What is a Vegas user likely to love/hate about Edius?

Perrone Ford · June 29th, 2009, 11:27 AM

Bill,

I certainly didn't mean to touch on a sore spot with you. If Cineform works great for you, have at it brother! :)

I cut in Vegas and hope to add Avid MC3.5 to the stable this year. So I may yet run into what you are seeing. And I agree, the luma shifts are maddening.

My own testing in my environment led me to DNxHD over Cineform, but I don't have the version you do. I just have the old 3.3x that I upgraded to. When I realized that I couldn't encode Cineform AVIs with any version abovethat from Vegas 8.1 (64bit) it became a show stopper for me.

Because I work for the government, archival takes on a different slant for me. My work needs to be accessible by anyone who might follow me, or by anyone at the local TV stations I work with down the road. None use Cineform so that was something of an issue. I also couldn't ask that they buy it so we could hand off files.

To those that read this, please don't take this back and forth with Bill and I to mean that Cineform isn't great. It is, it just didn't work for me, but it did for Bill. And vice versa on DNxHD. Different needs and different outcomes.

Back on point with Vegas to Edius. The recent flux in the program with it being sold gives me pause. I would also direct a PC person to look at Avid as an editing solution both because of it's power, and it's ubiquitous nature. If I had to choose a new NLE right now, Edius would not be on that list for a number of reasons.

Peter Moretti · June 29th, 2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

...
As I said earlier, transcoding to the Cineform DI outside of Avid, saves me the step of transcoding/flattening video XDCAM files within Avid. Also, internal transcoding in Avid is quite a bit slower than transcoding with Cineform's HDLINK.

... Given the numbers of transfers between apps like After Effecs and Media Composer, I rely on Cineform to reliably deliver the best images possible. Even DNxHD has some serious luma problems with apps like AE.

Bill,

Can Avid work natively with Cineform encoded Quicktimes? I thought it needed to do a transcode, not just a rewrapping into MXF. I'm definitely not trying to dispute your approach, just understand it a little better.

Bill Ravens · June 29th, 2009, 09:38 PM

OK, guys. Here's what I can tell you. Just my own perspective, that's all.
No, Cineform does NOT work natively with Avid. Wish it did. BUT, what it WILL
do is import without needing to transcode. If you import XDCAM, for example, it will play on the timeline, but, you can't export it with Quick time Reference, which is like a frameserver. You will need to transcode any AMA/XDCAM imported footage. Not so if you've already transcoded to Cineform.

It would seem, to my observation, that there's a plethora of platforms and workflows. Some workflows work for some, the same workflows don't work for others. I don't preach my workflow as the end all, be all. All I can say is that it works for me. I've spent a great deal of time, on my computer platform, testing to find what works on MY machine. One of the things that boggles my mind is that my workflow, just doesn't work on other machines. I can proseletize my opinion 'til the cows come home. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. I've spent a great deal of time understanding what works for me, i share that, and that's all I can say. I just can't sell it as a universal solution. Guess, that's up to each individual to understand.

Peter Moretti · June 29th, 2009, 10:05 PM

Bill,

Okay, I'm hopelessly confused on this. I know what Cineform is and read and watched info about FirstLight. But I'm just not getting how you are actually using it in your workflow. I'm SURE it works well. And I have NO doubt that you have a very good way of doing things. I'm just not able to follow the steps. :(

If you feel like it, a really idiot-proof step by step of what you're doing would be great (maybe posted in the Avid forum b/c this is kind of becoming a highjack). Something like:

1) Record using EX1
2) Transcode to Cineform using HDLink (I think)
3) Use FirstLight to create the first light look
4) Import into Avid. (This is where my brain freezes. I'm assuming it's a slow import, which means a lot of time and a transcode into DNxHD... and I'm totally lost b/c now you're out of Cineform and in DNxHD and all the looks are baked-in.)
5) Create QT reference.
6) Open QT ref in AfterEffects.
7) Etc.

Again Bill, I'm sure you are doing things in a very good way; it's just my experience and level of understanding that are falling short. No rush on this or if you don't feel up to it, don't worry. You've been very helpful many times already ;).

June 29th, 2009, 11:27 AM	#16
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Bill, I certainly didn't mean to touch on a sore spot with you. If Cineform works great for you, have at it brother! :) I cut in Vegas and hope to add Avid MC3.5 to the stable this year. So I may yet run into what you are seeing. And I agree, the luma shifts are maddening. My own testing in my environment led me to DNxHD over Cineform, but I don't have the version you do. I just have the old 3.3x that I upgraded to. When I realized that I couldn't encode Cineform AVIs with any version abovethat from Vegas 8.1 (64bit) it became a show stopper for me. Because I work for the government, archival takes on a different slant for me. My work needs to be accessible by anyone who might follow me, or by anyone at the local TV stations I work with down the road. None use Cineform so that was something of an issue. I also couldn't ask that they buy it so we could hand off files. To those that read this, please don't take this back and forth with Bill and I to mean that Cineform isn't great. It is, it just didn't work for me, but it did for Bill. And vice versa on DNxHD. Different needs and different outcomes. Back on point with Vegas to Edius. The recent flux in the program with it being sold gives me pause. I would also direct a PC person to look at Avid as an editing solution both because of it's power, and it's ubiquitous nature. If I had to choose a new NLE right now, Edius would not be on that list for a number of reasons. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

June 29th, 2009, 10:05 PM	#19
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Bill, Okay, I'm hopelessly confused on this. I know what Cineform is and read and watched info about FirstLight. But I'm just not getting how you are actually using it in your workflow. I'm SURE it works well. And I have NO doubt that you have a very good way of doing things. I'm just not able to follow the steps. :( If you feel like it, a really idiot-proof step by step of what you're doing would be great (maybe posted in the Avid forum b/c this is kind of becoming a highjack). Something like: 1) Record using EX1 2) Transcode to Cineform using HDLink (I think) 3) Use FirstLight to create the first light look 4) Import into Avid. (This is where my brain freezes. I'm assuming it's a slow import, which means a lot of time and a transcode into DNxHD... and I'm totally lost b/c now you're out of Cineform and in DNxHD and all the looks are baked-in.) 5) Create QT reference. 6) Open QT ref in AfterEffects. 7) Etc. Again Bill, I'm sure you are doing things in a very good way; it's just my experience and level of understanding that are falling short. No rush on this or if you don't feel up to it, don't worry. You've been very helpful many times already ;). __________________ Avid Media Composer 3.1.3. Boris Red and Continuum Complete. Vegas 8.0c. TMPGEnc Xpress Pro 4.0 Last edited by Peter Moretti; June 30th, 2009 at 04:57 AM.

June 29th, 2009, 09:38 PM	#18
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	OK, guys. Here's what I can tell you. Just my own perspective, that's all. No, Cineform does NOT work natively with Avid. Wish it did. BUT, what it WILL do is import without needing to transcode. If you import XDCAM, for example, it will play on the timeline, but, you can't export it with Quick time Reference, which is like a frameserver. You will need to transcode any AMA/XDCAM imported footage. Not so if you've already transcoded to Cineform. It would seem, to my observation, that there's a plethora of platforms and workflows. Some workflows work for some, the same workflows don't work for others. I don't preach my workflow as the end all, be all. All I can say is that it works for me. I've spent a great deal of time, on my computer platform, testing to find what works on MY machine. One of the things that boggles my mind is that my workflow, just doesn't work on other machines. I can proseletize my opinion 'til the cows come home. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. I've spent a great deal of time understanding what works for me, i share that, and that's all I can say. I just can't sell it as a universal solution. Guess, that's up to each individual to understand.