HDV 720/24p editing solution. Help?

[Brian Orser]

I have been doing intensive research on this topic, but can't get a satisfactory answer. If anyone can help me make this decision I would greatly appreciate it.

JVC HD110U camera
720 24p HDV footage

I am currently running DV on Premiere Pro 2 capturing into Premiere via firewire on my PC. Making the leap to HD, especially HDV, appears complex and full of pitfalls. I am wondering what the best workflow/editing set-up would be for me. I will be working on large documentary projects and am willing to learn new editing platforms.

I am preparing to completely renovate my setup. Meaning I am looking at all options including a change in operating system, NLE program, capture method, editing codec (intermediate codec) and so on.

I have seen so many options each with their own issues and benefits. I am curious what each of you would choose as your ideal system STRICTLY IN TERMS OF HDV capture and post-production. I have heard a lot of discussion about the issues with HDV in post-production regarding realtime editing, ease and speed of use, and quality problems during color grading and other post operations.

The concept of a capture card that converts HDV straight to another codec during capture is often brought up but I'm not sure which cards do this, if any, and their ease of use. So too are programs like Cineform which provide intermediate codecs.

Please tell me your ideal workflow/setup for 720/24p footage. Please be as specific as possible :)

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Brian

[Jeffrey Fuchs]

Brian,

I am in a similar situation. I want to edit in HDV but I want it to be like editing in DV. I have come to the conclusion that my two best options are Aspect HD or Matrox RT.X2. I am leaning toward the Matrox for a couple of reasons, one is because I like the slow-motion better then the Adobe only slow-motion, also much more real-time editing with the Matrox. The Matrox does cost more, but if you buy it now you get a free upgrade to Premiere Pro CS3 when it comes out. That makes the Matrox much more reasonable.

On of the negatives is that the Matrox is hardware and it will get old in time, but it should be good for 2, 3 years.

See http://www.matrox.com/video/products/rtx2_card/home.cfm

I hope this helps.

Jeff

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Brian Orser

I have seen so many options each with their own issues and benefits. I am curious what each of you would choose as your ideal system STRICTLY IN TERMS OF HDV capture and post-production. I have heard a lot of discussion about the issues with HDV in post-production regarding realtime editing, ease and speed of use, and quality problems during color grading and other post operations.

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Brian

Brian,

I'm not sure that there is a perfect workflow yet for 720/24 HDV. But if your criteria is truly based strictly in terms of HDV capture and post workflow and you're currently on a fast PC Dual Core with a good Graphics card, I would say Avid Liquid would be your best bet. It will work the JVC 24p on terms of IEEE 1394 catpure and is HDV native (demuxs m2t to m2v), flexible 4;3, letterbox, and 16:9 scaling and it is less than $1000 and runs on PC. (software only $499, Pro version $999) The Pro version comes with an SD analog USB breakout box so you can output to Betacam SP, etc.. If you're going out to HD such as HDCAM you can export an uncompressed 720 or 1080i Black Magic codec file and take it to a post facility that has Black Magic setup and HDCAM decks. The overall workflow works.

Rumors of a new version 7.2 at NAB may add some new features to it.

I currently use it in conjuction with Avid Xpress Pro because I like the Xpress/Media Composer interface and media management better. But, if your project is pretty much going to reside on one computer, then Liquid is a good affordable place to start.

Liquid Workflow: Capture HDV via 1394 into Liquid or import already capture m2t's into app. Edit realtime HDV. (Supports background rendering of efx). Color correct at this stage is easy and doesn't degrade because HDV in Liquid is native. However, you must cc at this stage and not in DV.

Scale timeline for 4:3 or 16:9, (documentation shows process).

If your going to SD from HDV, you fuse a timeline into DV or uncompressed component. You can output a DVD straight from the HDV timeline. Liquid does the SD downconversion automatically. Also, Liquid handles pulldown and reverse pulldown timebase issues well.

Once you understand the fuse timeline process and scaling it is pretty easy.

Good Luck...

ps NAB is in week 1/2, might see what's announced by Avid and Apple.

[Brian Orser]

Wow, thanks guys.

Jeffrey: I am definately considering both of those options now too. However, what do you mean about the slow motion on the Matrox? Thank you very much for your reply.

David: Thanks a lot. I am looking at Avid and was wondering how it might work. Great info. I am confused though: I have often come across people using multiple Avid products for the same project (like you) but as far as I can tell, these products are all very similar (though some are better/more expensive) and have a lot of overlap. I am confused as to why you would use, for example, Liquid and Xpress and Media Composer all together... What does each do? If you like Xpress/Media Composer better, why do you use Liquid?

Anyways, thanks a bunch. This seems a very viable option.

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Brian Orser

I am confused as to why you would use, for example, Liquid and Xpress and Media Composer all together... What does each do? If you like Xpress/Media Composer better, why do you use Liquid?

Anyways, thanks a bunch. This seems a very viable option.

I currently, (and I stress currently as this may change after NAB) use both depending on the project, mainly the parameters and the deadline of the project. I started using Liquid because it covered some short comings in Avid Xpress Pro which I had before Liquid. I also bought Liquid because it does a lot for $499.

I still use Xpress Pro because it is flexible, fast and rarely crashes. It allows me to move my project from my desktop to notebook (I use eSATA drives on both) and every file automatically relinks. The big current downside to Xpress is that it doesn't digitize HDV 720/p 24 straight into the application. There is currently not a preset for HDV 1. A lot of Xpress users are very mad because Avid has promised this for almost 2 years and others like FCP, Edius, and Liquid have had this HDV/24p support. So, I've been editing on Xpress a long time, (started out on Media Composer 13 years ago) Now to get JVC 24p into Avid Xpress, I have to dig using CapDVHS and then convert m2t to DNXHD 90 and import into a 720/30p preset. It's slow and takes rendering time. Also, if I need to do a non letter boxed 4:3, Xpress doesn't have a proper 4:3 scale/reformat tool. It squeezes the sides vs. zooming in slightly. It comes close in 14:9. (By the way I shoot a lot of HDV 30p which Xpress Pro supports fine). Also as a hindrance, the downconversion for HDV 30p workflow is a little strange in Xpress. You have to open up a new project in 30i and transcode to DV or 1:1. Which means more rendering.

On the other hand, Liquid makes up for those Xpress limitations. However, it;s media management isn't near as flexible, and the editing interface is not as streamlined or flexible.(Lots of right clicking on the mouse and you must use preformatted interface selections). So, I've been using Liquid as a finishing tool with from Xpress exports on long form where the client makes a lot of changes and using Liquid for short form HDV 24p quick turnaround. But Liquid stays on my desktop computer.

Right now, I'm hoping to upgrade to Media Composer (my personal preference) if they add JVC 24p support and fix their scaling problem for 4:3. The main reason is that it is more intuitive for me because I've been editing a certain way for so long.

But, if you don't edit with clients over your shoulder or have tight deadlines, then I think Liquid would be a good place to start. It uses a bin structure called "racks" and resembles Windows Explorer. Also the digitizing tool allows to make a fair amount of notations ,(Scene, takes etc.) so it is easy to organize a lot of footage. GREAT FOR DOCUMENTARY WORK. I highly recommend Liquid.

[Jeffrey Fuchs]

Originally Posted by Brian Orser

Wow, thanks guys.

Jeffrey: I am definately considering both of those options now too. However, what do you mean about the slow motion on the Matrox? Thank you very much for your reply.

Anyways, thanks a bunch. This seems a very viable option.

Brian,

I do mostly wedding videos and I currently have the Matrox RTX100. The Matrox RTX100 slow-motion is MUCH better then the Premiere only slow-motion. I have heard that the RT-X2 has better slow-motion then the Premiere alone also, if someone could confirm this that would be great. The other big selling point for the RT-X2 is real-time preview on an HDTV through DVI. Nice! I am pretty sure I will buy it later this month and build a system around it. The RT-X2 is very fussy on what system you put it in so you will want to research that aspect before you buy or build a computer.

Jeff

[Jiri Fiala]

Hello Jeff,

I have RT.X2 with JVC HD111 and its performance is very good. I love having preview on CRT monitor while capturing, which Cineform cannot do. There is really no difference editing DV and HDV with RTX2. Slow motion is much better looking than from Premiere alone.

I like to be able almost unlimited realtime effects on HDV footage including realtime CC and VERY nice Matrox chromakey (plus, you can go component in controlled environments for extra chromakey quality, which gives you nice 4:2:2 colour sampling instead of 4:2:0 HDV). And it's not that expensive - you get full Premiere 2 for the price. You might as well wait for Premeiere CS3.

But I would recommend Matrox certified PC, Matrox really IS very particular about host machine. Even on certified HP XW4400 workstation, Premiere crashes from time to time.

Also, get Audigy soundcard, DO NOT rely on onboard audio, as this give stutters and audio dropouts.

[Jeffrey Fuchs]

Jiri,

Thanks for the feedback. I am pretty much sold on Martrox RT.X2 now. If I buy it now I get the CS3 upgrade free, so there is no need to wait. I plan to build a system myself, I see the Matrox website has some good info on building a system, I will make sure I stick with approved parts.

jeff

[Brian Orser]

Great info. Thanks a lot to all.