Backing up HD need to dub to HD tape?

Kevin Shaw · April 23rd, 2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Carter

Wow , this is news to me.
you are saying that this Sony tape that I bought (15 of) when I got my sony HD camorder

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

have no huge advantage over these, which I was just about to sell a bunch of on ebay:

http://www.supermediastore.com/maxel...nidv-tape.html.

In terms of your basic ability to record HDV, there is no difference whatsoever. The better tapes should (in theory) be more reliable in terms of fewer dropouts, but most people I know shooting HDV are not using special HDV tapes, just whatever they used for DV.

Chris Hurd · April 23rd, 2007, 07:13 PM

Tape is the single least expensive link in the entire production chain... so why not simply buy the best you can find? What kind of value are you assigning to your video... is your work worth only a $3 tape or is it worth more than that. Personally I wouldn't use anything less than the $15 tapes (and no I don't get a discount, I pay the same as everybody else).

The more expensive tapes are less prone to dropouts.

Kevin Carter · April 23rd, 2007, 07:30 PM

Chris, how do you reply to what Kevin is saying? have you done extensive a:b testing? it could be bunch of BS. I thought those expensive tapes were mandatory to achieve HD

Steven Gotz · April 23rd, 2007, 08:01 PM

Kevin Shaw is correct. The real value of the better tape is reliability. Keep in mind that a bad frame of DV is one bad frame. A bad frame in HDV could be 15 bad frames due to the 15 frame GOP.

I use the good tape. I don't worry that one day I might have voided my warranty or be told that I wore out heads using the wrong tape. I use the good tape because I shoot material that only happens once. I can not have a retake.

Andrew Kimery · April 23rd, 2007, 08:05 PM

Just to toss in my anecdotal 2 cents here...

Over the past few years I've seen several hundred hours of HDV footage shot on MiniDV tapes and only remember one drop out (which was most likely due to the camera owner/operate not keeping his camera clean, IMO). Many of those tapes were shot in the tropics under less than ideal conditions and shipped back to Los Angeles in zip lock bags (inside a padded box of course) and they didn't have any errors.

IMO the expensive "HDV" tapes are up there w/Monster Cables. On paper there may be a theoretical advantage, but in practice the gains are insignificant or non-existent.

As long as you use quality tape stock and keep your gear clean I wouldn't fret over drop outs.

-A

Ben Winter · April 23rd, 2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Tape is the single least expensive link in the entire production chain... so why not simply buy the best you can find? What kind of value are you assigning to your video... is your work worth only a $3 tape or is it worth more than that. Personally I wouldn't use anything less than the $15 tapes (and no I don't get a discount, I pay the same as everybody else).

The more expensive tapes are less prone to dropouts.

I agree, it's like people lining up at the gas station with the cheapest gas when it's 10 cents less than the one across the street, and then spend $8 on a cup of coffee.

$15 goes farther in confidence and quality if I want to reuse my nice Sony Master tapes, which of course I do. I'd have less confidence in the nth run-through of a $3 tape.

Kevin Shaw · April 24th, 2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Tape is the single least expensive link in the entire production chain... so why not simply buy the best you can find?

Because tape is a variable cost which can be controlled, and can make a significant difference in profit margin for those of us with budget-conscious customers. I've compared the $15 tapes to $3 tapes and found no functional difference for my purposes, so that's close to $100 difference per wedding (or other similar event) in my pocket. If I used the $15 tapes I'd have to raise my prices by about $100 per project, which for some customers will be the difference between getting their business and not getting it. I've never had a customer ask what kind of tape I use, but they all care about price.

In theory I agree with Chris' comment, but in practice it doesn't fit what my customers want, which is cost-effectiveness.

Ron Little · April 24th, 2007, 07:12 AM

Kevin I agree. I did a Greek wedding that took 16 tapes from multiple cams. $48 versus $240 off the quoted price big difference to my pocket. The tapes I buy at Sams come with three labels and I use all three. Once for the original raw footage twice for original raw footage and the third time to master finished movies. I have been doing this for years and haven’t had a problem yet. Doing it this way makes my tapes $1 per use. Not bad. Master tapes get stored away and 99% of the time never used again.

Kevin Carter · April 24th, 2007, 08:57 PM

thanks Andrew (also others), that's what my hunch would be, and the Monster cable anaogy puts it perfectly.

I assume, you are all, Ron included, talking about your experinces with shooting HD footage, I hope...

Ron Little · April 24th, 2007, 09:31 PM

Kevin I have two HDV cameras and use the maxell tapes. I figure if I do get a drop out I will use the B roll. If I am shooting with one camera I shoot some of the location for cover shots.

Marcus Marchesseault · April 25th, 2007, 02:14 AM

I have often found no relation between price and quality. I know that TDK actually makes the TDK tapes sold at Costco. Many companies just put a label on a product some asian manufacturer you have never heard of made. I like products that are made from a single company since the manufacturing process is less likely to change. Relabeled products are bought from the lowest bidder and tend to change suppliers more frequently.

Also, I heard about problems from some HDV-rated tapes early on so I see no reason to switch from something that is a known constant. Why pay $10 for something that may not be as reliable as the $3 product?

Kevin Carter · April 25th, 2007, 04:39 PM

also, how cricital is one dropout? How do you know it's a drop out, and it's the tapes fault.

Ron Little · April 25th, 2007, 10:27 PM

In HDV the drop out is pretty significant it last for an entire second. That doesn’t sound like much but when you see it, it looks bad.

Kevin Carter · May 6th, 2007, 11:57 AM

on end note to this subject guys, then when Apple calls a software Final Cut Express HD, there is nothing inherent in the software that makes it special for high def, correct?

I originally thought, that hey, they have HD in title of the software, hence you must have HD in titile of software to be able to work with HD video, but that's just a PR thing right? putting HD in title. Any, and all old FCP softwares can work with HD correct?

Kevin Carter · May 6th, 2007, 01:40 PM

on end note to this subject guys, then when Apple calls a software Final Cut Express HD, there is nothing inherent in the software that makes it special for high def, correct?

I originally thought, that hey, they have HD in title of the software, hence you must have HD in title of software to be able to work with HD video, but that's just a PR thing right? putting HD in title. Any, and all old FCP software’s can work with HD correct?

April 23rd, 2007, 07:13 PM	#32
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Tape is the single least expensive link in the entire production chain... so why not simply buy the best you can find? What kind of value are you assigning to your video... is your work worth only a $3 tape or is it worth more than that. Personally I wouldn't use anything less than the $15 tapes (and no I don't get a discount, I pay the same as everybody else). The more expensive tapes are less prone to dropouts. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 23rd, 2007, 08:01 PM	#34
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	Kevin Shaw is correct. The real value of the better tape is reliability. Keep in mind that a bad frame of DV is one bad frame. A bad frame in HDV could be 15 bad frames due to the 15 frame GOP. I use the good tape. I don't worry that one day I might have voided my warranty or be told that I wore out heads using the wrong tape. I use the good tape because I shoot material that only happens once. I can not have a retake. __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

April 23rd, 2007, 07:30 PM	#33
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	Chris, how do you reply to what Kevin is saying? have you done extensive a:b testing? it could be bunch of BS. I thought those expensive tapes were mandatory to achieve HD

April 23rd, 2007, 08:05 PM	#35
Andrew Kimery Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 352	Just to toss in my anecdotal 2 cents here... Over the past few years I've seen several hundred hours of HDV footage shot on MiniDV tapes and only remember one drop out (which was most likely due to the camera owner/operate not keeping his camera clean, IMO). Many of those tapes were shot in the tropics under less than ideal conditions and shipped back to Los Angeles in zip lock bags (inside a padded box of course) and they didn't have any errors. IMO the expensive "HDV" tapes are up there w/Monster Cables. On paper there may be a theoretical advantage, but in practice the gains are insignificant or non-existent. As long as you use quality tape stock and keep your gear clean I wouldn't fret over drop outs. -A

April 24th, 2007, 07:12 AM	#38
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	Kevin I agree. I did a Greek wedding that took 16 tapes from multiple cams. $48 versus $240 off the quoted price big difference to my pocket. The tapes I buy at Sams come with three labels and I use all three. Once for the original raw footage twice for original raw footage and the third time to master finished movies. I have been doing this for years and haven’t had a problem yet. Doing it this way makes my tapes $1 per use. Not bad. Master tapes get stored away and 99% of the time never used again.

April 24th, 2007, 08:57 PM	#39
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	thanks Andrew (also others), that's what my hunch would be, and the Monster cable anaogy puts it perfectly. I assume, you are all, Ron included, talking about your experinces with shooting HD footage, I hope...

April 24th, 2007, 09:31 PM	#40
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	Kevin I have two HDV cameras and use the maxell tapes. I figure if I do get a drop out I will use the B roll. If I am shooting with one camera I shoot some of the location for cover shots.

April 25th, 2007, 02:14 AM	#41
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I have often found no relation between price and quality. I know that TDK actually makes the TDK tapes sold at Costco. Many companies just put a label on a product some asian manufacturer you have never heard of made. I like products that are made from a single company since the manufacturing process is less likely to change. Relabeled products are bought from the lowest bidder and tend to change suppliers more frequently. Also, I heard about problems from some HDV-rated tapes early on so I see no reason to switch from something that is a known constant. Why pay $10 for something that may not be as reliable as the $3 product?

April 25th, 2007, 04:39 PM	#42
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	also, how cricital is one dropout? How do you know it's a drop out, and it's the tapes fault.

April 25th, 2007, 10:27 PM	#43
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	In HDV the drop out is pretty significant it last for an entire second. That doesn’t sound like much but when you see it, it looks bad.

May 6th, 2007, 11:57 AM	#44
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	on end note to this subject guys, then when Apple calls a software Final Cut Express HD, there is nothing inherent in the software that makes it special for high def, correct? I originally thought, that hey, they have HD in title of the software, hence you must have HD in titile of software to be able to work with HD video, but that's just a PR thing right? putting HD in title. Any, and all old FCP softwares can work with HD correct?

May 6th, 2007, 01:40 PM	#45
Kevin Carter Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: los angeles, CA Posts: 235	on end note to this subject guys, then when Apple calls a software Final Cut Express HD, there is nothing inherent in the software that makes it special for high def, correct? I originally thought, that hey, they have HD in title of the software, hence you must have HD in title of software to be able to work with HD video, but that's just a PR thing right? putting HD in title. Any, and all old FCP software’s can work with HD correct?