A laterally important issue? Yes.

An opportunity to post a rant on DV Info Net? No, because we don't do rants.

The general consensus is to simply avoid ground shipping altogether. In many cases, the 3-day options offered by Fed Ex and UPS will get to their destinations just as quickly and are more easily tracked and insured.

I think the no rant idea is a good one and once everyone knows about a potentially rantable situation then there is no need to rant about it. It's the first time a person hears about something that seems wrong, perhaps even illegal, which can lead to a "rantful" reaction.

I had no idea that the responsibility for a package could actually be passed off into invisible land, so for me it is a shock. For someone who already knows about it, it's no big thing.

Perhaps ranting is sort of like a laugh track for a sit-com. Not necessarily necessary, but sometimes it can help reinforce a message.

I guess my question is, is there a difference between a rant about a possibly illegal activity or procedure that can adversly affect forum members versus a more generic emotional rant?

I'm not sure that there is... however I am certain that there's a difference between a rant about a possibly illegal activity or procedure that can adversely affect forum members versus a rational report about the same topic which doesn't give way to vented frustrations or other emotional outbursts, and on this site that's what we're looking for. That's why useless one-liners such as "that is insane!" have a habit of disappearing around here. It's just noise which doesn't accomplish anything. We want signal, not noise.

DV Info Net is intended to exist as an *alternative* to the typical internet experience, and that is why rants are strongly discouraged here. If a person feels the need to rant, that's what blogs are for... or perhaps other message boards that thrive on rants.

Let's now please return to the topic at hand -- thanks in advance,

The RED would be affected by any limits on the larger batteries. Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries appear to be the way to go in the future for the larger cameras which need 4 or more batteries in their kits for a day's filming.

Fortunately, the smaller cameras should be OK for day's filming if they allow 2 spares and one installed on the "device". However, they can't be left "bouncing around" in the bottom of the camera bag/case when taken on flights.

Having heard about the fire hazard one person has moved his 2 year old lithium camera batteries (I assume the larger jobs) from his house into his garage.

The high end battery manufacturers for film & TV have been working on the safety of the lithium batteries, unfortunately, there are a lot of cheaper batteries which have lower standards of quality control and safety regulations often have to cover the lowest common denominator.

Brian, the regulations don't limit the number of spare batteries to just two. The regulations limit the number of spare batteries that are over the 8gm limit to a total of two that have an aggregate weight of no more than twenty five gms.


A carefull reading of the regs does NOT specificy that you are limited to only two spare batteries per device, if the batteries are 8 grams or less in LiOn content.

Thats why I said it was poorly written.

Now, will every TSA employee read it this way??? That's the question.
-------------------------------------------------------
Spare Lithium-Ion Battery (Not Installed in a Device)
(up to 8 grams lithium equivalent content)

Permitted in carry-on baggage

----------------------------------------------------
“Special Case”

Up to 2 Lithium-Ion Batteries, Spare or Installed
(between 8 and 25 grams aggregate lithium equivalent content) Spare Batteries: Forbidden!
Installed in Devices: Permitted Spare Batteries: Permitted
Installed in Devices: Permitted

_________________________________________

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html


Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold.

You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.

For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.

Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal. But if you are unsure, contact the manufacturer!
_____________________________________________________________________clipped from Govt Website_____

Yes it is confusing, especially when you compare the tables with the text. Basically, it'll come down to what happens in practise, which could be even more confusing.

Yeah, I agree, it's a cluck-up waiting to happen. I hope we get some quick clarifications soon. Well, with all the political caucausing and primaries, and newscrews criss-crossing the country, perhaps we'll get a quick 'confrontation' and 'ruling' on it!

Richard
That's the problem. Many don't read it carefully and just jump at the number '2'. Even AP's report and its regurgitated versions is guilty of that, setting off more panic. The internet is a great tool, but it's also possible to get bad info easily.

In practise, since traditionally many news crews hand carry their camera and you can't check in spare lithium batteries. A set of batteries in their case for the larger cameras would be pretty close to the cabin baggage limits (and many would be too large). So, with current security controls it might come down to a simple choice of deciding if you put the camera in the hold (in a proper case of course). It depends if they regard your Betacam/XDCAM/DVPRO.... kit as a camera or your carry on baggage allowance.

Ah, the joys of travelling with a broadcast camera kit.

The smaller cameras would seem to be able to work around this.

Well, I've got to fly in February for a shoot across country. At this point... I'll check my camera (XL2) in it's pelican case in the hold. I'll take my VL10 On camera light with ONE bp 945 attached, and two spare BP945's. I'm going to give the back up camera(Gl2) to my producer to carryon with one Bp945 and two spares... so I should be good to go. IN THEORY I could carry all eight of my BP945's in my carryon, and LOAD one in my camera in it's case... but again, we're all waiting to see how the TSA actually implements the rules.

They seem to be explaining it clearer now.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...batteries.shtm

Only the larger lithium batteries (which could affect RED if they're lithium) seem to run into problems. Basically they want the spare lithium batteries in the cabin, where any fire can be extinguished, rather than burning in the hold, and the terminals covered to prevent shorting. I expect they'll also want all the other safety paperwork/labels that the manufacturers have been providing.

Knowing how tight they are these days, people will have to be aware of their carry on weight limits.

Again, this seems to be the theory.

All this should create a new market or opportunity (or added fees) for battery rentals, etc.

I also think that a fire proof device may emerge as a consumer option, and if approved by the TSA then we'll all be adding such to our kit and it will be business as usual.

Time will tell when the rules and restrictions of flying become so stringent that we'll be crawling into boxes and fedexing ourselves.. :)

Methinks one of the keys here may be the "covered terminal" requirement. AFAIK, even a regular old 9V battery heats up like the dickens.

So I'm guessing that the explosive results are a result of poor design where batteries short internally, or batteries which become shorted when poorly packed... the former being a manufacturer issue which the TSA cannot really do a single thing about (although it's why I refuse to buy aftermarket batteries)... the latter being a matter of proper care in packing, which the average TSA agent won't know squat about...


All this is probably a result of the old game of "telephone", which oddly resembles the internet in techincal accuracy... someone saw a battery overloaded and exploding and said "that could be bad on an airplane", and through the joys of bureaucracy, passed it up the chain, who then acted on "too many batteries could blow up a plane"... along with fingernail clippers and miscellaneous liquids... and thus a new restriction on the 99.99% of us who are sensible is hatched! To be enforced by guys who probably wouldn't know LiON from a lion (large cat).

Just remember this makes us all safer from ourselves <wink>! Just don't stick your spare batteries in a pile with some extra wire and your spare alarm clock, OK?!


PS - maybe there's an opportunity for "FAA approved battery covers" here? I know the little Canon batteries for the HV20 had covers right with them!

Dave, unfortunately there is truth to this, not just rumors. If you scroll up to my message #18, you will see some scary looking evidence.
You are right, that internal defects are the biggest evil, as they are impossible to detect before it is too late. Recent recalls of the Sony batteries were linked to internal short circuits inside their cells. Every Li-Ion battery sold has protection electronics built in, in order to protect against the overloads and short circuits. It is the internal problem inside a cell that is not protected by electronics.
Placing the batteries in plastic bags or covering plus and minus electrodes with electrical tape is good common sense practice, but it does not address the real problem...

Unfortunately this is not practical. In my recent dealings with UL and other battery experts I asked the same question. The guys were just smiling and shaking their heads - the amount of energy released by a burning Li-Ion battery is so great, there is no way to contain it ...

How does this affect the selling of Lithium Ion Batteries on eBay? Especially the Anton Bauer batteries? Are people going to be breaking the law everytime they box up an Anton Bauer battery and ship it to the auction winner?

It is a good question. Shipping Fedex or UPS, they travel on their own cargo planes. DOT (dept of transportation) in general allows for unregulated shipping of under 100wh batteries. It is the big ones - over 100WH - fall into the special category #9, meaning they must be shipped only in special packaging and be declared.
But what about USPS that uses passenger airplanes for their needs?

Not if they ship it UPS Ground (which can often be as quick in my experience).

I have followed this fairly closely and wondered what took the FAA so long to notice. Non-rechargeable Li batteries are even worse in a short in some cases. The fire extinguishers onboard are usually CO2 or ABC, but a Li fire really falls into a class D type extinguisher (with CO2 being the better because of the chilling.) But an unprotected connection shorted on a fully charged battery is bad medicine with Li, and not even a good idea on other batteries. Alkalines get really hot, but usually don't burst into flames. And the flaming laptops are a special case. The battery was contaminated with metal fragments. Those fragments are what eventually caused the material to overheat and catch fire. There were some periods where brands of laptops were banned from air travel because of the risk.

The FAA has banned less risky items in the past. It comes down to a simple rule, when it hits the fan on an airplane, you cannot roll to a stop on the side of the road and get out. And one incident effects hundreds of people in a very spectacular fashion.

Bryan,
The TSA's interpretation of the DOT HazMat Rules is incorrect. I have confirmed this with the DOT Hazardous Materials Information Center (800-467-4922). Checking any SPARE batteries is prohibited. Of course, TSA is charged with enforcing these rules, so a traveler may get away with it, but it would be a violation.

The correct interpretation of the rules is on the DOT's Safe Travel website, which in itself is confusing. Basically, you can check or carry-on a DEVICE with an installed Li-ion battery of up to 25 grams Li content.

Of course, you can carry-on any number of Li-ion batteries of up to 8 grams Li, plus up to two extended life (between 8 and 25 grams Li) batteries provided the two extended life batteries do not exceed an aggregate Li content of 25 grams. All spare batteries must have the contacts protected either in their original packaging, by being taped over, or each in a separate plastic bag.

See, that paragraph says it so eloquently. But I think you have to fail a test to become a regulations writer for the government!

Charger as a "Device"
 

I hope this is not getting here to late. but here goes.

A "Device" has to be powered by the battery.

Okay this article seems to confirm our take that you get as many "under 8gm" batteries in your carry on as you like. It's also a well written review of the new regs.

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/62899

I am a little late here but..
When the DOT says "device" they mean like a laptop battery is installed.
A charger does not qualify. Nor and A/B or Sony battery on a camera.

Ex: A Dionic-90 or BP-L40 on a Sony DSR-250 is an "out board" battery and is not considered installed.

A battery is a PD-150 the same.

Scott Keyworth
Anton/Bauer

Despite how DOT defines "device," it's going to come down to how individual TSA representatives interpret these rules in practice, and most likely the experience is going to vary widely from one airport to another.

What they're going to be looking for is exposed battery contacts, and batteries carried attached on a charger will not have exposed contacts and therefore most likely will pass TSA inspection in at least some locations. Point being that I would not expect any consistency as to how these rules are enforced.

It doesn't matter if TSA's interpretation of the DOT rules is right or wrong -- what matters is that they have immediate authority to determine what will or will not pass at the security check point.

Chris is right, and what the thread has really been dealing with, is a 'guestimation' on how TSA employees will 'rule at the gate'. And it really is just a guestimation at this point. One wonders if it is worth printing out 'the rules' and 'interpretations' to take with, in order to better convince a confused TSA screener... but then you have to choose between the two old adages...

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease" - By arguing, you'll get by.

OR

"The squawking goose gets the axe." - Arguing will just get you screwed.

Just completed my first trip out under the new rules. I was travelling with an HDCam and 4 IDX E80 bricks. I hung two bricks on the camera, and dutifully encased the two spares in individual Ziplock bags.

The battery-laden camera and spares went into the Portabrace bag, and zipped right through security in the San Francisco and Portland airports without a hitch.

No one even opened the exterior pouch to check on the spares.

I'll still carry the letter from IDX detailing the lithium grams for my set of batteries, and the DOT guidelines detailing "as many as you want" spare batteries under 8 grams details for the foreseeable future, though.

The only impact: that camera bag is a LOT heavier with four batteries in it!

Did you have to do anything as far as labeling them dangerous goods?

If so, what?

Thanks Bill! SFO is my airport of origin, so that's good to hear. It'd be nice to hear from anyone else who flies 'battery laden' (leaden?) over the next few weeks.

I just flew out of and back into SFO twice during the past week. No one ever asked to see my camera or batteries. I was traveling with a Sony EX1.

I think that it will be up to the local TSA people to enforce the rule as they see it which is very scary. I usually find the smaller the airport the worse they are about the rules. Also they tend to not have a full grasp of the rules as well.

Daniel Weber

Daniel, how did you tote the EX1?
Cheers.

I use a Portbrace Runbag, medium size.

It looks like a blue duffle bag and no one know that it has a camera in side unless you open it up. I travel a lot internationally and more and more I am finding that you want to hide your equipment when you pass through borders and customs. For the past 3 years this has served me well, first traveling with my Z1 and now with the EX1.

Dan

No, I didn't, and I don't think I'd want to! That's just asking for trouble...plus all my batteries are under the 8 gram rule, so I don't really consider them as "dangerous".

Except to my poor discs...

Just to show that fires can also happen on the ground.

http://www.reelchicago.com/story.cfm?StoryID=1794

That would be like placing a sticker on your bag saying that "I'm carrying a loaded gun!"

In the real world of checking in flight baggage, it depends less on the latest national or international 'baggage rules" but more on the temperament and knowledge of the actual person sitting behind the desk that checks in your baggage. The same rules apply to X-Ray machine scanning.

Our company's experience so far
 

This is a portion of an email from my boss regarding one of my coworkers.

"Ross and Doug traveled from Minneapolis to McCook, NB last week. The trip down was no problem but on the way home he was hassled big time. The TSA guy told him that they could only have 2 LI batteries (He had Sony BP95s) in his carry on and none in the checked bag so he and Doug each took 2 but that left one, there was one on the camera and he was traveling with 6 as this is what it usually takes to get through an 8 to 10 hour day. There was no way the TSA guy was going to let the "hazardous" material through and they could only have 2 each. He asked if he could call our contact down there to come and get it and the guy said he wasn't going to be responsible for that hazardous material laying around while they waited for the guy to come and get it. Then he asked about just disposing of it and he was told if he threw it in the trash they'd have to call HAZZMAT to take care of it. Finally the guy said there was a hazardous waste bin at the other end of the airport and he could dispose of it there. Now we are out a $650 battery and are running the risk of having this happen every time we travel. Ross had all his batteries individually wrapped in Ziploc bags and in his carry on and according to the TSA "

Like was said before depends on the TSA agent.

Which is why Li-Ion folks need to print out the news release from the Dept of Transportation website (which very clearly says you can have as many under 100-watt hour batteries as you like in your carry on) and take it with them. Also, get a letter on a company letterhead from IDX or AB or whichever battery supplier you use, and have them certify the watt hours or grams of Li-ion in the batteries.

If you get a TSA hardcase, politely ask to speak to the shift supervisor, and show him your paperwork.

So a TSA Agent in McCook Nebraska is the first hard case we hear about... while the agents in Minneapolis and SFO for example, have no problems.

Might we infer from this that the smaller the airport, the greater the likelihood of hassle???

I might add that we have all the IDX paperwork printed out. It's Sony that hasn't come out with their documentation yet. We have several calls in to varies people at Sony, but haven't heard boo yet.

Keeping your camera hidden
 

Two weeks ago, when boarding in Helena Montana the TSA folks somewhat testily had me remove my small Hi8 camcorder (my knockabout) from my backpack, telling me that laptops and videocameras "had to be removed and passed through the scanner separately" and then made me re-reun the backpack and camera in separate bins. That was the first I had heard that. Nothing was said about the Li ion batteries, but I only had 2.