Burning HD-DVDs @1080i in FCP 5.1.4
 

I hope I am not going against some sort of forum rule by posting this thread a second time, but I just realized I previously posted it in the wrong category. I am happy to remove it if anyone objects.

Camera: Canon XH-A1
Computer: MacBook Pro, 2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Software: Final Cut Studio, Final Cut 5.1.4 and DVD Studio Pro 4.1.2

I have been experimenting with burning 1080i60 and 1080p30 HDV footage to DVD-R discs and thought I would post my results and work flow. I have found that it is possible to burn progressive HD-DVDs @ 1080p provided you use 1080p30 footage (DVD SP does not seem to import 1080p24 footage). Both the 1080i60 HD-DVDs and 1080p30 HD-DVDs I have created have played perfectly on my Toshiba HD-A20 HD-DVD player. As expected the 1080i60 HD-DVD is interlaced, but the 1080p30 HD-DVD appears to actually be progressive.

Work Flow:
1) Export your 1080i60 or 1080p30 sequence from Final Cut 5.1.4 as a Quicktime Movie to your hard drive (You can edit 1080p30 footage in a 1080i60 timeline without having to render the sequence). Leave "Setting" at "Current Settings", check "Make Movie Self-Contained", and click "Export".

2) Start DVD Studio Pro 4.1.2 and open the "Preferences". Under the "Project" tab set the "DVD Standard" to "HD-DVD", and the "Video Standard" to "NTSC". Click on the "General" tab, and under "HD-DVD Menus, Tracks, and Slideshows", set the "Resolution" to "1920 x 1080i", the "Display Mode" to "16:9 Letterbox", and apply these settings.

Note: You can also change the "Video Standard" of your SD Project from SD-DVD to HD-DVD in the "Disc Inspector" window without opening the "Preferences".

4) Next, "Import" your 1080i60 or 1080p30 Quicktime Movie into the "Assets" window of DVD SP. The Quicktime Movie will usually take a few seconds to load and then a green light appears under the "Status" column.

6) Now simply place the imported sequence into the "Track Editor" window, add your menus, buttons, etc. to your project, and you are ready to burn.

Hugh

So it's that easy? You're exporting an HDV Quicktime file and it's HD-DVD compliant?

DVD SP 4 User Manual (Page 22):

HD Video Assets
There are a variety of sources for HD video assets to use in your HD projects, with the most common being DVCPRO HD and HDV camcorders.
• With DVCPRO HD, once you have finished editing the video, the result will need to be encoded to the HD MPEG-2 or H.264 video format.
• With HDV, which is already compliant MPEG-2 HD video, you can edit the video in Final Cut Pro 5 and import the result directly in your HD projects.

I can't believe it myself, but in retrospect it makes sense. My Canon XH-A1 records to Mini-DV tape using HD MPEG-2 and DVD SP 4.1.2 requires HD MPEG-2 or H-264 files to burn HD-DVDs. What this means is that there is no need to encode using compressor, and that the footage captured from my camera will be identical to the footage displayed on the HD-DVD. The encoding happens only once in camera and thats it. No transcoding of any kind is needed.

Hugh

That's interesting, Hugh, thanks, I'll have to try that. Until now I've been using compressor to encode my 1080i60 HDV projects to an HD DVD file using the "30-min. HD DVD" preset ... have you tried it this way, and if so, was there any qualitative difference between that and just exporting to a QT movie as you explained above?

I have not tried encoding the captured footage using Compressor, so I can't tell you from personal experience if there is a difference in quality. If the camera compresses the footage to tape using the MPEG-2 HD codex and then you further compress the footage using Compressor with new bit rate settings, I have to assume that the resulting file would be degraded. The greatest news about this discovery for me is the amount of time saved by not having to encode my captured footage and the fact that what the camera encodes to Mini-DV tape is what I see when I burn my HD-DVD. As lossless a process as HDV can get. I am also amazed that you can produce a progressive (1080p30) HD-DVD despite the fact that the DVD SP 4 literature does not specify that it can handle 1080p30 files.

From:
Late-Breaking News About DVD Studio Pro 4.1 (Page 3)

DVD Studio Pro Does Not Support All HDV Formats
The following HDV formats are not supported by DVD Studio Pro:
720p24
720p25
1080p24
1080p25
You can convert these to supported HDV formats (720p30, 720p60, 720p50, 1080i60, and 1080i50) for your HD projects using Compressor.

You might want to re-encode your footage using Compressor if you had more than 25 or 30 minutes of HDV footage that you wanted to fit on a DVD-5 HD-DVD, but I am not sure about that.

Hugh

Wow Hugh, this is pretty huge. I've been wanting to try the same thing but haven't got the HD-DVD player to test with. Personally I hesitate to buy the first version of anything but the Toshiba HD-A20 seems pretty solid and not too much $$$.

How about all your titles and menus? Everything works the same as a standard def DVD?

The HD-A20 is from Toshiba's second generation of HD-DVD players, so a lot of the bugs have been worked out. Constant firmware updates by Toshiba help to keep the device operating smoothly. As far as menus, etc. I have only been burning HD-DVDs that play immediately when inserted in to the player and loop continuously, so I am not sure how well the menus, etc. work. As soon as I have the time to make a disc with a full menu, etc. I will post the results. Judging from what I have read I am pretty confident that the entire disc will play properly.

The Toshiba HD-A20 (1080P max output) is down to $325 with free shipping on Amazon and the HD-A2 (1080i max output) is down to $240 with free shipping. The price sure beats any Blu-Ray player out there (approx. $525). I love my HD-A20 and would especially encourage those who use the Final Cut Studio to consider getting one. There is no cheaper way to output high definition content on DVD that I know of.

Hugh

Hugh

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the tip. I have a question. Are the HD DVD that you created playable on normal DVD players?

I don't think so. They are encoded using the MPEG-2 HD codex and as far as I know you need a HD player capable of playing this format. The DVDs I use to burn my HD-DVDs are regular DVD-R discs, but the content is MPEG-2 HD. SD DVD players can play MPEG-2, but not MPEG-2 HD.

Hugh

You can burn an HD DVD w/ a macbook? I've done that same thing with a G5, and went to the apple store and put it in a mac mini. I told the salesman that I want to buy a computer that can play my HD DVD, he said they do not exist yet (5 months ago) BUT the "HD DVD" was playing fine. He said it's actually playing back in SD, and didn't even think one could burn an HD DVD yet. Can you confirm that this HD DVD you made can't play back on computers or standard DVD players?

If you don't have an HD-DVD burner, you're just burning an HD-DVD compliant file to a regular DVD. It SHOULD play in Macs and PCs with HD-DVD software installed (I heard Apple DVD Player might be able to). It will NOT play in regular hardware DVD players. This is similar to people burning DVD compliant media to a CD to play on DVD hardware, which was wildly incompatible, but worked in some cases. It MIGHT play on a hardware HD-DVD player. Anyone with an HD-DVD player want to try this out? I think I'll try this out and see if they'll let me use an HD-DVD player at Best Buy.

I have burned HD-DVD files onto regular DVD-5 media with my Macbook Pro that play on the MBP (I think it looks like HD quality playback) and on the Toshiba HD DVD players. These "HD DVDs" that I create with my MBP do not play on regular set-top DVD players.

The best way to check that, (I would think) is to look at the dvd in actual size instead of full screen mode, and compare that window's size to that of a standard DVD.
So MacBooks come with a built in HD-DVD player/burner, and apple's DVD program can now play HD-DVDs? What type do they play, Blue Ray?

No, we're burning HD-DVD files on a regular DVD.

It looks like it does, since it's playing the HD-DVD files off of a regular DVD.

Not sure about Blu-Ray, but definitely HD-DVD.

The HD-DVDs that I have burned on DVD-R discs play in HD (1920x1080) through DVD Player on my MacBook Pro. The HD-DVDs (using regular DVD-5 discs) also play on Toshiba HD-DVD players in HD as if they were formatted to HD-DVD media. I have tested all of this and DVD SP can in fact burn HD-DVDs using DVD-5 discs and these discs can be played back on Apple's DVD Player (in HD) and on Toshiba HD-DVD players (in HD). I was even able to burn 1080p30 footage to a disc and it played back progressively and in HD on my Toshiba HD-A20 player.

Oh, I see, that's good news. I wish apple didn't tell me that no computer could play back HD.
Can you make a blue-ray or blue laser DVD or atleast play them? I think that's where I was confused. HDV is good enough for me! But does anyone know if one could burn "true HD" with a red ray/DVD-5?

Apple's DVD Player will not playback other HD media such as Blu-Ray or even HD-DVD. The player will only playback HD-DVDs that were authored using a Mac and DVD SP. You can burn HD-DVDs using DVD SP on DVD-5 discs on a regular DVD burner. Look at the previous posts for more info.

Hugh

I'm assuming that's because of the protection on the commercial discs.

I have been doing some experiments and can pretty much say that 720p60 is not functional yet. When one goes to change the disc settings to HD-DVD the only option there is 30 (29.97) fps. 60 is not even an option. This totally sucks because I shoot 720p60. I can burn 720p30 discs but wish 720p60 support was there. I do have the option of converting finished programs to 1080i and then burning but this adds yet another step to the process.

Apple sure is slow to adopt 720p60 even though its an existing broadcast standard. Still cant even digitize or export 720p60 HDV over firewire! Hello?!

Anyway, still thinking about picking up one of the Toshiba players. Probably when the next iteration of DVDSP comes out.

Peace!

I have done this and can say it does work. I even burned onto a dual layer DVD using 720P30 footage.

Just take the disc to Best Buy and try it on a demo DVD player, they were curious to see it and let me.

Looked good on a 50inch Plasma and a Toshiba HD DVD player.

Hi Jim, I'm just reporting that 720p60 does not work. Anything at 30fps does work, just no 60.

That is sooo cool!!!
 

I tried this out over the weekend. Burned a DVD formatted as HD-DVD with some 1080p30 footage from my A1, just like Hugh described.

This is just so cool!! The quality is amazing. Played it back on the Toshiba A20 HD-DVD player that I bought about 2 weeks ago. Really nice. And, like Hugh pointed out, if the source footage is MPEG2 (and not Apple Intermediate Codec) then DVD studio Pro doesn't have to do any transcoding, so burning the disc took less than 15 minutes (that's on a G5/2.3Ghz). Disc includes a menu just like a regular DVD - it's just an HD-DVD.
Thought I'd have to share this since I think it's a great way to show finalized clips.
BTW, turns out you can watch such a disc on the Mac using DVD player (not sure this has been mentioned here). When you select "Actual size" from the video menu, you can easily verify that it's 1920x1080 resolution and not regular SD-DVD.

Best Regards,
Dino

EDIT: P.S. Totally forgot to thank Hugh for sharing this in the first place! Thanks so much!!!

I am glad to see that someone else has succeeded in burning 1080p30 content to a DVD-5 HD-DVD using FCP. Also, thanks for burning a disc that contains a menu. All of my tests to date have not included menus, so it is exciting to hear that your menu or menus worked properly. Did the disc's menu contain multiple buttons, video, sound, etc.?

This is clearly the most affordable way to output HD content at this moment provided your footage is 30 minutes or under. I wonder if you can use a duel layer DVD-5 discs for this same process. I would assume so.

Hugh

Yes, I used one of the templates with like 5 buttons that link to the individual clips. Each button is a frame with a movie tumbnail that loops around to preview the clips, so they play simultaneously as expected. Works beautifully; just like authoring a regular DVD. I didn't include sound in the menu yet, as this was just a first trial, but I intend to burn another one with more clips and I'll add some music there.

I agree, it's almost scary that it's so easy and cheap! I too assume it should be possible to burn DL discs. According to the tech spec the Toshiba HD A20 supports DVD-R DL; question is whether it supports this format as a DVD-5. I guess we'll have to try it out!
Best Regards!
Dino

Next Question!
 

What model of HDTV's are you guys using with your Toshiba? When I went to best buy to test my disk it really looked like horseshiite on the new Toshiba 1080p Regza model- the material was 720p24 which tells me that the A20's scaler is not so great. The bitrate on my DVD was low so I'll be testing another one shortly.

Not the computer guru like many of you on this thread, but would the same concept work with FCHD Express, and burn via iDVD? Haven't moved up to FCS 2 yet. But a very interesting thread. Thanks.

Actually, the scaler in the A20 is reportely one of the best, just following the Toshiba XA2 - that's according to many reports on the AVS forum. I haven't had a chance to test this thorougly on my setup, but so far I find the thing outstanding. I think the bit rate is the key thing here. Any transcoding will lead to a decrease in quality. That's why the procedure Hugh's described is so brilliant - it takes the original HDV encoding and burns it directly without transcoding. Also, I'd be careful with the p24 footage. Toshiba released a 24p-supporting firmwire update for the A20 and XA2 just last week and in order to fully support this your display needs to support it too otherwise it'll pulldown to 60 Hz again (that's all besides the fact the DVD StudioPro doesn't support 24p yet for HD formats).
Best,
Dino

No, that won't work with iDVD. That's one of the many reasons I did upgrade from FCE some time ago.

How much data may the HD-DVD's take, when burned with DVD Studio Pro?
Is it 4.7GB, just like a regular Standard Def. DVD?

This thread has some AWESOME info!!!

nearsightedproductions.com

HD-DVD is 15 GB (single layer) and 30 GB (dual layer). But I don't know of any burner or blank HD-DVD media yet available. I don't even know what they are going to call a burnable HD-DVD.

Maybe HD-DVDR?

What I was talking about was, how many minutes of data may be stored if you burn HD material on a regular DVD-R or DVD-RW like the above people talked about.

Like 20 or 30 minutes.

I have the Toshiba HD-A20 and can say from experience that the scaler is by no means "one of the best". I have my A20 connected to my Mitsubishi HD-1000U projector (720p). Believe it or not the projector does a better job with up-conversion than the player. When the A20 up-converts SD DVDs to 720p the result is terrible. For some reason the A20's scaler does a better job up-converting to 1080i, so I have my A20 up-convert to 1080i and then have my Mitsubishi HD-1000U down-convert the signal to its native 720p. The final result is great, but proves that the A20's scaler is flawed when the player is set to 720p output.

Hugh

This is great info, but I capture everything in AIC so I'm still stuck with a nice long encode back to mpeg-2.

Nice news!

Anybody who know what could be done in Europe with PAL system?

Is this possible with 1080i50 or 1080p25 from a Canon XL H1 or similar camera?

Should work the exact same way as with NTSC. In the project preferences in DVD Studio Pro select PAL, DVD Standard: HD DVD. Then drop your footage in - either 50i or 25p. That's it.

Scott, for me that was the main reason to switch from AIC to HDV codec in final cut - that saves you the transcoding.

Dino

Hi Hugh and Dino, thank you!
Sounds like a great finding but could you please clarify this to me.

I use a Canon XL H1, PAL, in 25F mode.

Do you say I could edit in a 1080i50 timeline instead of 1080p25 timeline? Then it could be imported into DVD SP with 1080i50 setting without having to encode? (DV SP has no 1080p25 setting.)


When I tried a 25F film, edited in a 1080p25 timeline, it took about 4 times longer than the film to import it into DVD SP on a Mac Pro 2.66. It is obviously encoding at the import.

Strangely it thinks the QuickTime film has 24.95 fps. Is this normal?

Thankful for any ideas. /Johan

Yeah, that should work. You should be able to use either a i50 or p25 footage for DVD StudioPro project set to i50. I did a similar thing: I dumped a 1080p30 sequence from the A1 into a i60 project in DVD StudioPro and it didn't reencode. With respect to editing in FCP, I'm not 100% sure you can use the i50 timeline for p25 footage; I did actually do this in Final Cut Express at the time and it worked (30p in 60i timeline), so it might work in FCP too (I haven't tried that).

Maybe you're using AIC codec?

Ehmm... no idea. "It" meaning DVD StudioPro? Maybe that's the reason it's transcoding? Did you check your settings in FCP?

Dino

Has anyone done all this on a dual layer disc yet I currently have a project that is 7.6 gigs and cannot be put on a single layer D-5 at 4.37 gigs. Thanks Gary Williams

I have not tested this technique on a dual layer disc, but there is no reason it should not work the same way a single layer disc works. Someone else asked the same question, but never reported back. Would it be possible for you to try it and let us know if it works?

If you don't have experience with burning DL discs this may help:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage...edia_gary.html

Thanks,
Hugh