Ya, Steve give us your thoughts in this area.

Avid has three families of products:

Xpress, Media Composer and Liquid. Which software are you referring to? Liquid uses SmartGOP splicing and I provided a white paper above that explains the process exactly. XpressPro does not have anything of the sort nor does MC. They transcode.

The claim was (last year) that XpressPro was going to get the Liquid HDV timeline integrated but now the rumour is that XpressPro will not make it past version 5.52 and then fazed out in favor of MC software and the Liquid line of products. This is only a rumour but I could see it as a possibility.

We'll see...

Me too. It also zips you right at the beginning of the timeline in FCP.
And that's exactly why there's oly one editor: Emacs! ;)

Text Editor Wars!

Steve, loved your "rant". Very amusing.

It wasn't that arbitrary. We are talking about the "dark ages", terminals were relatively new and programming techniques were not nearly as sophisticated as thery are today. On top of that you add that mini computers and mainframes had a fraction of the RAM we have today. Modes were designed to be able to keep track of what the user was doing without bringing the whole system down with endless cycles of checking where the cursor was. Machines like the IBM S/34 didn't even have a "free form" filing system. Every file was stored as a database with a fixed "row length"

Still need it to go to a new line. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna use it right...now!

The Mac "Delete" button is equivalent to the PC's backspace (delete the character to the left of the cursor). On a Powerbook you can use the combination fn+Delete to delete the character to the right of the cursor.
I have Left and Right button on my Powerbook.

BTW, you want to talk about useless buttons? What about the "Scroll Lock" on a PC. Even with Lotus 1-2-3, in the DOS days, I never used it. Time to yank it out!

Take care.

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.

HA! But I still vote for its removal because of all the times in my life I pressed it just to see the little light turn on.

P.S. Wouldn't it be more simple to just press the Scroll Lock...Or does it actually have a regular function?

That's the only program I ever heard making use of the Scroll Lock and the reason is that that key is absolutely ignored by anything else :)!

The first thing every HVX owner seems to do is get an external monitor. So much for "portable", and run and gun at that point.

The HVX focus IS what drove me crazy. That and the video noise in the lower midtones.

When I say specular I'm just talking about the very specular glint off chrome and glass etc. but not typical highlight areas. I think the HD-100 rolls into overexposure better and captures more detail in the highlight areas - so we agree (I think).

On the shadow side of the equation it ain't even close. The HD-100 grabs more detail, is smooth into the blacks, displays less noise, is more light sensitive than HVX from my tests. I set up some low light side by side stuff and though it doesn't make sense based on the numbers I could swear the HD-100 was 2 stops faster just looking at a monitor. HVX'ers often light a little hot to avoid noise whereas with the HD-100 you can just light it normally and be fine - so the end result is a pretty big difference.

I wasn't clear about HOME. I know what it does, but why was it named Home. Start or Beginning, or Top make sense.

I've found a new term in Liquid. You can "fuse" a clip. I haven't looked it up, but I'm having fun trying to imagine why Germans picked this term.

The German designers of the Casablanca NLE insisted in not changing the name of the Chroma Key Effect. They called it a BlueBox! Seems they never heard a blue box was used to make free phone calls.

One last rant. Watch any of the CSI or Law and Order. Watch Deadwood, Big Love, Supranos, etc. How many image tracks would you need to cut one of these shows? How many transition FX? Would you need a Transition FX editor? Would you need PIP? Would you bezier curves?

In short, would you need much of anything provided in today's bloated video NLEs?

What would you need? And, are there NLE's that are missing these functions yet provide what you don't need? Why are we buying these products? Is FCP really what we want? Is Avid?

And, unfortunately, Canopus took a great NLE, StormEdit, and turned it into a fancy Video editor.

Lastly, what NLEs provide the high-quality tools to place SD into HD?

My point is that our tools were designed decades ago for off-line film or snazzy video (ie, commercials -- the things we skip when we watch on a Tivo). Their GUI and toolsets are not what we need in a today's 24p HD world.

No one seems to support narrative 24p editing.

I checked the Canopus forums and it looks like HD100 owners are having trouble capturing footage from the camera in Edius. Someone provided a link to the following info from JVC about making sure you get the correct firewire driver installed, which may help:

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/getResource2...rs.pdf?id=6129

Steve, you and Paolo make some good points. Except for dedicated Avid systems (Thunder, Composer, etc.) the editing side has not kept up with the hardware side that's for sure (and even then, those Avid system are clunky with DV sources -- even worse with Blu-ray).

So, does that mean I won't be able to bring my HD footage into my Morrow CP/M?

I'm sure XpressPro has already lost the war to FCP and is likely to loose even more now that Adobe has Studio -- it does seem Avid might realize the Xpress GUI is simply never going to make Premiere or FCP editors happy while equally frustrating Composer editors. That's a lose, lose, lose, lose proposition for them.

Much smarter to keep the software Composer at $3000-$4000 ($5000 is crazy IMHO and I think they'll keep seeing sales go to FCP if they don't drop it -- soon. In fact, they may get very few sales at $5000.)

Then use Liquid to go after FCP and Premiere. Liquid is more powerful than either, but Avid needs to de-Germanize it plus support auto HD Timeline to SD DVD conversion, and add HD Timeline to Blu-ray burning.

I found another new Liquid term. One uses a "Clip" FX (which is really a "filter") for clip "alienation." Anyone want to guess what this means? (And, no it doesn't mean creating a depressed looking clip.)

I even found, in the "Avid" manual a reference to the TARGA board. Clearly, Avid never bothered to even edit the manual. They just changed "Pinnacle" to "Avid." And, worse, they don't ship the vital Reference Manual with Liquid.

New documentation is critical -- the two chapters on FX are muddled to say the least. Plus, you can see any detail in the screenshots!

this is a great thread. very informative.

thanks guys.

It was hijacked from me and turned into a all-purpose thread!

just kidding, all good stuff!

but I still don't know what I want, lol

-burk

4:2:2 on the JVC?
 

Hi guys,

About to take the plunge myself and still trying to choose between the JVC and the Panasonic. I am "an editor" more than videographer, and while this will have to be an all-purpose camera until we get enough revenue to justify a second (maybe a RED? :)), I will probably use it equally for greenscreen work as for documentary-style work (for which I'll likely get an M2 adapter).

I've done some greenscreen work with standard-def DV, and it ain't fun. I know the codec used by the HD100 and its successors is better by leaps and bounds, but how much better? I also heard someone mention that you can run analog cables out the back for a live 4:2:2 capture, but could anyone elaborate on the details of this setup?

My NLE is Final Cut, and I don't think we can set up the whole workstation in the greenscreen studio, so I'm wondering about MacBook Pros -- are there any cards available for the MBP that would work for this purpose?

Or, alternately, should I just go for the HVX? The CinePorter (if it passes muster upon release) pretty much knocks out the cost issues of the P2 system, and I could get a Spider Brace or other shoulder mount to help the form factor. Also, since I plan to get an M2, the interchangeable lens feature of the JVC doesn't help much (and until someone makes a relay lens, it's actually a hindrance). So I just don't know...

Any help/advice is appreciated!

In your case I'd probably lean toward the HVX unless the HD-100 has gotten easier to edit in FCP recently. With the HD-100 you pretty much have to convert to the Cineform intermediate codec, but once you've done that you're in a great codec. It's PC only the last time I checked.

I've actually owned both cameras and I preferred the usability and picture of the HD-100 so that's the one I kept and I adapted my editing software to suit the camera. I have the Micro35 and I think it's easier to shoot with the HD-100 due to it's being a better low light performer... but it is long. The HVX is fat though, so it's 6 of one and half dozen of the other really.

As far as greenscreen, it's probably a toss up. The HVX is noisier so that mucks up keying a little bit. The HD-100 has more resolution which translates to more edge detail (good) but you also do get some edge jaggies due to HDV recording. Those can be smoothed in post if you know what you're doing and you can pull a good key, but it's a little extra work. The HVX is smooth on the edges, but noisier shadows might mean more work.

The best keying would probably be an HD-100 via component to Cineform capture at 4:2:2 - but that adds about $3k and it's PC only.

Good keying depends a lot on the person / software doing the keying. I've seen F950 plates at 4:4:4 that people can't pull a very good key from because keying isn't really point and click even with Keylight or Primatte - which are very good keyers.

If you can test both cameras that's your best option.

Thanks for the prompt reply!

Not yet, but an update is supposed to be in the pipeline -- imminent, even -- that lets FCP support 24p, so that's not a huge issue.

I'm surprised to hear that, actually. I would have guessed the HVX was much better for green screen work due to the DVCPRO codec (and that maybe even the lower pixel density on the 1/3" chip would translate to less noise).

That's the solution I'm looking for ('cept I'd want to stick with FCP once the update hits), but I would need a component card for a MacBook Pro's ExpressCard slot, which I don't think exist yet.

Thanks again for your advice. The cameras were neck and neck, but the HD100 (or 110, or 200 if I can wait that long) may be inching ahead. :)