Decisions -- JVC HD100 or Panasonic HVX200?
 

nevermind...

ARRGGHH! decisions!? JVC or HVX!?!?!
 

Ive been a lurker(seldom poster) on these boards for a couple of months. Trying to gather as much info as I can about which HD camera to buy. I havent had any hands on time with either, and there is no where in my area(Va Beach, VA) that rents. From what I understand the, the JVCHD100 has a slightly higher res image, so that is a very attractive plus. The Panny, though, has more veratility with framerates and speed effects. The smmoth slow-mo is a very desirable feature for filming surfing. I do surf videography and event videography(weddings, grads, etc...) The HDV format seems like a less fussy format to work with(I use Sony Vegas and Connect HD) But as the P2 card system of the HVX200 becomes more affordable in the coming years, the "no tape" solution seems irresistable. Right now the panasonic, seems to be a little out of my price range after cards, hard drive, etc...

I know its hard to get unbiased advice from posting on a dedicated JVC board, so I also posting this on the Panasonic board. I hope that doesnt conflict with any terms of use with these boards.

Anyway, some advice from people with experience with one or both of these cams would be greatly appreciated! thx guys!

-burk

Burk,

If having variable frame rates is important to you (60p mostly for slow mo) then the HVX would be the choice, but as you pointed out there are still issues with the P2 only workflow and other drawbacks to the camera.

The HD100 is what I own and after much research it was the better choice. It's just setup like cameras I've used in the past (it's not a "palm" camera), has true 720p resolution straight to tape (or hard drive), no pixel shifting mojo, etc.

BUT....If you can wait tell later in the year when the HD200 is released, you can have the 60p frame rate and all the other benefits of the HD100. In fact the new mpeg hardware in the HD200 looks very good. At NAB they had D5 HD material being convereted on the fly with this mpeg encoder and shown right next to the original material and it was very hard to see the difference so that is something to think about.

thanks for the quick reply Tim. The HD200 sounds interesting. Any indication of what kind of price it will debut at? Are there any other features tht are worth noting about the cam that you know of right now? If that camera releases at a decent price, that might be the way to go.

thx man!

-burk

Hi Jason.
What kidn of answer you expect from this forum? ;)
Seriously, when I considered the two cameras the HD100 seemed a no-brainer to me. The decision factors:

- True HD resolution. The Panasonic has a smaller sensor: 960 pixels. The HD100 delivers full 1280x720.
- Removable lens. More flexibility.
- Tape transport. When you need portability an inexpensive miniDV tape that you can carry around is a plus. The P2 might go donw in price but how much? And how soon? Price reduction is just speculation. I want to use the camera now. I can grab my HD100, hit the road with a box of tapes and I don't have to worry. I can still record excellent images.
- Overall ergonomics.
- True manual lens. Zoom and focus controls can be measured and used for repeatable performance. The Panasonic has a servo focus ring. This is, for me, a deal breaker.

Of course, all depends on the intended application. What is a no-no for me might be a non issue for you.

Good luck.

I knew there would be some bias, but from what Ive seen, most people give each cam credit where credit is due.

The removable lens thing brings up another question:

I am considering buying an M2 adapter for whatever camera I get. We might try some scripted work, so I would like to be able to get some nice shallow DOF. How does pannys fixed lens system differ from JVC's bayonet mount system in regards to this? Is is easier to mount with JVC?

Hey, I was going to write that. Paolo stole my post. =(

As usual, Paolo hit the ball out of the park. These are things that I not only looked at but were deciding factors in our selection of JVC of which we then purchased 6. We did side-by-side comparisons of all four sub-$10k cameras and the deciding factor for my company was lens interchangability, true 24 and workflow. Everyones all a twitter (don't ask me where that word came from!!!) about the possibility that JVC bites the dust. What's the worst thing that can happen; a hybrid HVX and GY 100 HD? I got a picture sent to me of just that and posted a note here that the Matsushita may be merging the two companies. Then I got responses asking me if I was kidding. Alas, on further inquiry, the photo was a hoax as I suspected which is why I didn't post the picture. But you know what? It might not be such a bad idea. I'd love to see the best of the Panasonic and the GY 100 or 250, which is little more than balsawood vaporware at this point, come together to form a real camera. Why they didn't do it before is beyond me but for me, if you took the two and put them together you'd have one heck of a sub-$10 camera. Of course I'd like to see a few people from JVC dissolve as well to be replaced with Panasonic's best and brightest who know what integrity is but that's not going to happen either.

Sorry, forgot. As for the M2 thing, e-mail them directly and ask. I haven't met them but they're pretty smart fellows to bring the idea this far in the face of P&S Technix blowing them off and then having to come back and ask how they did that. Brian, James Hurd and Taylor I believe are at CineGear but as I said, e-mail them and I know they can answer that q.

thanks jonathan, and paolo. Its funny, I posted this exact same thread on the panny board, and nothing. JVC is coming into focus as the way to go.

we'll see!

-burk

Sorry Stephen :)
Draw!

You'll find that here, good or bad, you'll have everyone's best shot supported by evidence and not conjecture driven by blind allegiance. There are reasons we selected this particular camera and there are up and down sides to it like everything else. But on the whole, with the right education and understanding of the processes inherent in DV and HDV, you'll have better results with the JVC in most all circumstances than with the other cameras. Whether or not the same holds true for the 200 and 250 remains to be seen. It's why I believe Steven Mullen's book is so important and if you have a chance, you should pick one up irrespective iof what camera you have and especially if you're shooting the JVC. Colorspace and compression are the principle issues one must understand, along of course with light, to get what you see in your mind through image capture and editing and out onto the screen accurately and his treatment of these subjects is excellent.

for your needs - HVX! (Since u shoot surfers and water sports)
- HVX has great slowmo
- HVX uses DVCPROHD - HDV codec will/might break when it sees waves and water :)
- HVX lens has auto focus and stability control

for my needs I choose HD100...

What did you decide? I feel a bit like you...

At least consider that the HVX is significantly more expensive than the HD100 once you factor in p2 cards.

Also consider that the hvx has short record times and archiving issues.

But the hvx is much more versatile and has better codec.

Also consider the short throw of the zoom on the hvx.
At 70 meters (around 200') it's about 1:1 with normal vision no bigger. Sure you can add on a Century but then you lose full zoom capabilty for starting wide.

Very tricky choices - I sympathise totally with you - I'm dealing with the same issues.

JVC - HVX - JVC - HVX ....

I was in this boat a few weeks ago and sided with the HD100. I love the camera, but I think I made the wrong choice because of what I was looking for.

I bought it because of Resolution, better Focus Assist, better Cosmetics (Ie. shoulder mount, and better button placement), and I saw many tests that looked good. Plus the DP of 24 put his name behind it. I also thought that interchangable lenses were something I need, but I was wrong because I really wont be buying any, and if I do, I will but the M2 adapter and Prime Lense which also is sold for the HVX 200.

I am seriously considering selling mine for a HVX200 once my Anton Bauer Battery Promotion comes in.

I am looking to really only do Indie Movies, and I really want the P2 workflow. I was considering the Firestore for the JVC, but once in that price range the P2 is about the same, minus the archiving.

That said, I have had no problems editing HDV in native or AIC form on my FCP system which runs on a G4 1.33 Powerbook. Once 720/24P support is released I am sure it will be the same.

I spent hours looking into this debate and I think I made the wrong choice. I am really pissed at myself. I really don't know what to do, so we will see.

In conclusion the HD100 is a incredible camera but I think it is better suited for a wedding videographer, or more on location stuff, especailly since it comes with the Anton Bauer System now. There are many benefits to the camera that I will miss, like the focus assist and manuel lense, but for me I really want the P2 and Codec.

Also remember that the HD100 has a HDV-60PSD and HDV-50PSD mode that can be upressed very nicely for Overcranked slo-mo.

Sorry about the long post, but I was up most of last night kicking myself over this and I am not sure what to do. I love the HD100, but if I can get the HVX with only a minimal loss, I may do it.

thx guys
 

ARGHHHH!!!lol, tough choices. I almost had my mind made up. but whenever you hear somebody say "im kicking myself" it always brings pause.

I think I'll be able to figure it out soon. I appreciate all the responses, and Ill let you guys know as soon as I make a purchase. plus, maybe upload some sick surfing footage! thx guys for all the input!

-burk

Hey Steve, really feel for you, bummer.
cheers, r

DVCPRO HD as a better Codec is 100% false.

The 6 GOP JVC version of HDV is much different than normal HDV. It's also much more effecient than DVCPRO HD. Also keep in mind that a codec is just a way of storing what it "sees". Encoding a bad image is still a bad image, no matter how good the encoding is.

Also, If you are going to be on a beach and you need a large zoom to get in close on surfers then the fixed lens system is not such a good choice.

I really believe it's really a matter of P2 verses tape.

As far as codecs, they both have their problems.

The JVC may have occasional motion artifacts . The HVX can have compression artifacts that reside in low levels and make it hard to correct levels in post. I've seen this first hand. Joel (dvinfo user) switched from the HVX200 to the HD100. We ran side-by-side comparisons with both of these cameras.

I'm really going to celebrate the day someone comes up with a decent internal codec with these sub 10K cameras.

I've played with them both and walked away from the HVX.
I really like the concept of the HVX, but right now P2 is extremely expensive.

Also, I really like the pro look and manual control the HD100 offers. The HVX
aperture settings are electronic hard stops, while the JVC offers a continuous aperture from close to full open.

Also, having the ability to change your lens...
If you can justify the 13.5X lens, the image quality is superb.

Steve

Not to throw salt on the popcorn if you will excuse the pun but if you're indeed shooting sports, then the JVC should be your choice for the same reasons it was mine. One of our network shows is Cowboy Mounted Shooting and these riders are averaging 40 MPH+ on horseback, firing authentic 45s, changing direction on a dime and covering a course that measures 325' X 150'. That's alot of action over alot of real estate and, with all due respect and I mean that sincerely, it's much more demanding than surfing. I selected the JVC's 720p for the same reasons MNF did and 60p @ 4:2:2 out the rear ports for slo-mo capability and green screen. I needed lens interchangable because of the long throw down field and the short throw in the color booth. I'm using 6 cameras on the field and four in the booth and I have to tell you, not one of my guys has ever missed a shot and the chroma and slo-mo in editing is fantastic. We used these cameras during the first month of 2nd Unit to show that broadcast quality could be had on sub-$10k cameras and debuted it at NAB to great reviews. The results were exactkly what we were looking for so, although I like some of the aspects of the HVX, the JVC for sports is the only camera I'd choose and did choose when my budget allowed for anything. Again, JVC has its issues but IMHO, there's no other comp for sports and I'll never be able to thank Mike Pellagatti enough for his wisdom in pointing me in the right direction.
J

Hey Jonathon - how are you coming out of the camera's ?
Your answers may well tip the balance for me. (don't want to put you on the spot, tho' ... lol)

Presume analogue @ 4:2:2, converted sdi > mixer > deck > and/or to disc ?
Which lenses do you use ?

tia, Rob

4:2:2 out the back to the AJAs, then to an rs-equipped deck in single and through a switcher for multi. I haven't shaken hands with Premiere's multi-cam capabilities yet so it's the conventional way for now. From there is goes directly to the disk array through Premiere with the downside being that we have to start the computer's disk recording by manually clicking the "record" button on Premiere and then start the cameras feed to it. I'm hoping that, in the not-too-distant future, NLE Systems, our tech company whio's building our new Axios with MAtrox and Adobe, will be able to solve that with an auto-sensing code for Premiere such that when one camera goes live, Premiere starts recording. Since we notified Adobe that they were our editing system of choice for 2nd Unit, they've been incredible as a sponsor of the site and it's scheduled 13 shows. We've commited to doing two complete 1-hour shows on 2nd Unit dedicated to editing on the Premiere system in the expectation that most of the DBVInfo members as well as those of DVXUser and CML will benefit by having questions just like yours not only answered but shown live by experts in the field, in this instance, Brian Maffitt, the guru at Adobe. The live site debuts on the 21st, I think, with ASC's George Dibie and Lite Panels Jaime Emmanuelli and I believe capture to edit is about the 3rd or 4th weeks show. As for lenses, we're still using the conventional Fujinons but beiong extremely careful to avoid CA and breathing whioch is fairly straightforward. I know I'll probably hear disagreement but for the price they're really quite good IF you know and respect their limitations. I'm not putting alot of money into lenses right now until I see how the M2 thing shakes out. My understanding is that Taylor, Brian and James are all back on track now with each of them understanding what a great opportunity the have, through a great product, to help the independent filmmaking communiuty through the M2. Taylor will be at CineGear under cointract to Redrock and I'm waiting to see what that relationship yields before investing in a permanent lens solution. Remember, I have 6 cameras to buy for and if what I saw Taylor do with the M2 become solid which I hear it will, then I'll settle on three new sets of primes for in-house and rent the other three sets as needed. SOmething in the 20s and 30s, something in the 50s and something in the 70s and 802 with a 135 would be ideal. I'm borrowing a 22, 50 and 75 Nikon I think right now bgut I can't recall. But with the vast majority of our work in the sporting venue, telephoto with deep DOF is the name of the game for us right now. But in the color comm booth and the commercials we have in the hopper it's another story which is why I like the Redrock.

Please, as always, forgive the misspellings. I have ham-size hands and fingers and time is prescious so I'll be happy when DVInfo gets spell check unless it's already here and I'm missing it which, not being the sharpest pencil in the cup, is probable!

EDIT: Also, Tim just told me have 3 of the Fujinon 20 BREMs (sp!) that he loves but those are expensive chunks of glass. If you need the numbers, I'll get them and post them for you. They really are quite good.

Hey - oyuore thpellings just fine !
I've got a ham shaped tongue so forgive me if thpit all over you :-)

Thanks for that.
I'm going to trial it all next week - prolly opt to go for a lens solution straightaway (which IS A BIG negotiating point for me) - similar to you, I run anywhere from 3-5 cams.

Ironic, tho' - don't need the back half of the camera, don't want the bundled front bit - just the bit in the middle.

Prolly end up buying 1 hvx, as well. We'll see ...

thanks again. I appreciate it.
cheers,r

Good luck to you. If there's anything else, everyone here's always ready to help.

.

The JVC is using a full pixel count across the blocks, the HVX200 is not.

This is the most attractive feature of the HVX200, and also the least desirable. If you get a hit on a tape (in HD), you are going to lose a few frames, but if you get a corrupted card error (I have), you are SOL. A very important consideration when "failure is not an option".

All the new sub 10K HD cams are pretty impressive. It really depends on your shooting needs (do you need interchangeable lenses, real full manual cam and lens control, etc.)?

Since the best option in making an informed decision (actual hands-on tests) is not open to you, try and see some actual output footage shot with both cams (on a good 16:9 monitor), but remember, the skill of the shooter (and DP) can sharply influence the final output to favor one cam or the other.

Something else you should take into consideration is the form and design factors. I had a couple of HVX200 cams with me on a European shoot recently (for use as "tape ups" and table cams), and when I handed the cam to one of the French crew members working with us (all broadcast cam savvy pros), he had a hard time with the control layout ("Who designed this, an aircraft cockpit engineer?"). In fast action shooting, that would be an important consideration to me, it might be for you also.

In comparing all the new sub 10K cams, one thing has always stood out for me even before putting lots of hours on all of them. They all have one thing in common excepting the HD100. They are all built on a previous model or design form factor (bigger and fatter, but still the same basic form factor). The HD100 is the only camera in sub 10K class that has no form factor ancestor. It is a completely new design/form factor from the ground up. JVC started with a clean slate with the HD100 (and it shows).

While some may argue that building on a proven design makes the cam less likely to have bugs or design faults, my philosophy is, that you can't build a better mouse trap by just adding varnish to the wood of an existing one.

My two 'pence worth.

To Jason: As I said before, both cameras are great, but it is a matter of which is better for you. I should have been more concerned with P2/Codec/Audio/Under-OverCranking, but I loved the JVC for its Focus Assist, Higher True 1280/720P Resolution, Professional Setup, Shoulder Mount, Detachable Lense, etc.

If I was going to be doing Documentary work in any way, the JVC seems to be the clear choice.

I primarly want to be a Editor though, and from that frame of mind I like the whole concept of the P2 and the DVCPRO HD Codec.

This is a very tough choice to make, especially after buying one of the cameras. Take your time.

There is a test that Barry Green ran over at DVXUSER that shows the flaws of HDV albeit only when explosions are involved. I am not sure if I am allowed to post it or not here, so email me if you want the link (kingsreign2003@aol.com)

There is also a test that shows more real world shots (I have the link for that as well) that easily puts the HD100 on top, which is really one of the tests that led to my decision. Also, the 24 shootout put the HD100 on top, and the DV shootout didn't pick one, but the JVC kept suprising everyone by how well it performed.

I wish you the best of luck.

Which camera
 

I went through months of procrastinating about which camera in the HDV category before settling on the HD-101E. It was more a case of why I didn't purchase the others. I've worked with film and video for +30 years and I personally find the Sony Z1P too fiddly with it's menus and little switches and dials , and service back up? it's only ever been adequate (I'm on my fourth Sony Broadcast camera) and I've been waiting 6 months for a repair to a monitor out of my edit suite! The Z1P camera is however the least expensive and has a good reliable work flow in post. For a while I thought the Canon would be the go but what were they thinking of with 24f? Not to mention a viewfinder that doesn't show all the image, I shoot a lot of drama and don't want to find out there's boom in the top of frame in the edit suite. They're also the most expensive in this range but they do deliver the best resolution and offer HD-SDI out. The Panasonic should have been the solution, I shoot with the Varicam a lot and love the SDX 900 and the DVX 100 was very easy to use and nice pics too, but the resolution is the poorest in this group and a non interchangeable lens leaves it a little in the "handycam" category. Perhaps it's a little too early in it's developemnet for P2 technology, how are you going to shoot all that material at surf events or weddings and handle all the downloading to hard drive between cards, and shooting to tape you can only record SDV.
So I settled on JVC. It's much like the broadcast cameras in useability. I can record direct to the onboard DR-HD100 hard drive in any format. I can interchange lenses and use the 1/2" or 2/3" broadcast lenses with an adaptor. I can use it's standard lens on my steadicam with a wireless focus system. You can't do this << http://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/steadicam_flyer.html >> on any of the other cameras in this class. Finally when we did have a small problem a quick phone call to JVC revealed we needed a software upgrade and if I came in they'd do it while I waited.
Comes down to useability and service that suits my particular style and needs I guess.

Hey Phil or Jonathan - can you compare the downconverted sd image from the 100 to anything in the sd broadcast camera world ?

Is it like a DSR570, or Sdx 900 ? Better, worse - same, similar?
I've never seen a side by side of the images - so very, very curious.

Thanks in advance.

I must have read a zillion posts on hvx and hd100--this might be the most elegant. Great job!

One thing this thread hasn't emphasized though is archiving. I was never satisfied with HVX archival solutions, they were either too expensive or tech intensive. Much easier for me to get my thick head around a mini dv tape.

And Jon Ames...when was the last time a cowboy got attacked by a great white shark?

It's funny you should ask. I love golf (go figure, you'd think television made me crazy enough!) and we do alot with charity. I was playing Sherwood CC in LA's Thousand Oaks area with Greg Norman "The Shark" in our foursome and we were dollar for closest to this and lowest for that and, well, needless to say alot of my dollars went to charity... in fact, every one so I'd have to say in 2001 or 2002 I think was the last time!

Also, I've never seen them side by side either so I can't really answer that.
J

You come first, the camera last
 

Hi Jason,

I read your post prior to it being deleted. Believe me, all of us considering your choices have been there in one form or another and it can be highly frustrating indeed.

However, I have some general suggestions which should help you simplify the process of equipment choices, not just for the 2 cameras but any pro-equipment purchases:

- First, consider what you shoot and what your preferred workflow is. Are you shooting documentaries, events, movies, ENG, commercials... etc?

- What is your typical shooting environment; planned out shoots where you have control over timing, or are they "run and gun"?

- Do you have a production crew at all or are you a lone-wolf trying to do everything on your own?

- Do you have an existing NLE that you want to stick with or are you going to let your camera system help make that decision?

- Do you need interchangable lenses or control over focal length?

- Do you typically have time for the tape-capture process or do you need to speed things up with a tapeless workflow?

These are some basic questions which as you answer them will lead to others but it's a good place to start.

Some things to consider:

- The JVC is an ENG style body which means no autofocus. The HVX, H1 and Z1 all have autofocus.

- The JVC or Canon H1 would be easier to use with adapters like the M2 or Mini-35.

- The only native-tapeless systems are the Panasonic P2 or Sony XDCAM. Everything else would require either a Firestore or Cineporter (HVX only).

- The P2 system isn't optimized for run-and-gun - yet. When the Cineporter become available (and proven reliable and stable) that won't be the case.

- If color is your prime concern, the DV100 codec (DVCPRO-HD) is supeior to any iteration of HDV, period. See Adam Wilts site about the color differences.

- If you interface with any ENG or post houses that require raw, unedited footage the DVCPRO codec is again the clear winner since these service companies consider it a standard like Beta or DVCAM. HDV is not being used by any post or ENG house - that I'm aware of.

Lastly, don't become the dreaded "measurebator" when comparing cameras or systems. ANY HD/HDV system on the market is capable of producing amazing imagery, it all comes down to knowing HOW to use the system, not which specs out better.

Having the "best" equipment you can buy is meaningless if you don't have a solid understanding of lighting, color, composition and shooting techniques. Find the camera system that fits your needs first, worry about the tech specs last.

Thanks Robert, that was some of the best advice/guidelines to help me make my decision. Im going to decide very soon, and this will help greatly.

thx again

-burk

Excellent post Robert!

Indeed.....Now I am more happy about my new HVX200...

regards

I had the same choice myself. Honestly, you could go either way and be very happy with your choice.

Plan on spending at least another grand on accessories to get it production ready.

If i had it to go over again, i would probably go for the HVX. My JVC footage looks good, but is proving to be hell to edit. No native editing on the market, and my camera drops frames a lot which confuses all the translator software types. The fact that you have to translate the video at all is a pain in the ass. Where as, the HVX has files that are ready to edit out of the camera. Eh, I'm a little jaded having spent the last 4 days trying to salvage footage. Is it the tapes? Is it the camera? Who knows, but it's very frustrating!

The JVC's lens has major chromatic abbartion (sp?). Which is always the case with interchangeable lens cameras. The manufactures feel they're off the hook even though most will not buy a $14,000 lens. Bah.

The JVC is a good camera if you can get good clean footage laid down on tape.

-Just my opinion.
-aj

What tapes are you using and what is your NLE?

I starting using Sony DVM60 and Switched to Panny DVM63MQ after i noticed the 1st set of dropouts. Both have crazy amounts of drop outs. I'm working hard to get it into FCP.

That's part of the problem. Both have tape types listed have been known (especially the Panasonic Master tapes) to cause massive dropouts. You need to equip your camera with tapes it likes. I have used the JVC M-DV60DU tapes from the very beginning with narry a dropout.

FCP users have had their hearts broken over and over about 24p. 30p has been said to work without a hitch, however I've found that FCP and QT must be a certain versions in order for it to work flawlessly. You may want to investigate a Liquid 7.1 workstation in order to accomodate the ProHD workflow without a hitch in any framerate. If you own a production house it is money in the bank for the small investment in the workflow.