SDI Output - Portable Capture Device

Keith Wakeham · November 15th, 2005, 07:56 PM

Wafian just got some pics up on their website of the HR-1 cineform compressed HD-SDI recorder. Great as a field deck but seems more like a computer in a nice box with an lcd than anything.

However, it is closer to a price more people would be willing to explore (15k) but is definetly suited only for studio or a powered set location. Definetly cheaper than HD-CAM or HD-CAM SR, but not really as portable.

Brian Longley · November 15th, 2005, 09:02 PM

I have talked with Dave at Cineform. I am looking forward to seeing the product. Chris and I talked about the likely hood of being able to see everything by the NAB show, maybe even all in a row! That would great. HDV should be well rounded by then.
I hope you weren't really hit by a yukon? yikes. brian

Serge Victorovich · November 17th, 2005, 05:18 AM

In today reality is only one portable capture device with hd-sdi input at affordable price is Flash DVR:

# NTSC, PAL, HDTV 720p/60, HDTV 1080i/23.976, 1080p/23.976, 1080i/24, 1080p/24, 1080i/25, 1080p/25, 1080i/29.97, 1080p/29.97, 1080i/30, 1080p/30, 1080i/60;
# UP to160 GB
# 330MB/sec speed
# BNC HDSDI in SMPTE292M/SMPTE259M;
# BNC HDSDI out SMPTE292M/SMPTE259M;
# Multiple formats in same time
# embeded audio support
# RS-232 Remote Control ( Sony 9-pin Protocol);
# size 170х270х50 mm
# power 12 V, 0,3 А.
# 8" TFT LCD option
# LVDS or SCSI option
# FC option
# 4:4:4 option
# OEM
# Pocket PC control option

info from theme "HD-SDI Recorder: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=52964

Quote:

base model have 20GB on board, 3min in HD or 6min with LS codec.
also 40GB, 80, or 160GB models possible too.HDSDI IN/OUT, 8" TFT LCD option. price from $4800 USD

Flash DVR with Aja component-to-hdsdi convertor for JVC HD100 much better
and portable solution than Wafian recorder, imo.

Peter Ferling · November 21st, 2006, 02:39 PM

Well, something needs to give... I tried the HVX route, and gave up on swapping cards (it's not a realtime 1:1 copy either). I wound up dragging my dual xeon workstation, LCD monitor and keyboard out and used Edius 4.0. Even my internal scsi raid 0 gave fits on a few captures, requiring restarts. I had to endure a long post converting the files over to cineform and using two raids. One to hold the raws and the other to save the conformed. What a mess, (see attached image).

I just like something better than HDV, 10bit and clean enough to pull a key without picking up the garbage matte tool and dragging points.

I may just build a shoebox PC with small raid, Xena PCIe card/cineform solution and drag that around.

Brian Longley · November 21st, 2006, 02:52 PM

Only option currently, the Grass Valley Turbo DDR's. Faster, but pretty expensive.
I have quite a few clients doing HD/SDI out from the Canon XL H1 to MacPro's and G5's with the AJA and Blackmagic cards, fibre channel raids to handle the input of data at that rate. They report great results, but they are hardly portable, and require AC. This seems to be the only interim solution that allows uncompressed capture other than a deck. But that still allows you studio work with a complete camera and editing system for less than the cost of a tape deck that would handle that signal.

when I know more, I sure will post it.

Kevin Shaw · November 21st, 2006, 03:57 PM

Maybe this is a silly idea, but what if Apple got together with an HD capture card maker and Cineform to build a laptop with HD-SDI ingest capability? I'd bet that's technically feasible today with a little creative engineering...

Stuart Brontman · November 21st, 2006, 04:10 PM

I agree. That's a great idea.

I'm trying to put something together for laptop capture of HD-SDI, using a PCI adapter card and some Caldigit drives. Then I've got to figure out how to get Prospect HD ingest to work with this setup. It sure would be easier if someone would just create one. The demand would be there. When all is said and done, this solution may not work due to limitations of the laptop when connected to the Xena LH card...

Brian Longley · November 21st, 2006, 04:15 PM

tooooooo big.

trying to find something portable, and preferably that will mount on the rear bracket. Also, DC powered.

Peter Ferling · November 22nd, 2006, 08:46 AM

At least with a shoeboxed side recorder, it can be one piece and mounted to a cross-bar on a tripod directly beneath. Then only one power cable to wrangle. Not ideal if your following a shot, but manageable for short runs or fixed. A shoebox sized PC will allow a full size capture card and two or three disk array. Essentially it's full powered workstation and can be used for field editing, and with a dual processor mobo, a better option vs a laptop.

Mike Schrengohst · November 22nd, 2006, 11:47 AM

Look at this companies recorders...
Probably expensive....

http://www.keisoku.co.jp/en/product/...r5e/index.html

Peter Ferling · November 22nd, 2006, 12:49 PM

These are worth a look, bare bones shuttles:

http://sys.us.shuttle.com/Scgsupport/NewProducts.htm

Run about $500. Spend another $2k in graphics, capture card and hard drives. Much cheaper, and more than just capture solution as it's a portable edit station. Hmmmm.

Think I'll try this out, it's worth a shot.

Stuart Brontman · November 22nd, 2006, 01:04 PM

Hi Peter,

These mini-PCs look very promising for a reasonably portable solution. What type of solution are you looking at for the actual capture of the HD-SDI signal? In other words, are you looking at Prospect HD ingest, or just straight, uncompressed HD? I'm trying to figure out a way to convert the HD-SDI stream to smaller file sizes without HDV compression. Prospect HD ingest is $3000! Not what I'd call a reasonavble priced solution.

Also, have a look at Caldigit's new drives. I spoke to them about this type of solution. They were apparently behind the design of G-RAID's drives.

Stuart

Peter Ferling · November 22nd, 2006, 01:18 PM

Actually, I'm solving two solutions. I'm thinking about a cineform-prospect intermediate solution with a xena card. Since I already edit with PPro, this will fit in with my existing workflow. Having a full raster 10bit avi, but at cineforms compression will allow me to use a small array (I think), and is a better compromised over raw uncompressed.

The other point is having a small, portable workstation on hand. So, back at the hotel or for extended stays, I can setup shop and edit away. No sense in wasting real-estate. I can find room in one of the pelicans for LCD and keyboard.

Sure, I could get a $5K box that just records, then I'd have hook it up a laptop for editing, and a decent one that will do the job is around $3500.

Maybe it's more like $3500 all said an done. But cheaper and more useful still.

Maybe someone from Cineform would like to chime in.

Stuart Brontman · November 22nd, 2006, 01:25 PM

I'm in the same boat as you. It would be great to have the little box for grabbing the HD-SDI output AND being able to do some editing in the evening. I'll need to take a closer look at Cineform's software. I'm using PPro 2 as well, along with the rest of the suite. I'd love to avoid the $3000 for Prospect HD ingest and just convert to Cineform avi files after capturing the uncompressed footage (with their less expensive software). I don't know enough about their software to know if the cheaper versions will convert uncompressed HD. With a 1.5TB Caldigit SATA RAID, I'll have the room to capture and convert.

By the way, what camera are you using? Since I'm still waiting for the contract on the HD production, I have not bought yet. I'm leaning heavily towards the XL H1 and/or the G1. The HD-SDI capture might be the finalizing factor. This will be corporate work, so 60i should be fine.

Peter Ferling · November 22nd, 2006, 01:43 PM

I'm getting a G1 for the HDSDI (for those jobs that need). But I won't be capturing via SDI for every job -overkill. So firewire and cineform would do.

As a side note, I watched a demo of the Newtek Tricaster. They also use a shoebox/shuttle PC and house a full sized VideoToaster card in it, and use a limited version of their software to capture SD material. The benefit was a larger housing for the full sized card, better heat sinks and fans, and a mobo that can accept a more robust processor. I think you can dual processor boards now -which rules out laptops.

I have a long weekend and a lot of turkey sandwitches to pour over the details. I might be able to build one from tiger direct, or modify a base unit to suit.

November 15th, 2005, 07:56 PM	#16
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	Wafian just got some pics up on their website of the HR-1 cineform compressed HD-SDI recorder. Great as a field deck but seems more like a computer in a nice box with an lcd than anything. However, it is closer to a price more people would be willing to explore (15k) but is definetly suited only for studio or a powered set location. Definetly cheaper than HD-CAM or HD-CAM SR, but not really as portable. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

November 15th, 2005, 09:02 PM	#17
Brian Longley Sponsor: Zotz Digital Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 22	portable drive recorder for XL H1 I have talked with Dave at Cineform. I am looking forward to seeing the product. Chris and I talked about the likely hood of being able to see everything by the NAB show, maybe even all in a row! That would great. HDV should be well rounded by then. I hope you weren't really hit by a yukon? yikes. brian __________________ brian@zotzdigital.com http://www.zotzdigital.com 888-577-9689

November 21st, 2006, 02:39 PM	#19
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Well, something needs to give... I tried the HVX route, and gave up on swapping cards (it's not a realtime 1:1 copy either). I wound up dragging my dual xeon workstation, LCD monitor and keyboard out and used Edius 4.0. Even my internal scsi raid 0 gave fits on a few captures, requiring restarts. I had to endure a long post converting the files over to cineform and using two raids. One to hold the raws and the other to save the conformed. What a mess, (see attached image). I just like something better than HDV, 10bit and clean enough to pull a key without picking up the garbage matte tool and dragging points. I may just build a shoebox PC with small raid, Xena PCIe card/cineform solution and drag that around. Attached Thumbnails

November 21st, 2006, 02:52 PM	#20
Brian Longley Sponsor: Zotz Digital Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 22	portable hard drive recorders Only option currently, the Grass Valley Turbo DDR's. Faster, but pretty expensive. I have quite a few clients doing HD/SDI out from the Canon XL H1 to MacPro's and G5's with the AJA and Blackmagic cards, fibre channel raids to handle the input of data at that rate. They report great results, but they are hardly portable, and require AC. This seems to be the only interim solution that allows uncompressed capture other than a deck. But that still allows you studio work with a complete camera and editing system for less than the cost of a tape deck that would handle that signal. when I know more, I sure will post it. __________________ brian@zotzdigital.com http://www.zotzdigital.com 888-577-9689

November 21st, 2006, 04:15 PM	#23
Brian Longley Sponsor: Zotz Digital Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 22	same tooooooo big. trying to find something portable, and preferably that will mount on the rear bracket. Also, DC powered. __________________ brian@zotzdigital.com http://www.zotzdigital.com 888-577-9689

November 21st, 2006, 03:57 PM	#21
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Maybe this is a silly idea, but what if Apple got together with an HD capture card maker and Cineform to build a laptop with HD-SDI ingest capability? I'd bet that's technically feasible today with a little creative engineering...

November 21st, 2006, 04:10 PM	#22
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	I agree. That's a great idea. I'm trying to put something together for laptop capture of HD-SDI, using a PCI adapter card and some Caldigit drives. Then I've got to figure out how to get Prospect HD ingest to work with this setup. It sure would be easier if someone would just create one. The demand would be there. When all is said and done, this solution may not work due to limitations of the laptop when connected to the Xena LH card...

November 22nd, 2006, 08:46 AM	#24
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	At least with a shoeboxed side recorder, it can be one piece and mounted to a cross-bar on a tripod directly beneath. Then only one power cable to wrangle. Not ideal if your following a shot, but manageable for short runs or fixed. A shoebox sized PC will allow a full size capture card and two or three disk array. Essentially it's full powered workstation and can be used for field editing, and with a dual processor mobo, a better option vs a laptop.

November 22nd, 2006, 11:47 AM	#25
Mike Schrengohst Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 355	Look at this companies recorders... Probably expensive.... http://www.keisoku.co.jp/en/product/...r5e/index.html __________________ Mike Schrengohst dvd.pro@verizon.net

November 22nd, 2006, 12:49 PM	#26
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	These are worth a look, bare bones shuttles: http://sys.us.shuttle.com/Scgsupport/NewProducts.htm Run about $500. Spend another $2k in graphics, capture card and hard drives. Much cheaper, and more than just capture solution as it's a portable edit station. Hmmmm. Think I'll try this out, it's worth a shot.

November 22nd, 2006, 01:04 PM	#27
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	Hi Peter, These mini-PCs look very promising for a reasonably portable solution. What type of solution are you looking at for the actual capture of the HD-SDI signal? In other words, are you looking at Prospect HD ingest, or just straight, uncompressed HD? I'm trying to figure out a way to convert the HD-SDI stream to smaller file sizes without HDV compression. Prospect HD ingest is $3000! Not what I'd call a reasonavble priced solution. Also, have a look at Caldigit's new drives. I spoke to them about this type of solution. They were apparently behind the design of G-RAID's drives. Stuart

November 22nd, 2006, 01:18 PM	#28
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Actually, I'm solving two solutions. I'm thinking about a cineform-prospect intermediate solution with a xena card. Since I already edit with PPro, this will fit in with my existing workflow. Having a full raster 10bit avi, but at cineforms compression will allow me to use a small array (I think), and is a better compromised over raw uncompressed. The other point is having a small, portable workstation on hand. So, back at the hotel or for extended stays, I can setup shop and edit away. No sense in wasting real-estate. I can find room in one of the pelicans for LCD and keyboard. Sure, I could get a $5K box that just records, then I'd have hook it up a laptop for editing, and a decent one that will do the job is around $3500. Maybe it's more like $3500 all said an done. But cheaper and more useful still. Maybe someone from Cineform would like to chime in.

November 22nd, 2006, 01:25 PM	#29
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	I'm in the same boat as you. It would be great to have the little box for grabbing the HD-SDI output AND being able to do some editing in the evening. I'll need to take a closer look at Cineform's software. I'm using PPro 2 as well, along with the rest of the suite. I'd love to avoid the $3000 for Prospect HD ingest and just convert to Cineform avi files after capturing the uncompressed footage (with their less expensive software). I don't know enough about their software to know if the cheaper versions will convert uncompressed HD. With a 1.5TB Caldigit SATA RAID, I'll have the room to capture and convert. By the way, what camera are you using? Since I'm still waiting for the contract on the HD production, I have not bought yet. I'm leaning heavily towards the XL H1 and/or the G1. The HD-SDI capture might be the finalizing factor. This will be corporate work, so 60i should be fine.

November 22nd, 2006, 01:43 PM	#30
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	I'm getting a G1 for the HDSDI (for those jobs that need). But I won't be capturing via SDI for every job -overkill. So firewire and cineform would do. As a side note, I watched a demo of the Newtek Tricaster. They also use a shoebox/shuttle PC and house a full sized VideoToaster card in it, and use a limited version of their software to capture SD material. The benefit was a larger housing for the full sized card, better heat sinks and fans, and a mobo that can accept a more robust processor. I think you can dual processor boards now -which rules out laptops. I have a long weekend and a lot of turkey sandwitches to pour over the details. I might be able to build one from tiger direct, or modify a base unit to suit.

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