Smaller HDV camera?

Kaspar Stromme · March 29th, 2005, 08:29 AM

If the evolution of DV is any indication we should be seeing consumer-level HDV in a year or two, in sizes similar to current consumer DV cams.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Campbell : Okay, I would love to buy a new HDV camera, but, the size is a concern.
I currently have the sony vx2000 and it really is about as big as I want since
I love to take it on family trips like to Disneyland. I have held a FX1 and it
really is large. Any idea if anything at NAB will be offered in a size around
the vx2000?

Thanks -->>>

Heath McKnight · March 29th, 2005, 09:52 AM

I think the only way we'll see HDV really adopted by manufacturers is when native PC and Apple editing applications are perfected, which should be soon.

heath

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 29th, 2005, 10:28 AM

Heath you must be kidding! You do know iMovie does HDV, don't you? Sure, there are some recompression artifacts, but it's not supposed to be a pro application anyway.

Heath McKnight · March 29th, 2005, 11:02 AM

Ignacio,

iMovie HD is something I've used, and I like it, but the artifacting is a bit of a pain.

We talk about it here.

I am hoping Apple has a much better HDV editor in mind in Final Cut Pro 5, which is rumored to premiere at NAB next month, and I'm confident it well.

heath

Robert Jackson · March 29th, 2005, 10:55 PM

<<<-- I love to take it on family trips like to Disneyland. -->>>

Trips? Like plural? Wow. And you want to capture that in high-def? ;-)

I went to Disney World in '77. I got dragged there again in '89. I live in California now and sooner or later someone is going to drag me to Disneyland and I'll wish for sedation for 12 hours. I'll tell you what I did kind of enjoy, though. Someone dragged me to Disney-MGM in '97 or so. The Prime Time Cafe/Tune-In Lounge was cool. That 50's deco thing and the presence of alcohol made the horror of being in hell more tolerable. ;-)

I never understood shooting video in those places, though. "And this was the time we showed little Timmy how to stand in a line for four hours. Man, look how much fun he's having. And here's where we paid $50 for a stuffed rat that spouts cocky phrases when you massage its submaxillary salivary gland!" To me you might as well shoot video in the mall.

That HD-100 sure looks promising, though, huh? ;-)

Dave Campbell · March 29th, 2005, 11:07 PM

My family drags me to Disneyland for 5 days once a year.
I have been taking video on every trip for years. Now that I am editing the material into DVD's, it is sure neat to see my kids have a great time when they were small, to see my parents with us, etc. So, I go as a good father and Dad. Now, if the weather is warm, the sights are not bad either. :o)

So yes, I would love to start taking this trip with HD in 16X9.

I have also started to import thousands of slides that family members have. I made on set into a DVD for family members and they just loved it!! These projects are the best things I have ever worked on and will be with my kids well after I am gone.

Dave

Steven Gotz · March 29th, 2005, 11:16 PM

I love EPCOT Center and getting the old hippie rock bands on tape in May. I have Arlo Guthrie, Herman's Hermits, and others. Although some don't allow it. Most do.

I love shooting at the Animal Kingdom as well. Not like being in Africa, but better than a zoo for the most part.

And shooting fireworks is always a challenge.

I will actually be retiring to Disney World in three years. A season pass to people watch.

A smaller camera would help, but for now, the huge FX1 will have to do.

Robert Jackson · March 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Campbell : These projects are the best things I have ever worked on and will be with my kids well after I am gone.

Dave -->>>

That's cool. I was mostly just kidding. Still, you might want to consider alternatives. I can barely remember trips to theme parks I took with my family as a kid, but when I close my eyes right now I can still see the gutters running when we went to New Orleans in '69. Or the time they brought out "aged beef" at a cafe in Mexico City in '71 and sliced the green fur off it before cooking it up for us. Or the time bears tore our tent apart in the Smokey Mountains because dad was sure it would be no big deal to leave the cooler in the tent.

No corporate promotional tool will ever give a kid memories that make them remember their folks more fondly than the time the car overheated going up Pike's Peak and dad had to back all the way down the mountain while mom closed her eyes and prayed.

-Dr. Rob (not a licensed family therapist)

Heath McKnight · March 29th, 2005, 11:28 PM

We've gotten a little off track here, so let's talk more about smaller HDV cameras.

heath

Robert Jackson · March 29th, 2005, 11:46 PM

FWIW, HDV seems ideally suited to very small-scale applications. Its limited bandwidth should allow small flash-based cameras to serve as great "vacation cameras" and because people don't have to have extremely fast RAID systems to edit it the potential for deep market saturation as an early consumer camcorder format is probably pretty high. Everyone seems set on pushing it as a prosumer format instead of looking at who's buying up all the plasma sets and scaling DVD players. Maybe if JVC and Sony would come out with small consumer HDV cameras the volume they did would help push the software development that would help out "prosumers" ("hobbiests" just doesn't sound cool enough, I guess) at the end of the day.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 29th, 2005, 11:50 PM

Except that, according to the rules from the HDV consortium, there can be no HDV cameras that record on anything but MiniDV tape. Not even DVCAM track pitch is admitted! Of course this is stupid, MPEG2 is MPEG2 and if a camera records an HDV-compatible data stream it will be ok, even if it can't bear the HDV logo.

Heath McKnight · March 30th, 2005, 09:31 AM

JVC has gone beyond the HDV specifications with their HD-100, which is 24p.

heath

Barry Green · March 30th, 2005, 02:03 PM

Right -- the JVC bears two logos, HDV and ProHD. It can record fully-compliant HDV onto a miniDV tape. Of course, when doing so you don't get 24p, you don't get uncompressed audio, etc., because those aren't part of the HDV spec. So in those cases it records in ProHD mode, which gives you those features, but makes data that is not HDV-compatible, and would not be able to be played back in other HDV equipment (i.e., you're not going to take a ProHD tape over to a Sony FX1 and play it back, it won't work, even though the tape will physically fit in the camera and even though the MPEG-2 compression is compatible between them).

March 29th, 2005, 08:29 AM	#16
Kaspar Stromme Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 36	Re: Smaller HDV camera? If the evolution of DV is any indication we should be seeing consumer-level HDV in a year or two, in sizes similar to current consumer DV cams. <<<-- Originally posted by Dave Campbell : Okay, I would love to buy a new HDV camera, but, the size is a concern. I currently have the sony vx2000 and it really is about as big as I want since I love to take it on family trips like to Disneyland. I have held a FX1 and it really is large. Any idea if anything at NAB will be offered in a size around the vx2000? Thanks -->>>

March 29th, 2005, 09:52 AM	#17
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I think the only way we'll see HDV really adopted by manufacturers is when native PC and Apple editing applications are perfected, which should be soon. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

March 29th, 2005, 10:28 AM	#18
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Heath you must be kidding! You do know iMovie does HDV, don't you? Sure, there are some recompression artifacts, but it's not supposed to be a pro application anyway. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 29th, 2005, 11:02 AM	#19
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Ignacio, iMovie HD is something I've used, and I like it, but the artifacting is a bit of a pain. We talk about it here. I am hoping Apple has a much better HDV editor in mind in Final Cut Pro 5, which is rumored to premiere at NAB next month, and I'm confident it well. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

March 29th, 2005, 10:55 PM	#20
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	Re: Smaller HDV camera? <<<-- I love to take it on family trips like to Disneyland. -->>> Trips? Like plural? Wow. And you want to capture that in high-def? ;-) I went to Disney World in '77. I got dragged there again in '89. I live in California now and sooner or later someone is going to drag me to Disneyland and I'll wish for sedation for 12 hours. I'll tell you what I did kind of enjoy, though. Someone dragged me to Disney-MGM in '97 or so. The Prime Time Cafe/Tune-In Lounge was cool. That 50's deco thing and the presence of alcohol made the horror of being in hell more tolerable. ;-) I never understood shooting video in those places, though. "And this was the time we showed little Timmy how to stand in a line for four hours. Man, look how much fun he's having. And here's where we paid $50 for a stuffed rat that spouts cocky phrases when you massage its submaxillary salivary gland!" To me you might as well shoot video in the mall. That HD-100 sure looks promising, though, huh? ;-)

March 29th, 2005, 11:07 PM	#21
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	My family drags me to Disneyland for 5 days once a year. I have been taking video on every trip for years. Now that I am editing the material into DVD's, it is sure neat to see my kids have a great time when they were small, to see my parents with us, etc. So, I go as a good father and Dad. Now, if the weather is warm, the sights are not bad either. :o) So yes, I would love to start taking this trip with HD in 16X9. I have also started to import thousands of slides that family members have. I made on set into a DVD for family members and they just loved it!! These projects are the best things I have ever worked on and will be with my kids well after I am gone. Dave

March 29th, 2005, 11:16 PM	#22
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	I love EPCOT Center and getting the old hippie rock bands on tape in May. I have Arlo Guthrie, Herman's Hermits, and others. Although some don't allow it. Most do. I love shooting at the Animal Kingdom as well. Not like being in Africa, but better than a zoo for the most part. And shooting fireworks is always a challenge. I will actually be retiring to Disney World in three years. A season pass to people watch. A smaller camera would help, but for now, the huge FX1 will have to do. __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

March 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM	#23
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Campbell : These projects are the best things I have ever worked on and will be with my kids well after I am gone. Dave -->>> That's cool. I was mostly just kidding. Still, you might want to consider alternatives. I can barely remember trips to theme parks I took with my family as a kid, but when I close my eyes right now I can still see the gutters running when we went to New Orleans in '69. Or the time they brought out "aged beef" at a cafe in Mexico City in '71 and sliced the green fur off it before cooking it up for us. Or the time bears tore our tent apart in the Smokey Mountains because dad was sure it would be no big deal to leave the cooler in the tent. No corporate promotional tool will ever give a kid memories that make them remember their folks more fondly than the time the car overheated going up Pike's Peak and dad had to back all the way down the mountain while mom closed her eyes and prayed. -Dr. Rob (not a licensed family therapist)

March 29th, 2005, 11:28 PM	#24
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	We've gotten a little off track here, so let's talk more about smaller HDV cameras. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

March 29th, 2005, 11:46 PM	#25
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	FWIW, HDV seems ideally suited to very small-scale applications. Its limited bandwidth should allow small flash-based cameras to serve as great "vacation cameras" and because people don't have to have extremely fast RAID systems to edit it the potential for deep market saturation as an early consumer camcorder format is probably pretty high. Everyone seems set on pushing it as a prosumer format instead of looking at who's buying up all the plasma sets and scaling DVD players. Maybe if JVC and Sony would come out with small consumer HDV cameras the volume they did would help push the software development that would help out "prosumers" ("hobbiests" just doesn't sound cool enough, I guess) at the end of the day.

March 29th, 2005, 11:50 PM	#26
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Except that, according to the rules from the HDV consortium, there can be no HDV cameras that record on anything but MiniDV tape. Not even DVCAM track pitch is admitted! Of course this is stupid, MPEG2 is MPEG2 and if a camera records an HDV-compatible data stream it will be ok, even if it can't bear the HDV logo. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 30th, 2005, 09:31 AM	#27
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	JVC has gone beyond the HDV specifications with their HD-100, which is 24p. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

March 30th, 2005, 02:03 PM	#28
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Right -- the JVC bears two logos, HDV and ProHD. It can record fully-compliant HDV onto a miniDV tape. Of course, when doing so you don't get 24p, you don't get uncompressed audio, etc., because those aren't part of the HDV spec. So in those cases it records in ProHD mode, which gives you those features, but makes data that is not HDV-compatible, and would not be able to be played back in other HDV equipment (i.e., you're not going to take a ProHD tape over to a Sony FX1 and play it back, it won't work, even though the tape will physically fit in the camera and even though the MPEG-2 compression is compatible between them).