Need to upgrade edit system...help!

Paul Frederick · August 11th, 2005, 08:25 AM

Thanks for chiming in guys. You're right, with this budget there ARE alot of options. That is why I'm bouncing all over trying to figure it out. What I need is a vendor who's put together many systems, preferably with a wide array of apps that can hear what my needs are and say, "It sounds like you need x system, and here is what it'll cost".

Is the Pinnacle Liquid Chrome able to do real time output to a monitor? Are you doing much compositing in Native HDV...if so how does it hold up? You must have to do some kind of transcoding if you go out to say After Effects for building graphics and then back?

Thanks again for the input everyone.

Stephen L. Noe · August 11th, 2005, 10:38 AM

Pinnacle Edition is famous for RT. There is nothing like having a client sitting next to you and being able to make fundamental timeline changes and not have to render anything. You can Xsend to AE or use Boris Red right on the timeline as a plugin. Some Premiere plugs will work as well, not all but some of them do. Your parameters like RT, Dolby 5.1 surround and DVD timeline authoring are exactly what ChromeHD is all about. You'll never loose an edit because of instant save technology (that's gold). I'd be willing to bet Avid will put that in Xpress Pro. I think if you're going to edit HDV then native editing is best and that is Pinnacle Edition 6 and FCP right now and soon Avid XpressPro. Edition 6 HDV has been working for me since October '04 (3 edit stations) almost a year.

Randy Donato · August 11th, 2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

All true, but the Canopus system is an 8-bit only solution. I figured this user's broadcast needs will likely benefit for from 10-bit processing and storage and the HDSDI export option. Otherwise I would have suggested Aspect HD. :)

One of these days when I get some time I am going to try to understand the benefits of editing 10 bit when the source is 8 bit to start with.....I know it must be there cause lots of money is spent to do that and all that money can't be wrong.

David Newman · August 11th, 2005, 12:05 PM

I know 8-bit sources are common, like HD CAM and DVCPRO-HD are also 8-bit yet all pro editing solutions are 10-bit and for good reasons. Very simple is you edit in 8-bit (256 levels) and you add any color correction (brighten or contract adjustment) you can introduce banding as the output will always be less than 256 levels. Instead of a gradient of 127,128,129,130 you get things like 127,128,128,129. Using a 10-bit post this doesn't happen, you can enhance the video without introduce bands. 8 bit data is upconverted to 10bit during editing to allow the extra precision.

Stephen L. Noe · August 11th, 2005, 12:47 PM

Very true David, 10 bit is far superior to 8 bit in that regard. 10 bit comes at a high data storage cost though, as you know. If color is correct to begin with in camera then the advantage is moot over 8 bit (which is the source material most of the time). As I said, it goes back and forth over on Discreet Smoke's Cow site all the time. In this case I think Paul was asking in regard to HDV (420 MPeg2) edits.

David Newman · August 11th, 2005, 02:05 PM

10bit compression overcomes the storage cost issues. And it is a rare production that doesn't need any color correction. This is way 10bit is a favored editing mode.

Paul Frederick · August 11th, 2005, 04:20 PM

Right now my principal source will be HDV. But the documentary I'm going to edit with this system involves MANY historical photographs. A good portion the show will be "camera" moves on HI-REZ scans of these pictures. That is why I need AE, to do these moves. The interviews are shot on HDV. I think I'll want to do the camera moves on the pictures in AE at full 1920-1080 to get the best quality from them. Does this mean 10 bit will be of any benefit if the majority of the work is done in an outboard app like AE? I'll be able to adjust levels on the stills before I render it as an AVI.

The other benefit to me of 10 bit is who knows what tomorrow will bring? I'd like to think at 10-12k that this system will be good for around 5 years....I'm sure HDV will be superceded by a higher quality low cost format in the near future.

John M Burkhart · August 12th, 2005, 01:12 AM

Paul, I don't know if you're going to end up being informed, or more confused by this thread!

There are a lot of good options out there now. Which if you think about the NLE only 5 years ago, for an sdi system, the result of your search would have been "Give me $100,000, here's your Avid." Choice and competition is a good if confusing thing.

FWIW, as far as longevity goes. I have a Dual 1.42 g4 powermac.

I started out with FCP3, upgraded to FCP4, and now upgraded to FCP5. I started cutting dv, then bought a kona card and used it for 10bit SD uncompressed, and now am cutting HDV on it. Also went from OS X 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4. Three full version upgrades on the same hardware!

Apple really can optimize it's stuff for their specific computers.

JB

Stephen Finton · August 12th, 2005, 09:26 AM

If After Effects does not support HDV, perhaps you can use a frameserver to send your projects to Premiere? That way you only render once.

August 11th, 2005, 12:05 PM	#19
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I know 8-bit sources are common, like HD CAM and DVCPRO-HD are also 8-bit yet all pro editing solutions are 10-bit and for good reasons. Very simple is you edit in 8-bit (256 levels) and you add any color correction (brighten or contract adjustment) you can introduce banding as the output will always be less than 256 levels. Instead of a gradient of 127,128,129,130 you get things like 127,128,128,129. Using a 10-bit post this doesn't happen, you can enhance the video without introduce bands. 8 bit data is upconverted to 10bit during editing to allow the extra precision. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 11th, 2005, 02:05 PM	#21
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	10bit compression overcomes the storage cost issues. And it is a rare production that doesn't need any color correction. This is way 10bit is a favored editing mode. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 11th, 2005, 08:25 AM	#16
Paul Frederick Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: WestChazy, NY Posts: 291	Thanks for chiming in guys. You're right, with this budget there ARE alot of options. That is why I'm bouncing all over trying to figure it out. What I need is a vendor who's put together many systems, preferably with a wide array of apps that can hear what my needs are and say, "It sounds like you need x system, and here is what it'll cost". Is the Pinnacle Liquid Chrome able to do real time output to a monitor? Are you doing much compositing in Native HDV...if so how does it hold up? You must have to do some kind of transcoding if you go out to say After Effects for building graphics and then back? Thanks again for the input everyone.

August 11th, 2005, 10:38 AM	#17
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Pinnacle Edition is famous for RT. There is nothing like having a client sitting next to you and being able to make fundamental timeline changes and not have to render anything. You can Xsend to AE or use Boris Red right on the timeline as a plugin. Some Premiere plugs will work as well, not all but some of them do. Your parameters like RT, Dolby 5.1 surround and DVD timeline authoring are exactly what ChromeHD is all about. You'll never loose an edit because of instant save technology (that's gold). I'd be willing to bet Avid will put that in Xpress Pro. I think if you're going to edit HDV then native editing is best and that is Pinnacle Edition 6 and FCP right now and soon Avid XpressPro. Edition 6 HDV has been working for me since October '04 (3 edit stations) almost a year.

August 11th, 2005, 12:47 PM	#20
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Very true David, 10 bit is far superior to 8 bit in that regard. 10 bit comes at a high data storage cost though, as you know. If color is correct to begin with in camera then the advantage is moot over 8 bit (which is the source material most of the time). As I said, it goes back and forth over on Discreet Smoke's Cow site all the time. In this case I think Paul was asking in regard to HDV (420 MPeg2) edits.

August 11th, 2005, 04:20 PM	#22
Paul Frederick Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: WestChazy, NY Posts: 291	Right now my principal source will be HDV. But the documentary I'm going to edit with this system involves MANY historical photographs. A good portion the show will be "camera" moves on HI-REZ scans of these pictures. That is why I need AE, to do these moves. The interviews are shot on HDV. I think I'll want to do the camera moves on the pictures in AE at full 1920-1080 to get the best quality from them. Does this mean 10 bit will be of any benefit if the majority of the work is done in an outboard app like AE? I'll be able to adjust levels on the stills before I render it as an AVI. The other benefit to me of 10 bit is who knows what tomorrow will bring? I'd like to think at 10-12k that this system will be good for around 5 years....I'm sure HDV will be superceded by a higher quality low cost format in the near future.

August 12th, 2005, 01:12 AM	#23
John M Burkhart Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 97	Paul, I don't know if you're going to end up being informed, or more confused by this thread! There are a lot of good options out there now. Which if you think about the NLE only 5 years ago, for an sdi system, the result of your search would have been "Give me $100,000, here's your Avid." Choice and competition is a good if confusing thing. FWIW, as far as longevity goes. I have a Dual 1.42 g4 powermac. I started out with FCP3, upgraded to FCP4, and now upgraded to FCP5. I started cutting dv, then bought a kona card and used it for 10bit SD uncompressed, and now am cutting HDV on it. Also went from OS X 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4. Three full version upgrades on the same hardware! Apple really can optimize it's stuff for their specific computers. JB

August 12th, 2005, 09:26 AM	#24
Stephen Finton Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 344	If After Effects does not support HDV, perhaps you can use a frameserver to send your projects to Premiere? That way you only render once.