Is it too EARLY to convert to HDV at DVinfo.net

Antony Quintin · December 19th, 2004, 09:02 AM

What are your thoughts?

I am at present trying to decide on a camera to buy.

I live in the UK and I need a camera asap.

I have been looking at both the Canon XL2 and the Sony FX1.

Where my problems lies is should I go ahead and buy the Canon of SD or take a step forward to HDV?

Is HDV quality at present good enough to justify buying the Song FX1?

thanks
A

David Newman · December 19th, 2004, 12:02 PM

If you clients can be temped by HD, or they want to future proof content you shoot today, then HDV is an excellent solution (the quality is here.) If your business will not be implacted by arrival HD-DVD/BluRay in the next 18 months then an SD camera will be OK. So much depends on the market you are in.

Robin Davies-Rollinson · December 19th, 2004, 12:29 PM

Antony,
I think a lot depends on what you are going to use the camera for.
I've considered both cameras, but I'm starting to come down in favour of the the FX1 for purely pragmatic reasons.
I've no interest in "film" look or entering Film Festivals for that matter.
I shoot mainly for broadcast and since most of the other cameras in the chain are Sony, then it makes sense to choose Sony.
Also, I have to consider servicing. We have a very good Sony Broadcast equipment supplier in Cardiff - Stylus-Technic - so I know that at the first sign of any trouble I can get the camera to them and get a replacement while mine is being serviced
The BBC in Wales are certainly interested in using them for DV shooting instead of the ubiquitous PD150/170.
If you only used it for straight DV shooting in 16:9, you'd be getting great images -as good as and cheaper than the XL2.
Of course, then you wouldn't get interchangeable lenses etc etc -
It's not the best of times to make such a decision is it ...
One almost needs to wait six months and see what the other big names are going to come up with!

Robin

Barry Green · December 19th, 2004, 12:34 PM

If your needs are that you need to shoot high-def today, then the FX1 is the only (and obvious) choice. And it is a good choice.

However, since you live in the UK, you should watch the EBU for their recommendation about European HDTV broadcast standards. Unlike the US, where we embraced both 720p and 1080i, apparently Europe is going to choose one or the other. And I guess at IBC they leaked that the EBU was endorsing 720/50P instead of 1080/50i. Which made Sony furious, because it would effectively orphan their HDV lineup (unless you want to cross-convert). So I guess the EBU retracted their statement... not too sure on all the facts... but it looks like the EBU is definitely leaning towards 720/50p.

Plus, there's the unknown quantity, Panasonic, who look for all the world poised to announce a DVCPRO-HD solution. DVCPRO-HD is a far superior format to HDV, offering 4x the bandwidth (100mbps instead of 25mbps), frame-discrete compression instead of 15-frame GOP's (no 15-frame dropouts on DVCPRO-HD!), 8 channels of uncompressed audio instead of two channels of compressed audio, 4:2:2 color sampling instead of 4:2:0, and Panasonic's already lined up both FCP-HD and Avid Express as editing solutions that natively support DVCPRO-HD. But when will Panasonic release something? Or even announce it? That's the wild card that nobody knows.

So if you have to buy now, you have no choice, you must go FX1/HDV. But if you don't have to buy now, what do you have to lose by waiting? Sure seems that for anyone who can afford to wait, the EBU and DVCPRO-HD announcements would make it worth waiting.

Antony Quintin · December 19th, 2004, 12:37 PM

thank you for your comments

A

Robin Davies-Rollinson · December 19th, 2004, 12:42 PM

Thanks Barry,
I wasn't aware of the EBU question!

Robin

Antony Quintin · December 19th, 2004, 01:17 PM

The other thing worth considering is that you need a computer than can handle HDV so that wud need upgrading 2?

Barry Green · December 19th, 2004, 05:56 PM

Not necessarily -- depends on your computer. There are some users getting satisfactory performance using proxy codecs like CineForm on a reasonably fast Pentium IV, I believe Cineform specifies a hyperthreaded 2.8GHz.

If you have a PC in that class, you can probably edit HDV satisfactorily today. If your PC isn't that strong, then yes you'd probably need to upgrade.

Bob Harotunian · January 1st, 2005, 12:27 PM

And if you don't want to use your expensive HD camera as an editing deck, how do you get from camera to PC?

Chris Hurd · January 1st, 2005, 01:45 PM

Bob, HDV from the camcorder into a PC or Mac is through FireWire.

Bob Harotunian · January 1st, 2005, 01:50 PM

I know that Chris. Question is what firewire enabled device do you use as an editing deck. I'm assuming that an DV deck like the Sony DSR11 or any DV camcorder won't transfer HD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Chris Hurd · January 1st, 2005, 02:06 PM

You're not wrong, of course; a DV deck can't handle HDV. I guess the real question is, after you've edited your HDV piece in the computer, what sort of distribution medium do you need. Maybe you won't always be going back to HDV. If you want to go back to HDV in order to archive the final edited master, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with using an HDV camcorder as an HDV deck on an occasional basis. If going back to HDV is something you're going to be doing on a frequent basis, then you might want to consider an HDV deck, such as the Sony HVR-M10U.

Chris Hurd · January 1st, 2005, 02:09 PM

Also I don't see a problem with using the camcorder to play HDV for capturing raw video into an editing system. If that's going to be a big deal, why not bypass tape completely and record to a portable firewire hard drive during the aquisition process. Focus Enhancements has already announced their intention to support HDV capture for their FireStore product line.

Dave Campbell · January 1st, 2005, 06:28 PM

Chris, where did you see the comment from focus?
Will it be a new product, or can their existing stuff have a firmware
upgrade?

Thanks

Dave

Bob Harotunian · January 1st, 2005, 06:59 PM

Looks like one price I found for the HVR-M10U VTR is $3,599.00. Coming from the wedding industry, my concern is that the conversion to HDV cannot be supported for some time based on the prices we're seeing, not to mention all the missing pieces. If you're currently running a P3 PC w/Premiere 6x, you're talking about upwards of $20,000 in new gear, hardware and software.

Some people talk about future proofing by using an FX1 for SD movies now and using the tape resource for HD production later. I don't buy that since I can't see clients paying for 2 edits.

I recently decided to buy 2 PD-170s and will re-visit HDV in late 2006. Rather be on the leading, not bleeding edge.
Bob

December 19th, 2004, 09:02 AM	#1
Antony Quintin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	Is it too EARLY to convert to HDV What are your thoughts? I am at present trying to decide on a camera to buy. I live in the UK and I need a camera asap. I have been looking at both the Canon XL2 and the Sony FX1. Where my problems lies is should I go ahead and buy the Canon of SD or take a step forward to HDV? Is HDV quality at present good enough to justify buying the Song FX1? thanks A

December 19th, 2004, 12:02 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	If you clients can be temped by HD, or they want to future proof content you shoot today, then HDV is an excellent solution (the quality is here.) If your business will not be implacted by arrival HD-DVD/BluRay in the next 18 months then an SD camera will be OK. So much depends on the market you are in. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 1st, 2005, 01:45 PM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Bob, HDV from the camcorder into a PC or Mac is through FireWire. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 1st, 2005, 02:06 PM	#12
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	You're not wrong, of course; a DV deck can't handle HDV. I guess the real question is, after you've edited your HDV piece in the computer, what sort of distribution medium do you need. Maybe you won't always be going back to HDV. If you want to go back to HDV in order to archive the final edited master, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with using an HDV camcorder as an HDV deck on an occasional basis. If going back to HDV is something you're going to be doing on a frequent basis, then you might want to consider an HDV deck, such as the Sony HVR-M10U. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 1st, 2005, 02:09 PM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Also I don't see a problem with using the camcorder to play HDV for capturing raw video into an editing system. If that's going to be a big deal, why not bypass tape completely and record to a portable firewire hard drive during the aquisition process. Focus Enhancements has already announced their intention to support HDV capture for their FireStore product line. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 19th, 2004, 12:29 PM	#3
Robin Davies-Rollinson Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gwaelod-y-garth, Cardiff, CYMRU/WALES Posts: 1,215	Antony, I think a lot depends on what you are going to use the camera for. I've considered both cameras, but I'm starting to come down in favour of the the FX1 for purely pragmatic reasons. I've no interest in "film" look or entering Film Festivals for that matter. I shoot mainly for broadcast and since most of the other cameras in the chain are Sony, then it makes sense to choose Sony. Also, I have to consider servicing. We have a very good Sony Broadcast equipment supplier in Cardiff - Stylus-Technic - so I know that at the first sign of any trouble I can get the camera to them and get a replacement while mine is being serviced The BBC in Wales are certainly interested in using them for DV shooting instead of the ubiquitous PD150/170. If you only used it for straight DV shooting in 16:9, you'd be getting great images -as good as and cheaper than the XL2. Of course, then you wouldn't get interchangeable lenses etc etc - It's not the best of times to make such a decision is it ... One almost needs to wait six months and see what the other big names are going to come up with! Robin

December 19th, 2004, 12:34 PM	#4
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	If your needs are that you need to shoot high-def today, then the FX1 is the only (and obvious) choice. And it is a good choice. However, since you live in the UK, you should watch the EBU for their recommendation about European HDTV broadcast standards. Unlike the US, where we embraced both 720p and 1080i, apparently Europe is going to choose one or the other. And I guess at IBC they leaked that the EBU was endorsing 720/50P instead of 1080/50i. Which made Sony furious, because it would effectively orphan their HDV lineup (unless you want to cross-convert). So I guess the EBU retracted their statement... not too sure on all the facts... but it looks like the EBU is definitely leaning towards 720/50p. Plus, there's the unknown quantity, Panasonic, who look for all the world poised to announce a DVCPRO-HD solution. DVCPRO-HD is a far superior format to HDV, offering 4x the bandwidth (100mbps instead of 25mbps), frame-discrete compression instead of 15-frame GOP's (no 15-frame dropouts on DVCPRO-HD!), 8 channels of uncompressed audio instead of two channels of compressed audio, 4:2:2 color sampling instead of 4:2:0, and Panasonic's already lined up both FCP-HD and Avid Express as editing solutions that natively support DVCPRO-HD. But when will Panasonic release something? Or even announce it? That's the wild card that nobody knows. So if you have to buy now, you have no choice, you must go FX1/HDV. But if you don't have to buy now, what do you have to lose by waiting? Sure seems that for anyone who can afford to wait, the EBU and DVCPRO-HD announcements would make it worth waiting.

December 19th, 2004, 12:37 PM	#5
Antony Quintin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	thank you for your comments A

December 19th, 2004, 12:42 PM	#6
Robin Davies-Rollinson Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gwaelod-y-garth, Cardiff, CYMRU/WALES Posts: 1,215	Thanks Barry, I wasn't aware of the EBU question! Robin

December 19th, 2004, 01:17 PM	#7
Antony Quintin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	The other thing worth considering is that you need a computer than can handle HDV so that wud need upgrading 2?

December 19th, 2004, 05:56 PM	#8
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Not necessarily -- depends on your computer. There are some users getting satisfactory performance using proxy codecs like CineForm on a reasonably fast Pentium IV, I believe Cineform specifies a hyperthreaded 2.8GHz. If you have a PC in that class, you can probably edit HDV satisfactorily today. If your PC isn't that strong, then yes you'd probably need to upgrade.

January 1st, 2005, 12:27 PM	#9
Bob Harotunian Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 360	And if you don't want to use your expensive HD camera as an editing deck, how do you get from camera to PC?

January 1st, 2005, 01:50 PM	#11
Bob Harotunian Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 360	I know that Chris. Question is what firewire enabled device do you use as an editing deck. I'm assuming that an DV deck like the Sony DSR11 or any DV camcorder won't transfer HD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

January 1st, 2005, 06:28 PM	#14
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Chris, where did you see the comment from focus? Will it be a new product, or can their existing stuff have a firmware upgrade? Thanks Dave

January 1st, 2005, 06:59 PM	#15
Bob Harotunian Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 360	Looks like one price I found for the HVR-M10U VTR is $3,599.00. Coming from the wedding industry, my concern is that the conversion to HDV cannot be supported for some time based on the prices we're seeing, not to mention all the missing pieces. If you're currently running a P3 PC w/Premiere 6x, you're talking about upwards of $20,000 in new gear, hardware and software. Some people talk about future proofing by using an FX1 for SD movies now and using the tape resource for HD production later. I don't buy that since I can't see clients paying for 2 edits. I recently decided to buy 2 PD-170s and will re-visit HDV in late 2006. Rather be on the leading, not bleeding edge. Bob