FS-4 with 4 Audio Channels
 

One of the main advantages of having the FS-4 is to save time capturing long takes like wedding ceremonies & speeches. The problem for me is my habit of using 2 radio mics, but I still want to have the camera mic as well for ambience, so I use 12 bit mode and capture four channels (XL1s).

My editing system is an RTX100 which lets you capture the extra channels, writing a wav file for every avi clip.

The FS4 needs to do the same. 16 bit mode: avi only; 12 bit mode: avi + wav
or if that doesn't work, a separate file type AVI 2 +2 or something.

I tried a workaround, thinking I could use the AV/C mode to capture as if the FS4 was a deck, but XP finds an unknown device.

Is a driver on the way so XP recognizes this marvellous beast as a playback deck?

It is ironic that I have to go back to capturing the two longest files of every wedding from tape so I can get the extra audio.

Mark

Hi Mark,

You do know that Focus offers an extra software to do just what you need? I'm kind of in the same boat, only there is nothing available for Mac users.

I just looked at the link to that product on Focus's web site but the page doesn't seem to exist anymore, or is not working at the moment.

Here it is anyway.

http://www.focusinfo.com/products/fi.../dvcsuite.html

Thanks Daniel,

I thought it would be a good idea to bring it to Focus' attention early on so they could fix it via firmware, hopefully in the first release. It can't be that hard, the data are there, just not accessible.

I tried the web link and I too found it unavailable. The site must be under maintenance I guess.

Regards,

Mark

i doubt that it's a firmware issue, because the extra sound tracks should be recorded onto the hard drive dv data stream just like they are onto mini-dv tape.

so what you need is a way to pull the extra audio out of the hard drive files... here is the link you are looking for from focus:

http://www.focusinfo.com/dvconversionsuite/dvfc.html

i would make a swag that this software was not written by focus... i think that it's been around for a long time, in one form or another, and in fact, you might be able to find it elsewhere.

the firestore must have accessability to 4-track audio recordings before i'll buy it, so please let us know what you find out from this.

The whole point of D.T.E. is the clever stuff going on before the data get written to disc.

If the Firestore can be told to record as Matrox AVI, which is the old format where the video was avi and the audio was a separate wav, and the FS4 Pro can do Avid format which has separate audio & video files, then it must be a firmware fixable thing.

I am not buying another piece of software to achieve this when it should be simple & inexpensive to implement within the FS4.

It would be nice if someone from Focus could comment.

Mark

Comments from Focus on all topics seem to have dried up in the last two or three weeks.

Is there a problem, chaps?

Ray Liffen

Thanks Dan, for the right link.

Here is a part of thread were Matt McEwen responded to my query into this matter:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....40&postcount=5

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....70&postcount=6

I'm still not ready to buy the software to try it out, though.

changing the data format that is recorded onto the hard drive on a real-time basis is not something that i want to see happen with firmware... after horsing around with that p.o.s. quickstream and it's various formats, i'd be glad to use software to change the data format... of course that will not affect the picture quality.

you really need to look at the workflow to understand the value of the software data formatting... the reality is that you shouldn't just plug this little drive into your editing bay and expect the same level of performance that you'd get off of a full-sized, modern hard drive, it's not gonna happen like that.

so my plans are to copy the dv data over to the big drive, hopefully using this data formatting software... plus, i don't want to thrash the little drive in an editing situation anyway, that's not what notebook hard drives are designed for.

if the software works like we think it should, then it ought to be free with the purchase of the firestore, no question about it.

I am not talking about changing the data format. Direct To Edit means you tell the Firestore what system you're using (avi, mov, etc) the raw .dv stream is then "wrapped" in the appropriate file for your NLE to use without conversion. Using additional software to process this again defeats the purpose. The extra audio is there in the FS4's files, I know because I have transferred to DVCAM from the FS4 and the audio can be played from there. The "firmware" in the DVCAM deck knows how to access the data; the FS4 does not.

Who said anything about editing off the FS4? You plug the FS4 in, it appears as a HDD in your NLE, you copy to your RAID or AV drive, once you're happy it's there you format the FS4, charge her up and she's ready for the next shoot. You can start cutting right away. Unless you have to access channels 3 & 4 that is.

And if you're smart you don't shoot tapeless, you put the tape away as a backup.

Mark

Focus does advertise the FS series as Direct To Edit, which implies, that for the quickest editing, you could edit direct from the small laptop drive.

First of all Focus makes it sound like DTE is their invention, which I don't really believe, since all of the D2D devices I have played with so far (those p.o.ss citidisk and quickstream) can do this as well.

Secondly, I think that this DTE functionality is only really useful for people who are shooting with an extremely fast turn around time - like for news while it is happening. I have worked on a few jobs where the edit had to be finished by the end of the event that was being shot, as a farewell trailer for the participants. That is where this DTE functionality could be theoretically useful. I say "theoretically" because practically, I always first dump the footage to my main HDD, even in this fast-paced editing situations. The reasons for this are, as Dan mentioned, but mostly because I would want to free up the FS so that it could go back out and collect more footage.

But to be completely honest, I have not yet been able to fully implement the use of the FS-4 in these situations. I am still not convinced that the fan noise problem is solved (I am working on a project at the moment, where even my modified FS-4 is audible in some shooting situations). And one would need at least two FS-4's to make full use of the DTE functionality in this type of event documentation situation.

I guess Focus was imagining that the FS-4 would be implemented in situations like they show in their amusing demo film for the FS-3. Shoot for an hour, run to the station, edit in the car on the way to the station for the news, conform the edit at the station five minutes before transmission, save the day. That is where DTE is truly invaluable.

What I don't understand is - if what Mark says is true about transferring back to a DVCAM deck from the FS-4; then the FS-4 is doing it's job of recording the two extra tracks of audio. The problem seems like it may be with our NLE systems. Why won't they recognize the two extra tracks. What makes it so hard for them to access this information?

In light of this, I think that it is justifiable for Focus, or for any other independent software maker, to ask for money for an application that bridges this gap. I wish, however that the application were better tailored to just this problem, and of course would run on a Mac.

I don't think that using a software to process the files on the FS-4 defeats the purpose of using a FS, unless you really need the DTE functionality.

I'm pretty pissed with Apple for not having addressed this issue in the new FCP5 HD software. There is so much hype about how it can capture multiple audio tracks. Only for some reason it can't do this from a FW device. I just don't get it. There must be a reason for this.

*of course* the extra audio tracks are there! we already knew that, it should be an exact digital copy of what is on the tape... so if you put it back to dv tape you should be able to access it via the xl1s... how is that even relevant?

guess what, not all of us shoot boring content that requires the camera to be constantly recording for long stretches of time... so please, stop trying to control the workflow of everyone out here :-)

the point that you have completely missed is that focus has a possible solution that is available NOW... since you already said that you will be copying off of the little drive to your editing drive, why complain about using their software to do it? assuming it works like i think it will, of course, you could be accessing that extra audio right now!

perhaps you are not aware that it takes time to write and q.c. firmware? i agree with your point as a preferable solution for the long haul, but what about right now?

i am kind of amazed that no one has called up focus to ask about the viability of this temporary software fix to access the extra audio tracks.

Dan,

You seem kind of upset.

I didn't get the feeling that anyone was trying to force anyone to work any way. And I don't get why content has to be boring in order to justify backing it up to tape.

"*of course* the extra audio tracks are there! we already knew that, it should be an exact digital copy of what is on the tape... so if you put it back to dv tape you should be able to access it via the xl1s... how is that even relevant?"

I think that this is relevant, because it shows that the files are indeed exact digital copies of what is on the tape. I was beginning to doubt that.

And finally, Focus knows about this issue, because I have brought it to there attention, via this forum.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost...270&postcount=5

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost...270&postcount=6

What else would you suggest? And why don't you call them? It seems to me that you have knowledge in this area, at least a lot more than I do. I just told Matt what I would like to have in the way of functionality, I have no idea how Focus could go about achieving this goal. It sounds like you might.

i called up focus tech support today, the person i spoke to had not seen this issue before, but we talked about downloading the demo version of the focus dv file converter to extract the extra two tracks of audio from the file: "In addition the program offers the following functionality:
...Extract DV Audio (any audio channels, mono, stereo, or quad; written to AIFF or WAV)" - http://www.focusinfo.com/products/fi.../dvcsuite.html

so you take the focus survey and download the demo software... i was able to download the software, and while i don't have the fs4, i will be editing some 4-channel dv files within the next couple of days.

those of you that do have the fs4 should download the demo software and see if this software works for extracting those extra 2 channels of audio... it puts a watermark on the video, but the hope is that we can get useable audio files without having to pay for the software.

who's up for trying this out?

I would, but the software is PC only. Matt McEwen suggested that the software would work with virtual PC on a Mac, but I don't have virtual PC yet.

So, I even have a longer workflow to look forward to if I want to have the second two audio tracks without capturing from tape.

And thanks Dan, for calling Focus about this. I guess Matt McEwen is not as connected with the R and D department at Focus as I thought. Or maybe the person you spoke to is not.

Do you understand what prevents NLE programs from seeing the extra audio channels? What do you think the DVC suite has, that other programs don't? Just curious.

i dialed into tech support, not the r&d department.

the guy who needs to check this out is mark.

since the digital data is the same on both the dv tape and on the firestore, i'm of the opinion that it should not be up to the firestore to seperate the extra audio tracks out for editing... would you ask your canon xl1s to seperate the extra tracks out for you? heck no, you always turn to third party capture software to do that... i use scenealyzer.

being on a mac would sure complicate this situation :-( i wonder what it is about the 4-track audio dv configuration that makes it impossible to read in an editor? that is a good question.

I have been on holidays for a while and missed all the drama on this thread. After having carefully re-read it all, I see where Dan E. is coming from and the solution he suggests does indeed make sense.

If anyone after all this time is interested, I refer back to my earlier post (July 11) where I noted that if the FS4/FS4 pro can make Matrox type 1, Avid & Pinnacle compatible files, which use separate audio, maybe they could have an option for, for instance, avi type 2 plus extra audio.

That's all. I only bring this up again because I haven't seen a reply from Focus Enhancements on this point.

I must take exception to Dan E.'s comments about "shooting boring content" and "controlling the workflow of everyone..." What? Look back through the thread. Who brought up workflow?

Dan, do you feel you can talk down to me because I shoot wedding videos? I have also been making broadcast TV programs, commercials and corporate video including live to air news and current affairs since 1985 so I don't feel intimidated, and I am not above asking a stupid question once in a while, but there are lots of people out there without much experience who come to this fantastic site to gain knowledge from people like you and me. If they worry about being flamed they won't ask.

mark, you left out your comment that incited my response: "And if you're smart you don't shoot tapeless, you put the tape away as a backup." ... since i am intending to go tapeless, you directly insulted me by saying that i wasn't smart to do so... i see your point, but could it have been phrased better... and understand that the smiley i also posted means that it's not serious :-)

i also shoot the occasional wedding, but the short-clip shooting that i do now wrecks the tape drive of the camera, because it requires repeated short pausing... your long-form workflow needs are not applicable to what i do at all, so try to think about the logic behind going tapeless.

beyond all that, you can see that i made some phone calls and attempted to reach a happy medium with this problem, but i have not yet followed thru with testing the demo version of the downloadable focus software on the 4-channel dv data clips captured to a hard drive... if you could give that a shot it might help your(our) problem.

Sorry Dan, the "If you're smart" comment wasn't directed at you personally but to everyone in general, including myself, as I did consider shooting tapeless but I didn't feel confident with the 4-pin end at the camera staying in place. Plus my in-built fear of relying on any new piece of technology, so I don't think it is a smart (read: wise) thing to do.

I have used the FS4 now on several important shoots. Yesterday was a commercial shoot at a private school where I missed a crucial shot of a chicken hatching because the FS4 didn't go into synchro mode (It should be on tape though). The day before was a news shoot with a press conference where again I had trouble powering it up in time to get the shot on disc.

When it came time to feed out the vision to the two networks, I tried playing out from the FS4 and they said the vision wasn't stable, so I tried off tape and that was fine. I am not saying it was the FS4's fault but we didn't have time to muck around, and if I didn't have a tape to fall back on I would have failed to get the story. I don't think I'll even bother using it for news; it's just one more thing to go wrong. (having said that, I could get a massive head clog on the next shoot and record nothing!). If I was doing a lot of news I'd have to mortgage the house for an XDCAM.

Tomorrow I have a wedding - my first with the FS4. I'll let you know how I get on.

BTW Dan, what do you mean by "my long form workflow needs?"

Sorry Dan, the "If you're smart" comment wasn't directed at you personally but to everyone in general, including myself, as I did consider shooting tapeless but I didn't feel confident with the 4-pin end at the camera staying in place. Plus my in-built fear of relying on any new piece of technology, so I don't think it is a smart (read: wise) thing to do.

I have used the FS4 now on several important shoots. Yesterday was a commercial shoot at a private school where I missed a crucial shot of a chicken hatching because the FS4 didn't go into synchro mode (It should be on tape though). The day before was a news shoot with a press conference where again I had trouble powering it up in time to get the shot on disc.

When it came time to feed out the vision to the two networks, I tried playing out from the FS4 and they said the vision wasn't stable, so I tried off tape and that was fine. I am not saying it was the FS4's fault but we didn't have time to muck around, and if I didn't have a tape to fall back on I would have failed to get the story. I don't think I'll even bother using it for news; it's just one more thing to go wrong. (having said that, I could get a massive head clog on the next shoot and record nothing!). If I was doing a lot of news I'd have to mortgage the house for an XDCAM.

Tomorrow I have a wedding - my first with the FS4. I'll let you know how I get on.

BTW Dan, what do you mean by "my long form workflow needs?"

thanks for the feedback on how the fs-4 is working... i'm probably a bit too sensitive about these recorders after the quickstream debacle, which came heavily recommended off of that panasonic forum, but turned out to be a complete p.o.s.

long-form work refers to anything where you turn the camera on and let it record until the tape is gone, without stopping... it's really difficult to use things like scene detection when capturing the footage, and with software like vegas and it's weird trimmer window, it's more of a hassle to edit... but it's easier on the heads than using pause mode all the time, like i have to do.

i can handle clogged heads, it's the $400 replacement cost that kills me... i'll use hot glue to fasten that 1394 connector in there, per mr. kohl's suggestion, but the overall reliability factor of the fs-4 sounds like it's going to be an issue.

Hi Mark,

I checked out the XDCAM after reading your last entry. Looks pretty cool, but the storage mediums seem only to hold less than an hour of footage.

Have you been following the Panasonic HVX200 thread?

I'm beginning to get the feeling that Focus has dropped the ball with the FS-4. I think that it had a really good chance at being a leading alternative to the emerging tapeless cameras, if it worked how it should have. But the FS-4 doesn't, there are just too many "small" issues that make the decision to look for other solutions a lot easier.

Of course we still can't be sure that the emerging cameras will also hold up to what they promise.

Really frustrating!

The XDCAM comes in two models: one records DVCAM only, the other records DVCAM plus IMX which is higher quality, up to 50mb/s and you can choose what bitrate you want for quality vs record time.

Most of the TV networks here are adopting or have adopted it, at least for news, where the PDW 510 (DVCAM only model) is good enough, and you get 80 minutes on disc, which is plenty.

I can remember being exited when Betacam SP came out, as it let us record an extra 10 minutes more than the 20 minute max of the original Betacam!

Whilst I would love one for most of my work, for weddings they are just too heavy for me. My XL1S is still my preferred camera for weddings and I am waiting to see if the JVC HD 101 is a worthy replacement. My preference is a lightweight shoulder-mounted camera.

To Dan Euritt, I now have no option but to use the DV file converter software, as the FS-4 has mysteriously decided to encode the files as .dv instead of .avi 2. I didn't change it and no one else has touched it so why this happened, I don't know.

Actually, I do have an option, and that is to erase the FS4 and capture from tape as normal. It depends on how fast the software can convert the files.

Stay tuned . . .

O.K. downloaded and installed DV file converter and told it to convert files to .avi type 2 but it does not recognize the .dv files from the FS4, despite the files playing fine in the quicktime player.

I tried using quicktime to convert to .avi - works but can't get the extra 2 audio tracks out.

I'm going to capture from tape. The quick time conversion was almost as slow as real time anyway, and this way I get all four tracks via Matrox's RTX plugin.

I suspect there are bugs in the FS4 causing it to change settings. This would also explain why sometimes it won't go into standby when powered up, other times it does. I have to go through the menu and put it back into syncro slave mode because it sets itself to local.

O.K. downloaded and installed DV file converter and told it to convert files to .avi type 2 but it does not recognize the .dv files from the FS4, despite the files playing fine in the quicktime player.

I tried using quicktime to convert to .avi - works but can't get the extra 2 audio tracks out.

I'm going to capture from tape. The quick time conversion was almost as slow as real time anyway, and this way I get all four tracks via Matrox's RTX plugin.

Maybe there are bugs in the FS4 causing it to change settings. This would also explain why sometimes it won't go into standby when powered up, other times it does. I have to go through the menu and put it back into syncro slave mode because it sets itself to local.

here is a bit of a long shot mark, see if it will recognize that .dv format: http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...onverter.shtml

once it's converted to a dv avi, the firestore dv file converter should then be able to extract the extra audio tracks.

man, it's getting kinda ugly for the fs4 :-( i wanted it work so badly, i really need that functionality.

here is another dv file converter with a 30-day trial: http://www.baobab.net/softcs.htm

well, i finally tried to work with 4-channel capturing off of dv tape to one file, so it'll look like the fs4 stuff, but scenealyzer apparently will not allow you to do that... and neither will any other dv capture app, i bet... they all want to give you a seperate wav file for the extra two audio channels.

that could mean that all dv-based editing apps aren't set up to recognize a dv avi file with 4 channels of embedded audio... ack! it's an editing nightmare... as near as i can tell, the focus software will be needed to extract a standard dv avi with the first pair of tracks, then a seperate operation will be required to bring the next pair over as a wave file... if it does indeed work in that manner??

i don't mind doing that because i don't want to edit off of the capture disk anyway, but it would be nice if it could happen in one operation... and then there is the issue of whether or not we should have to pay for extra software just to be able to edit with 4-channel dv audio.

i think you can download the gspot utility to see if there are 4 tracks of audio in the original fs4 file... there is a link at videohelp.com for the utility.

At least a partial explanation of what we're seeing on 4 channel audio
 

Hello, I talked with Matt McEwen & he sent me an email back -- I hope that the information provided below is at least a little helpful on the 4-channel audio issue. Here goes:
------------------
When we (FS-4) record clips on disk, we do not alter the raw dv stream at all and it is recorded to disk as it would be recorded to tape. What we do however, is we wrap that stream in an NLE native wrapper so that the particular NLE is able to recognize the stream (in and out points, locate timecode etc.). In this case, if a customer selects 4-channel audio on their camcorder (12-bit, 4-ch, 32kHz), we do indeed record all four channels in the stream (as I mentioned before, we do not modify the stream itself, so whatever the camcorder is outputting, we record it). However, in the case of the wrapper information, we only identify channels 1 and 2 as in most cases, that is all the NLE supports. So, when in the NLE, the customer may only be hearing channels 1 and 2 of a 32k recording. On the flip side, when we playback raw out of FireStore via FireWire, we are essentially ignoring the NLE wrapper and just playing the raw stream...just like a camera reads off of tape. So that is why they are hearing all four channels.
In the case of (for example) Final Cut, it is not even possible to capture off tape all four channels at once. The customer must first do a capture with channels 1 and 2 selected and then another capture with channels 3 and 4 selected. The end result is two complete captures of the same material...very time consuming. I am not totally sure how Avid works, but maybe it is similar. I did find the following in the Avid Xpress Pro/Xpress DV User Guide however...
"Avid Xpress Pro supports recording and digital cuts of 44.1kHz and 48kHz audio only. It does not support recording and digital cuts of 32kHz (12-bit audio). If you are recording DV audio, set your camcorder or deck to record 16-bit audio (48kHz)."
I think in a lot of cases, customers think FireStore will get around this issue, but at the end of the day, the NLE may not even support 32k 4-channel audio anyway. It would appear from the above info from the Avid manual that they also do not support 32kHz audio.
Hope this helps,
Matt
---------------

I hope this helps too.

Thanks,
Jim at Focus

Thanks Dan, I tried those apps you suggested but no luck; they can't work with raw .DV files. The Focus software doesn't work either, it won't recognize a .DV file either, even though it is supposed to. I am trying to resolve that issue at present with Focus Support.

There are indeed 4 tracks there, as Jim explains. I proved that for myself when I "dubbed" the files from the FS-4 to my DVCAM deck and then captured all 4 channels into my Matrox RTX.100.

When/if I can get Focus' File converter working, I'll let you know.

well, i pulled the trigger on an fs4, it should arrive today... as soon as i make any progress on the 4-channel audio i'll post it... i hope that you can get that .dv issue straightened out, mark.

thanks to jim at focus for weighing in on this issue... if i can get tapeless mode working reliably i'll figure something out for the rest of it... cheap minidv cameras are less than $300, which is a better deal than a $400 head replacement on the xl1s.

I've been reading this thread with interest. I use Avid so I'll run some tests for you guys on 4 channel 32KHz audio.

The basic problem is probaly not the software but the limitations Avid have placed on it to protect their Adrenaline range of hardware which features 8 channels of audio IO.

I can say one thing with certainty - Avid will definitely record 32KHz audio (and play it back) - I'm just not sure off the top of my head whether it will acces audio 3 & 4 in Xpress Pro.

Problem Solved!
 

I had to resort to using the DV File Converter software from Focus because, as well as needing to access the second pair of audio tracks, my FS-4 recorded an entire wedding in .dv format instead of .avi.

The problem was, I couldn't get the software to work on my system, so after many emails back and forth with Focus Support, I can now convert all my files, and pull the extra audio out as a wave file.

The conversions are very fast so it will be worth the $99 for the time it will save me.

Focus Support were fantastic, despite the huge time difference (I don't live at the end of the world, but you can see it from here), particularly Attila, who went to great lengths to help me and got me up and running.

In the past 10 days I have given the FS-4 and my little old XL1S a serious workout, with nine TV commercial shoots, two football games and a modelling school graduation and it hasn't missed a beat.

My second FS-4 battery hasn't been needed yet, as all apart from the commercials shoots were on mains power. I have a small 12V to 240V inverter in the car and I charge the FS-4 in transit.

The way the files are named by date and time is perfect for organising. For example, when I was shooting commercials, I was doing three locations each day: one at 9am, one at noon and one at 3pm. When I need to find the shots for each location, the file name tells me by time of day.

To Dan, I know I've changed my tune about buying more software, etc but I can't think of a more efficient way to do it at this stage. Having the extra audio as a separate file is fine for how I work; I import it into a separate bin and only put it on the timeline when I need it on a shot by shot basis. I usually get Premiere to separate the stereo pair into two mono tracks so I can deal with them independently.

I hope you have success with your setup.

sound familiar? this is where i'm at right now mark, lol! i got the same error message, sure wish that it would work right.

thanks a bunch for the feedback on the focus file converter software, the demo version keeps putting the first pair of audio tracks into the wave file, not the second pair, regardless of how the software is set up... i'm amazed that you got it to work right!

btw, the tapeless mode works great so far on my xl1s... it records all 4 audio tracks, no problem, and it'll play 'em back fine, but i just can't extract the last pair :-/

Resorting to tape backup again
 

The saga continues. . .

After successfully extracting all 4 channels from the raw .dv files I somehow ended up recording at my last wedding, I felt confident that the fully working DV File Converter software I just bought would allow me to access 4 channels from the modelling show I recorded last weekend.

I use the avi2 file type, so I made sure that is what the FS-4 was set to and off I went. It seems that avi2, and presumably other file wrappers as well, ignore the extra pair of tracks. (See Jim's Sept 14 post)

DV File Converter just gives you tracks 0 & 1 whatever track you choose. So I thought, OK, convert back to raw .dv and they will be accessible. No such luck. Surely the file conversion process is lossless - where has the audio data gone? The files must be editable to recover the audio data? I will persue this with Focus support.

I did a quick test and dubbed a piece from tape to the FS-4, set to raw .dv, and sure enough, DV File Converter can extract all four tracks.

The solution it would seem at the moment is to record in RAW format if you want to use 4 tracks. I guess whatever file type you use, Dan, is doing the same thing, ignoring the extra audio. What a P.I.T.A!

At least Focus gives us the option of the raw format, and a means to convert it too, and it is a speedy process to convert. The P.I.T.A. part is me having to spend another Sunday capturing again, the smug look on my face when I thought I'd saved hours of time on this job is long gone.

I just have two comments about your latest experiences Mark. No, three ... first off, thanks a lot for sharing what you are going through with us (me), your trials are of great use to me, and will prevent me from repeating the problems that you are experiencing.

My other comments are; it is a darn shame that the FS-4 doesn't work the way one would hope or expect it to - especially regarding the 4 Channel issue. And it sounds like you have found a reasonable workable work-around for those of us who want, or need to shoot with 4 channel audio. Which is a very good thing, even if it is somewhat disappointing in it's needless complexity.

Many thanks

as near as i can tell, raw dv is the only format that you can record in if you want to be able to access all 4 channels of audio... the workflow would look something like this:

1)plug fs-4 into computer, it shows up as another hard drive... use dv converter software to extract(aka copy) the second pair of audio channels from the fs-4 hard drive to the computer hard drive.
2)then use the dv converter software to convert(aka copy) from the raw dv file on the fs-4 hard drive to a type2 avi on the computer hard drive.

all of the filenames will be correct and relative to each other, so you'll know how to line up the second audio pair with it's matching video clip... this works for editing because you can't hear the second pair of audio tracks inside of the type2 avi file, it's like they aren't even there.

you should not need to capture from tape at all, this file conversion/copy process should be at least 4x faster(??) than a tape capture.

i wrote up a review of the fs-4 and a prototype mounting bracket that i cobbled together, daniel kohl will like this hack job :-) but i also posted some downloadable 4-channel clips, recorded in both raw dv and type2 avi.

see for yourself how difficult it is to work with this stuff... one of my biggest disappointments is with the quicktime player, because you can hear all 4 tracks playing at once in the raw dv file, but how do you extract the second pair? afaik, it doesn't even know they are there!

Firestore FS-4 Digital Video Recorder Review

Nicely done Dan,

My hat's off to you. There is not enough hot glue on your rig for my taste, but top of the line Retrofitting in my opinion.

Do you think that the additional foam padding is really necessary? I guess you do, otherwise you wouldn't have included it in the rig. I'm just asking in case you have had any specific problems with the FS-4 and jolts. Or is the padding a preventative measure. Good idea for the batteries - how long can you record with them?

And nice site by the way.

dan, i'm going to fit that hot glue in there sooner or later! it's a good idea.

i actually have the 15-minute rechargeable nimh aa's, and they are only rated at 2000mah, but that is still over twice the capacity of the standard firestore battery... so you could run the fs-4 for 6 hours on just the aa's?? i have only recorded ~4 gigs of data onto the fs-4 so far, no operational problems yet.

the only reason that i went with the foam padding is because the fs-4 will be mounted on a hand-held camera, sweeping the length of the 1/4 mile from trackside at very high rates of speed... i hope that it's enuf protection.

i hope that people try downloading and testing those raw dv and avi clips that have the 4-channel audio on 'em... we need to see some alternatives for working with this stuff... for instance, procoder will change the format very quickly, but is it lossless? is there a way to use qt to extract the audio tracks that i don't know about? etc.

Hi dan,

Your website inspired me to work on mine a little. I posted some pictures showing my use of hot glue.

http://www.marq5.de/FS-4.html