your previous post. It looks like you already explained in detail.

I'm going to try it now. Thanks Paul!

Chris

Yes, as this is Quicktime, you can convert between any supported formats using Quicktime Pro or Compressor, and I believe Quicktime supports all the major HD formats, so I imagine you would be able to edit Varicam footage in this way. As I said in the other thread, I am not seeing any difference in quality between the orignal .m2t file from the camera and the Pixlet converted version. This editing pipeline works just great for me, the convertion from the .m2v file to the Pixlet file is a one step process using mpeg2decx, and I really don't mind going through that extra step to be able to edit HD quality in real time, it's a small price to pay. From what I'm seeing so far, with footage from the HD1OU, Pixlet is high enough quality to be an Online editing format. I'm sure that if you started off with uncompressed, or lightly compressed HD from a Varicam, you would probably want to use it as an offline format, but I don't have any uncompressed Varicam footage to be able to compare the quality difference between that and a Pixlet conversion.
By the way, Steve is right that Apple doesn't seem to have fixed the bug that would allow you to load the demuxed .m2v files directly into the Quicktime player or FCP, but you don't need to now, as mpeg2decx WILL load them and directly convert them to Pixlet at full res.
but to slightly correct another of Steve's points, a dual 2ghz G5 will NOT edit uncompressed HD without additional hardware, i.e. RAID arrays and HD SDI I/O cards. The Pixlet route just requires a fast enough Mac, which Apple states to be a 1ghz or faster G4.

Cheers

Paul,

If in fact Pixlet is good enough for online. The second biggest advantage I see besides being able to see full rez when editing is hard drive space saving. You can trash the m2t, m2v and keep your Pixlet QT as source.

Now what source file were people using when doing the proxy approach? DV in 16:9 for proxy I assume, but what was the source to go back to? Can't be m2v 'cause FCP doesn't recognize it.

I've FINALLY got some footage into FCP after having this camera for 2 months!

I have a G4 1ghz laptop with 1 gig of ram - it does take a while for footage to render.

Is there anywhere we can post large clips online to share? I know there are some on this forum...can I post some?

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : The second biggest advantage I see besides being able to see full rez when editing is hard drive space saving. You can trash the m2t, m2v and keep your Pixlet QT as source. -->>>

It is the revers. Pixlet is 4X larger than MPEG-2! You just tossed away compact MPEG-2 for a huge Pixlet file.

Working with a Proxy is an advange, not a disadvantage.

* You reduce the edit file size by 10!

* You can play your source on an iBook!

* You get realtime! Is anyone going to go back to rendering? Not me.

* You do not take the huge quality hit by decompressing MPEG-2 then recompressing in Pixlet and then at the end decompressing and recompressing to MPEG-2 (or HDCAM or DVCPRO HD).

Pixlert is cute, but solves only one problem and introduces many.

Pixlet, like WM9, is best for HD distribution on DVD media. That's what Apple designed it for.

Steve,

You make some great points, but I really think that the reason some of us are intested in Pixlet is that it will allow us to stay in HD throughout the editing process.

You point out that it doesn't have realtime effects and you say that you'll never go back to rendering, but at the same time HDVCinema forces us to go back to SD in order to have realtime. It is a trade off either way you go; you get realtime with SD or HD with no realtime effects. You may never go back to rendering, however, there are others who would rather never go back to SD.

Although I would say that HDVCinema is currently the best solution to get your material from camera to FCP to camera (actually, the only way to go from FCP to camera) unfortunately, SD just isn't very sexy.

Furthermore, it seems that Pixlet would offer users the ability to throw their footage into a program like Combustion or Commotion for full resolution compositing with 3D graphics and/or green screen material.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and if there is a solution for using progams like Combustion with HDVCinema I'd love to hear about it. But I think the real reason some in this forum are excited about Pixlet is that it is HD. After all, that is why I bought the camera. And there is something to be said for having the ability to edit in HD and use the files just like any other qt files. You can call it cute if you want to but I think it is a step in the right direction.

Brad

HDV for animation?
 

I'm interested in doing some 3d animation to be projected on a very large screen, and this all sounds very interesting. So tell me if I'm right here: I could use my 3d software with the new Quicktime Pixlet codec and render the animation at 1280x720 30p. Then I could edit in FCP just like DV with a 1.25 ghz G4? Could the same system support 1920x1080?

Do I need FCP4, or just the new Quicktime with pixlet? I'm still a little confused - if I render the 3d animation with the Pixlet codec will it play directly from the FCP timeline without additonal rendering (assuming no effects have been applied)? DV is ~200MB/minute - how much disk space for a minute of pixlet-compressed 1280x720? Other than Quicktime playback from a hard drive, how else could I output this footage? DVHS? Would that require re-compression, or would the DVHS deck handle that in hardware?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is an exciting new frontier! :-)

<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Hawkins : Steve,

"You make some great points, but I really think that the reason some of us are intested in Pixlet is that it will allow us to stay in HD throughout the editing process."


There's little advantage to staying in HD for editing. That's like saying you can't edit 35mm film on an Avid -- something obviously not the true. Moreover, much HD is edited "off-line" on SD.

Worse you take a huge quality hit going from MPEG-2 to pixlet and back to MPEG-2. So you lose both real-time and quality because "you want to stay in HD while editing." I'd rather have real-time and high-quality than "sexy."

With HDVcinema you get high-quality HD, not just 1280x720 video.


"Furthermore, it seems that Pixlet would offer users the ability to throw their footage into a program like Combustion or Commotion for full resolution compositing with 3D graphics and/or green screen material."

Sorry, but who in their right mind would uncompress 19Mbps MPEG-2 and recompress it to Pixelet for compositing work?!?


"Perhaps I'm wrong, and if there is a solution for using progams like Combustion with HDVCinema I'd love to hear about it."

HDVcinema now has an HDgateway process that let's you edit with Proxy and use 8-bit or 10-bit uncompressed video for use with the Kona HD card.


"But I think the real reason some in this forum are excited about Pixlet is that it is HD."

And so is MPEG-4 if set it to 1280x720.

Pixlet is for distribution for very good reasons. Ask Apple.

Steve,

You mentioned that the HDVcinema has a "HDgateway"? Is that something that exisiting users will get or is that already included?

Also, whatever upgrades you are planning for HDVcinema - do exisiting users get those free?

Thanks, Chris

I understand Steve's reasons for being a bit down on Pixlet, but having used it, I have to say that I don't agree with many of his points on this one. I think there is a huge advantage to staying in HD during your editing. Mainly that you are actually seeing your final output resolution and color space AS YOU WORK. We are all used to the way you work with DV, and this offers an identical work pattern where what you see is what you get. This is especially important for color correction, which you need for HD1OU footage. To correct a very important point, there is no "huge quality hit" in going from MPEG-2 to Pixlet. As far as I can see at this point, there is no visual difference between the original MPEG2 and the Pixlet version.Is Steve talking from experience in saying this?, if so I'd like to know in what areas he's seeing a quality hit during he conversion, as that's not what I'm seeing at all.
I know that there are no real-time effects
but those of us who have been editing DV for a while have only just recently experienced real-time effects, so I don't think it's any great shakes to go back to that for a while if the trade off is real-time HD editing on the desktop, which is the amazing thing we're discussing here!
If you want to go back to DVHS or the camera for archival purposes, Steve's plugin for the shareware MPEG2 encoder (combined with Womble on the PC for TS conversion) seems to be the most economical solution at this point, and I'm now very much looking forward to trying it out.
Having also gone the DV proxy route for editing HD!OU footage, I have to say that for me the Pixlet route seems to be the most straighforward and reliable solution to editing HD on the Mac, and I'm just amazed that Apple have made this possible!

All the best

One last point not to forget is that if you choose, you can also use Pixlet as your Offline or "Proxy"editing format, and I imagine that's exactly what the high end HD folks with their CineAlta's and Varicam's will do.

Cheers

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : One last point not to forget is that if you choose, you can also use Pixlet as your Offline or "Proxy"editing format, and I imagine that's exactly what the high end HD folks with their CineAlta's and Varicam's will do. Cheers -->>>

I think you just made my point. Even the big guys edit with a Proxy. But they won't use Pixlet because it doesn't offer them real-time. They have a proxy that does, why switch.

Having a workflow that LOOKS like DV sounds nice, but:

decompressing VERY HIGHLY compressed MPEG-2 and recompressing to HIGHLY compressed Pixlet and then decompressing Pixlet and recompressing to HIGHLY compressed MPEG-2 for distribution

-- is not how DV WORKS.

Not only are multiple decompression-recompression cycles involved, you are mixing two different codecs. A real no-no.

Your FCP window typically does not show HD rez -- it is scaled down even if you had HD. Proxy fits the window size perfectly.

Pixlet also make huge files. Exactly the opposite of what you want. If you don't care about real-time, just edit with HD MPEG-2! No quality loss. Small file sizes. HD rez on your second monitor.

Try playing MPEG-2 HD files on your new dual G5. I'll bet MPEG-2 plays OK. Let us know.

Steve wrote: "Sorry, but who in their right mind would uncompress 19Mbps MPEG-2 and recompress it to Pixelet for compositing work?!?"

Why not? I am not working on a multimillion dollar blockbuster and can't afford to do uncompressed. Pixlet seems the next best solution. So far the only person that has stated they have actually used pixlet is Paul Mogg and he can't see any difference in quality! You claim that there is a huge loss in quality, but haven't given any proof. Have you actually used pixlet? I'll admit that I haven't, but based on what Paul is saying I don't see why it couldn't be used for compositing. After all HDV is compressed to begin with, and switching formats of compression doesn't guarantee a loss in quality.

If I were shooting on a CineAlta or Varicam there is no way I would work in Pixlet other than for offline purposes. However, HDV is not uncompressed and until someone can prove there is a "huge" loss of quality I don't see why Pixlet is not a viable option.

"HDVcinema now has an HDgateway process that let's you edit with Proxy and use 8-bit or 10-bit uncompressed video for use with the Kona HD card."

If I had a Kona HD Card I doubt that I would use HDVCinema. I mean, if I could afford all of the "real" HD equipment then I wouldn't be using HDV now would I?

"Pixlet is for distribution for very good reasons."

So is MPEG-2 and thats not stopping anyone!




As I've said before, it seems that HDVCinema is a wonderful product from what I've heard. But I feel that I have to take everything you post with a grain of salt because you are trying to sell your product. It seems that you've been opposed to Pixlet from day 1 and all of your posts seem to be a way to prove HDVCinema is a superior solution.

Maybe HDVCinema is superior, but it sure seems like you spend a lot of time trying to shoot down any alternative. Actually, this post wasn't even started to prove pixlet as an alternative, but for some reason you felt the need to bring up HDVCinema anyway.

<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Hawkins : After all HDV is compressed to begin with, and switching formats of compression doesn't guarantee a loss in quality. -->

You are not simply switching formats. You are changing compression schemes. That is far different.

Also, Paul has only looked at the conversion TO pixlet. When he looks at Pixlet back to MPEG-2 blown to 6-feet, I'll be more convinced.


"If I were shooting on a CineAlta or Varicam there is no way I would work in Pixlet other than for offline purposes."

Your highly compressed HDV is more fragile than the LIGHTLY compressed HDCAM or DVCPRO HD.


If I had a Kona HD Card I doubt that I would use HDVCinema. I mean, if I could afford all of the "real" HD equipment then I wouldn't be using HDV now would I?

I don't think you understand the role of a Kona HD card. And, a Blackmagic card is only $2000. You very much would want to SHOOT HDV. And, yes you would want HDVcinema because you've got to get HDV to the HD codec AND you've got to get Proxy video.


"It seems that you've been opposed to Pixlet from day 1 and all of your posts seem to be a way to prove HDVCinema is a superior solution."

Because HDVcinema is a total EDITING SOLUTION not just a codec. Aspect HD is also a total EDITING SOLUTION, not just a codec.

Experimentation is fun -- I did it last spring/summer -- but editing to generate a profit where others can reject your work because they don't like its quality is very different. And it is getting paid for your final HD product that is the point isn't it?

HDVCinema vs. Pixlet...my 19,900 cents:
 

HDV Cinema:
PROS:
- Realtime FX in FCP
- Smaller overall size (Proxy + MPEG2) compared to Pixlet
- Minimal format conversion for quality purposes (MPEG2 stays as source)
- Faster to editing (m2t >> m2v >> proxy, assuming that proxies are generated quicker than pixlet)
- Faster to back to deck/camera (edit project online >> convert to m2t)
- Realtime editing on slower machines (Pixlet requires G4 1 GHz)

CONS:
- $200 and rising. (Wasn't it $100 a week ago?)
- Offline to online process (time consuming)
- No live output to NTSC or HD monitor (Although ther are no reasons the proxy couldn't be DV anamorphic which would allow for live viewing through firewire - HD10U outputs DV 16:9)
- Must go back to online even if the final product is DVD widescreen

USING PIXLET CODEC IN FCP:
PROS:
- Online full HD Rez editing on G4 1GHz
- Ready for conversion to DVD Widescreen, DV 16:9, web Stream, etc. without having to go back to source files
- Color correction on actual footage
- Real size titles, graphics, compositing in other apps.
- Apple supported format...shouldn't be long before FCP allows for direct capture of HDV to Pixlet and Pixlet to m2t or better yet to Deck!
- Live realtime viewing of canvas on HD monitor
- FREE! with Panther

CONS:
- 2nd compression on source file, possible impact on quality
- Bigger file size than proxy. Harder to edit on laptop. Although, Pixlet can be any size...even proxy size
- Longer process to edit (m2t >> m2v >> Pixlet)
- No RT FX
- Needs to be reconverted to m2v and then m2t for output to HD deck/Camera

My Conclusion:
If your final product is HD, it's probably safer and faster, overall, to keep your source file as MPEG-2. Using HDVCinema with DV 16:9 proxy seems like the most efficient solution. It also is a better solution if your machine is slower than G4 1GHz.

If you plan on delivering your final product on DVD Widescreen, I would go with Pixlet. Because you edit from higher rez and...but wait a second? If Steve says that his plugin allows you to use the MPEG 2 in FCP, I bet you some dual G4 or G5 would be able to play that realtime. And if that's the case why go to Pixlet when you can stay in MPEG 2 online in FCP.

So many criteria, so confusing.

I'll probably use Pixlet because it's free.

On the KONA or Decklink solutions, I'd like to point out you don't require a proxy to edit this footage. You can capture from the camera via an Analog-digital converter to the Kona Card in it's own codec, which is uncompressed. You can also select either 8 bit or 10 bit color.

The Decklink card is not available yet, so perhaps we should leave it out of the equation.

As to the pros editing in a proxy..... I'm sorry that's not my experience. There are situations where someone will offline a production using a proxy format but if you're talking Hollywood - no. they keep it in HD.

If you own an edit suite that has the capability to edit in HD, you're gonna edit in uncompressed HD.

Steve's plugin provides a value to folks who want to work in that workflow and does provide an inexpensive alternative for Mac users.

Aspect HD from CineForm also provides a great workflow for people who use PC's and Premiere.

There are compromises to using bleeding edge technology and waiting for software to keep up or catch up is one of them.

I haven't yet received my copy of Panther, so I can't try Pixelet until perhaps later today or tomorrow, but I'm interested in seeing how it works.

As to rendering......well I don't like doing it, but computers are so fast these days that a render is not that time intensive anymore. I was surprised that even rendering uncompressed HD didn't significantly increase my time.

just my 2 cents

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : You can capture from the camera via an Analog-digital converter -->

Very true, but you'll pay $1200 for the converter! And you'll be decompressing to analog and then digitizing again. Much better to capture via FireWire and stay digital.



"As to the pros editing in a proxy..... I'm sorry that's not my experience. There are situations where someone will offline a production using a proxy format but if you're talking Hollywood -- no. they keep it in HD."

That's been true when folks had to pay $20K or more to edit HD. But now that an HD PCI card has dropped in price to $2000 to $4000 -- and falling fast -- many will be moving to edit to HD. They will not want to ALSO buy SCSI with 15kRPM quad stripped RAID systems. That's why they will use Proxy, which IS part of the Kona HD workflow.


"As to rendering......well I don't like doing it, but computers are so fast these days that a render is not that time intensive anymore."

For transitions, I agree. But when you color correct an entire production, you'll not want to render. Or, at least I don't. It can kill creativity.


My entire point is why spend time devising workarounds when two complete solutions already exist. To save a few hundred dollars? To save $1200?

Maybe I'm missing WHY folks bought an HD camcorder. I certainly wouldn't spend $3500 and not be shooting and editing HD productions.

Re: HDVCinema vs. Pixlet...my 19,900 cents:
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich :

Very good summary! Thank you!

"If you plan on delivering your final product on DVD Widescreen, I would go with Pixlet. Because you edit from higher rez and...but wait a second? If Steve says that his plugin allows you to use the MPEG 2 in FCP, I bet you some dual G4 or G5 would be able to play that realtime. And if that's the case why go to Pixlet when you can stay in MPEG 2 online in FCP. -->>>

I just asked Paul to test this out!!!

On a dual G4 1.42GHz HD MPEG-2 almost played smoothly. It might be that a dual 2GHz G5 will play it smoothly.

And if you don't care about RT, it might be a cool way to go. Like Vegas!

Using Pixlet when your output will be SD seems like it should work fine. However, after Sony's cautions about concatinating codecs I'm leary. Think of the total signal flow: MPEG-2 > Pixlet > DV/DVCPRO > link to cable co. using MPEG-2 > link to your home > MPEG-2.

If you lose quality using Pixlet, then it undoes your goal in shooting HD in the first place.

Saving $200 doesn't seem worth the risk -- does it really?

I can't test Panther on my big machine till I know Avid's Xpress DV Pro and Mojo will run under it. So I'm locked out of testing. Will try it on my iBook today.

HDVCinema Review
 

Could we start a thread called HDVCinema Review.

I would love to read reviews from people who have used Steve's solution. Perhaps they're too busy editing now that they can and they stopped coming to this board.

Steve, would you like to start the thread?

Have you thought about limiting your software for a monthly trial or something like it.

I don't have a problem spending $200 (BTW, did you raise the price?) as long as I know I'm getting a true value for it.

Also, the whole 'no paypal' only checks sent to my home thing, tends to turn people off.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :

Very true, but you'll pay $1200 for the converter! And you'll be decompressing to analog and then digitizing again. Much better to capture via FireWire and stay digital.


Actually, the converter is closer to $2500.00. You then capture uncompressed from the camera. No more compression.



"That's been true when folks had to pay $20K or more to edit HD. But now that an HD PCI card has dropped in price to $2000 to $4000 -- and falling fast -- many will be moving to edit to HD. They will not want to ALSO buy SCSI with 15kRPM quad stripped RAID systems. That's why they will use Proxy, which IS part of the Kona HD workflow."

Steve, the only way to edit uncompressed HD is with a SCSI raid system. Now you can feed it with an IDE based SCSI RAID, but it still requires it. Remember, the average HD product is not going to be uncle Fred's 25th anniversary celebration. It's a higher end production, so they will spend the $12K I outlined on another thread to build a basic system to do it. It's tens of thousands less than it once was and affordable for most Documentary productions, Corporate presentations, etc.


" But when you color correct an entire production, you'll not want to render. Or, at least I don't. It can kill creativity."

If you have to color correct an entire production, youhave more problems than the editing system you own and rendering. You have major problems with your camera operator - lighting director and you have no business being in the business. You have a budget to color correct in a color correrction suite.


"My entire point is why spend time devising workarounds when two complete solutions already exist. To save a few hundred dollars? To save $1200?"

Steve your package is a work around in itself. that's it's primary value. If Apple were to release FCP with the ability to deal with native HDV - Mpeg2TS, you would not be in business. Until that happens - and it will - this whole format is a work around.


"Maybe I'm missing WHY folks bought an HD camcorder. I certainly wouldn't spend $3500 and not be shooting and editing HD productions. -->>>"

That's what people are telling you about Pixelet. They want to keep their productions in HD for editing. Until Adobe and Apple and Avid decide to support this new format with native support for the digital stream both in and out via FW, there will be work arounds.

Beside, there is more trouble anyway. No one can output an HD signal to a format that is universally available to play. I mean to say, DVHS is not a standard, and not in many homes/offices. There is no HDDVD yet, and the penetration of HDTV's is still low.

This is Bleeding edge remember?

DBK

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly :

Steve, the only way to edit uncompressed HD is with a SCSI raid system. Now you can feed it with an IDE based SCSI RAID, but it still requires it. -->

That's only partly true. You need only enough fast disk space for the final production, but IF YOU USE PROXY you do not need it for all your source footage.

That's one of Blackmagic's and Kona's selling points. You may not use proxy, but please don't suggest that HD is not edited off-line. It certainly is.

And, for a documentry filmmaker it can save thousands of dollars on fast disks. We just had a post that someone shot 78 hours. That's 78 times 300GB! With proxy its 78 times 850 megabytes. You do the math.


"If you have to color correct an entire production, youhave more problems than the editing system you own and rendering. You have major problems with your camera operator - lighting director and you have no business being in the business."

That's just plain BS. Anyone shooting with the JVC is very likely to color correct every frame, if only to bring the peaks within spec. Moreover, color correction isn't only to FIX things as you imply.


" Beside, there is more trouble anyway. No one can output an HD signal to a format that is universally available to play. I mean to say, DVHS is not a standard, and not in many homes/offices. There is no HDDVD yet, and the penetration of HDTV's is still low."

Sounds like you not expecting to sell many of your DVDs. :)

Steve:
"And, for a documentry filmmaker it can save thousands of dollars on fast disks. We just had a post that someone shot 78 hours. That's 78 times 300GB! With proxy its 78 times 850 megabytes. You do the math."

For clarification Steve. Don't you need space for the 78HRs in full rez even when you use proxy? You can't capture in proxy directly from tape right? You need to capture the m2t, then convert to m2v, then convert to proxy. So estimated you need 78 times 300GB (m2t)...which you can delete after converting to m2v + 78 times 300GB (m2v) + 78 times 850 MB for proxy.

I would be happy to test and review Steve's HDVCinema on a dual G5 with Panther if Steve would care to send me a copy to test. If it is better than the the Pixlet workflow, I'm all for using it.
I'm just very happy to have what I regard as a real edtiing solution in Pixlet right now.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :

That's one of Blackmagic's and Kona's selling points. You may not use proxy, but please don't suggest that HD is not edited off-line. It certainly is.


I didn't suggest HD is not editied offline, it is. I said the pros tend to keep it in HD.
The Pros are not going to use software work arounds to convert it to offline, they are going to have it captured using an uncompressed HD solution, have that converted to offline - say motion JPEG and edit that.

And, for a documentry filmmaker it can save thousands of dollars on fast disks. We just had a post that someone shot 78 hours. That's 78 times 300GB! With proxy its 78 times 850 megabytes. You do the math.

78 hours of footage is an amazing amount of footage. Chances are he'll need to be very selective on his capture.

"That's just plain BS. Anyone shooting with the JVC is very likely to color correct every frame, if only to bring the peaks within spec. Moreover, color correction isn't only to FIX things as you imply."

I know color correction is not just to fix things. It can be an effect too. It still doesn't matter Steve. If you correct everyframe, I'd rather do it in the tapes final destination format - HD than fool with it in the DV 4:1:1 format, then bring it back into a higher color format only to find the color correction is not correct and do it again. Further, anything you do in the proxy edit HAS TO RENDER IN THE FULL FOOTAGE. You can't avoid rendering with your proxy method. IT IS A FACT OF LIFE!!!

"Sounds like you not expecting to sell many of your DVDs. :) -->>>"

The DVD is intended to teach people how to get the most out of the camera, and how to edit it. It's not intended to be distributed in HD. For $49.95 until October 31 and $59.95 after the value is amazing. Free jumpbacks, demo software, a DVD and a DVDROM. We show people how to edit with both the Mac and PC. There is no higher value. It's also easy to buy as we take paypal, Visa/MC or cheques.

Sorry for the commercial.

Ladies and gents,

You have just witnessed the battle of the HDV opportunists.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : For clarification Steve. So estimated you need 78 times 300GB (m2t)...which you can delete after converting to m2v + 78 times 300GB (m2v) + 78 times 850 MB for proxy. -->>>

Nooo. MPEG-2 is very compact. Not 300GB per hour, only 9GBs per hour. So this is 78 x 9GB. (DV is 13GB per hour.) Proxy is 78 x 8.5MB. That's megabytes!

Going to Pixlet is 32GB per hour.

ProxyProcess is a huge savings in the real-world. That's why the world does so much off-line work with HD.

And, Darren, none of the capture apps let you log and batch capture. Why? Because no timecode is available from FireWire -- although it's on the tape.

As you say, life on the bleeding edge.

1) I just went and re-read the FAQ area of this site. I'd suggest others do the same to re-fresh your memories on conduct. I'm getting stressed out reading all these posts. We're suppose to be helping each other - remember?? Think before you post please!

2) Some of us want to contribute our findings about Pixlet, HDcinema and Panther etc. -- however, no one wants to be attacked. I'd like to suggest we all RELAX for a moment. It seems like everyone is throwing lots of information back and forth. I'm someone caught in the middle of all this technical talk - and I bet I'm not alone. It's more than possible for all of us to learn from each other - in a less hectic manner.

3) Darren, I'm looking forward to your DVD - which I already ordered! Can we expect to get it on Nov. in the mail?? That would be great!

4) We should all be HAPPY - HD is finally here for everyone! I'd like to thank everyone who's helped me out on this forum. :)

Chris

"Nooo. MPEG-2 is very compact. Not 300GB per hour, only 9GBs per hour. So this is 78 x 9GB. (DV is 13GB per hour.) Proxy is 78 x 8.5MB. That's megabytes!"

Steve,

I think you meant 78 X 850MB for proxy right?

So the total space requirement for that project you spoke of was 78 X 850MB (For proxy) + 78 X 9GB (for m2v) assuming you delete the m2ts. But you'll need the space to go back to m2t which I estimate at another 78 X 9GB.

Am I correct Steve?

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly :
Further, anything you do in the proxy edit HAS TO RENDER IN THE FULL FOOTAGE. You can't avoid rendering with your proxy method. IT IS A FACT OF LIFE!!! -->>>

One render at the end is very different than constantly rendering during editing.

But having just Googled Pixlet, I'm surprised at how few technical details there are. What may be true:

1) Wavelet based (http://faculty.gvsu.edu/aboufade/web/dw.htm)

2) Fast decode for playback. If not semetric, that means very long encodes.

3) Color space?

4) Types of artifacts?

The Avid Mojo just arrived so I've got to see if it works and if Xpress DV Pro will import HD MPEG-2. Probably not.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : I think you meant 78 X 850MB for proxy right?

YES!

So the total space requirement for that project you spoke of was 78 X 850MB (For proxy) + 78 X 9GB (for m2v) assuming you delete the m2ts.

YES!

But you'll need the space to go back to m2t which I estimate at another 78 X 9GB.

NO. After editing you only have 1 to 2 hours of video to deal with, not 78. And this can be slow storage because it won't be played. It will be converted back to MPEG-2 which takes only 9GB per hour!

Now if my math is right, 850Mb is almost 1GB + 9GB = 10GB per hour of source storage. But, the MPEG-2 is likely kept on a cheap FW drive as speed is of no importance. (You'll need 4 x 250GB drives.)

So the 78GB of Proxy is all that's needed for editing verses 78x32GB for Pixlet. And a PowerBook has 80GB of space. So head to hills to edit 78 hours of video!

Keep the 4 FW drives in a safe place. Hook them up at the end. Also hook up a couple more 250GB drives to hold the uncompressed FCP export.

Not cheap, but nothing compared to SCSI RAID.

Nice!

Guys,

Remember this is Steve's forum, so he's gonna keep bashing you until you give up. I know I am :))

Frederic Haubrich:

I don't consider myself an opportunist. That's just plain rude of you to make such a comment.

I think of myself as a video producer who's trying to shed a little light on this new format and cameras. I do make my living as a video producer and the amount of time, research and money that has gone into developing the package I am selling is staggering. I'm really working hard to make this something that will be useful to everyone from newbies to those trying to evaluate the products that are out there.

The freebies on the DVD alone are over $500.00, so don't call me names.

Christopher C. Murphy:

I might be a few days late with the shipment as this Pixlet release has me back into research and testing and not producing. I appreciate your order and I am working very hard to make this as complete and useful as I can be. I will send out emails later this week when I know when I will be complete. I had planned 1 DVD/DVDROM combo and now, I'm at one DVD and one DVDROM so if nothing else the value is increasing.

I do promise you this though, anyone who buys this will be happy with the amount of info and goodies it contains.

Cheers

Darren,

Is opportunist a bad word? I meant that in a good way. My appologies if I offended you.

(I'm French,...some things loose in the translation)

Is the editing viable on FCP 3? I'm short on cash, and if I can use Pixlet with FCP 3, then that would be great!

Thanks,

heath

Darren,

No rush! I think we'd all love to get a complete product up to your expressed standards.

I appreciate your commitment to a solid product and I'm sure everyone else will too. If every other company out there commited to your standards - well, we might get back to some quality products in the USA! (USA is the best no matter what though.) ;)

Thanks again for putting the time into this DVD/DVD-ROM - it sounds like you've put some blood, sweat and tears into it.

Also, thanks to Steve for his time creating HDcinema - all of this work makes HDV an easier transision.

Thanks to Darren and Steve!

Chris

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Is the editing viable on FCP 3? I'm short on cash, and if I can use Pixlet with FCP 3, then that would be great!

Thanks,

heath -->>>

Questions to ask Health -

Does FCP 3 run on OS 10.3. That's the key to it I would think. If it does, then you're off to the races. If not, then you might have to upgrade.

I can't answer that. The jump to 4 is the best move you could make. The extra features are worth the price of admission.

DBK

I buy 4, 5 comes out soon after. I'm not making as much money as I'd like right now!

heath