JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

I have since Monday, the JVC GY-HM200.

Here is the link to JVC read the specs and features:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL102319

Have not "worked properly" I'm still trying and adjust.
And the first project will be available as HD camera.
As 4K camera then it will certainly filming in April or May of me.

My points that have the GY-HM200 for me as Alternatve for Sony PXW-X70:
- Bigger / more control knobs
- Focus ring / zoom ring / aperture wheel
- Remote as LANC (yes, the "right" with 2.5 mm jack) / no two adapter from Multi-interface / to AV-R / to 2,5mm. My existing Manfrotto remote works fine on both the Canon XA-25 as well as the GY-HM200
- Good light sensitivity (just as well as my XA25)
- "4K upgrade." (Cf. to PXW-X70) is already included.
- Data Rate 4K 150Mbit! (PXW-X70 only 60Mbit / 100Mbit AX100)
- HD 4: 2: 2 with 50Mbit
- Remote via WIFI or LAN included (without app download)
Etc. Included Streaming Youtube to U-Stream -
- Colors / contrast / look are "out of the box" very good / like my Canon XA25.
- Standard battery runs (in HD) 5hrs! 4K in 4.5 hours.
- Other details

Greeting
Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Andreas, I looked into the X70 for replacement of my X70, for the same features (manual controls most important) you listed.

You mention it is very good in low light, but I am pretty sure that is only at wide angle. At wide angle, the lens is rated at f1.2. At telephoto, that drops to f3.5. That is a 3 stop drop from wide to telephoto. Each stop of light loss requires 6db of gain to maintain brightness, so that would mean 18db of gain must be added when zooming in from wide to telephoto to maintain picture brightness!

Can you confirm if this is in fact true?

Danke! :-D

Paul

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

I am so glad someone bought one of these on this forum so we can see some comparison footage or at least an independent point of view.

Andreas, by chance, can you post one of your test shots?


Thanks,

Tim

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello Paul,

Yes its true that f1.2 is for Wide Angle.
And down to f3.5 at Telephoto.

BUT:
Its the same light sensitivity as my XA25 is on Telephoto with f3.5.
On Wide Angle (f1.2) the HM200 is better then my XA25!

So if you will have the "Same Sensivity" as the XA25 you can put at Wide Angle an f3.5 and have "no ramping" to max Telephoto (12x).
Or vice versa its good as the XA25, and with more sensivity at Wide Angle....

Greeting
Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello,

yes i can post some Test Shoots but early next week.
This week and Weekend i'm very busy with The HM200 first Job....

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

I can see the HM200 as a great daylight camera. Being the "same sensitivity" as the XA25 is a good indicator for daytime performance, but as I found with my X70, the lens limitations and gain up noise take a toll.

The XA25 matches the X70 at 18db in low light when the XA25 is at f1.8 and the X70 is at f2.8. In the end, the X70 can add 9db more gain, so it outperforms the XA25 in the dark. The HM200 would be at an EXTREME disadvantage against the X70 at night given your comparison with the XA25.

It really is a disappointment, because if it had the same 1 stop iris ramping as the X70, it would be the perfect camera for me and I would trade in my X70 for it. :(

Paul

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello Paul,

do you have an direct comparison between the X70 and the XA25 /20 (so do you have both)?

Here in this forum in an X70 Thread someone made (a Wedding shooting) a direct comparison.
And the difference between XA25 and X70 are not 18dB.
On his comparison there was only a little (i think 6dB)....
But i dont find the thread...

If its true that XA25 is 18dB more Gain nessesary (to the X70) then ok is the HM200 also less sensitive...

So its your decision...

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The X70 can GAIN UP 9db more (33db) than the XA25 (24db). The 18db reference is how the XA25 and X70 compare in the YouTube video below, when each is set to 18db wide open iris.

Obviously, if the X70 can gain UP an extra 9db, that is an extra stop and a half of brightness that can be added to it's picture.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello Paul,

ok i understand.

but how grainy is the X70 between 24dB and 33dB?
Is this in practice accceptable?

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Paul, with all respect, however I have the impression, that you are a little biased against JVC camcorders. Your calculations regarding the drop of sensitivity from f=1.2 to f=3,5 is indeed 18dB (JVC), while the drop of sensitivity from f=2.8 to f=4.5 is 8dB (Sony). However this is only part of the story, as the absolute light sensitivity of the JVC lens (f=1.2) and the Sony lens (f=2,8) shows a difference of 14.6dB in favor of the JVC lens. With other words, the Sony lens has a sensitivity difference at its widest iris of 14.6 dB. If you take this difference into account, the loss of the JVC from wide to tele (18 dB) needs to becorrected by 14.6 db if you compare absolute light sensitivity with the Sony X70.

The little graph underneath shows the relationships in a simple way:


-----JVC range 1.2 - 3.5
-----|------------------------------|

------------------------------Sony range 2.8 - 4.5
------------------------------|--------------|

1.0------1.4------2.0------2.8------4.0------5.6------8.0...

0dB-----6dB-----12dB---18dB---24dB---30dB---36dB each step drops light by 6db

In the comparison of the two camcorders one would have to add the light sensitivity of the CMOS chip. Assuming, that both camcorders have the same net number of pixels to represent 4K resolution, the Sony with its 1 inch sensor has about a fife times larger sensor surface compared to JVC with its 1/2.3 inch sensor. With up-to-date CMOS technology of both companies, this would give the Sony a sensitivity benefit of 14.5 dB (if both camcorders would have the same lens characteristics). As they have not the same lens characteristics (compare the above calculations), the Sony overcomes its sensitivity loss of 14.6 dB due to its smaler lens aperture by the gain of the larger CMOS chip of 14.5 dB.

Taking all this theoretical discussions, I would prefer to see a fair comparison of the two camcorders under identical low light conditions to get a "real-world" result.

Joachim

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hi,

good Speaking, Joachim. (ah aus der Frankurter Ecke - komme aus Stuttgart / Ludwigsburg).
Only a real world Test is the right way.

Because you dont know if that the JVC Sensor is better (than X70 Sensor).
Because the HM200 is brand new and the X70 (so the little Brother AX100) is more than One Year old.

So it CAN be possible the newer Sensor on the HM200 outperforms (in sensivity) the X70 Sensor...
...who knows?

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

JC, Andreas stated that the HM200 is similar to the XA25 at identical aperture, f3.5 in his comparison. In the YouTube video above, the XA25 at f1.8 matches the X70 at f2.8. Given that data, the X70 can expose 1 and 1/3 stops (8db) more light than the XA25, if it could open from f2.8 to f1.8, you would be able to observe that better. Since the HM200 can open up 6db of iris more than the XA25, the X70 would still have a slight db advantage wide open? My brain is swimming with f-stop conversions now, it feels like a stroke.

Regardless, all math aside, if the HM200 is similar to the XA25 at "workimng iris" stops, then it would have to turn into an A7s with that f1.2 apature. You can't have great XA25 sensitivity stopped down without insinuating that the darn little thing gets 18db BRIGHTER at wide open.

More math please, and Andreas, we loo forward to a direct gain by gain comparison of the HM200 vs XA25.

Paul

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

FYI. The JVC GY HM200 is finally "In Stock" at B&H. I am anxious to see some footage.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hi Paul,

On Friday i have a chance to make a small side by side comparison.
I will take some Photos from the LCD-Screen (from HM200 and XA25) with an "Test Scenario" that i "have constructed".
And an Frame of this "Test Scenario" from the Footage as a Full-HD Picture

Videos on Youtube can i get earliest next week.

So please be Patient...

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello,

I'm due to get an HM200 on loan from JVC for test purposes in the next week or so; happy to do some comparisons / answer any queries etc as well.

My X70 long ago went back to Sony's PR co but I've still got my XA20 so I'll happily do a comparison.

Regards
Dave

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello Dave,

good to hear that others will testing the HM200.
Please do some (Low-)light testing with same Gain / F-Stop / Shutter with the XA20 and the HM200.
I 'm wondering what else you are testing....

I'm very curious of your opinion.

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello,

I now have the test setup Canon XA25 made against JVC GY HM200.
Cameras white balance is in a hurry, almost 100%, but whatever.
The cameras are set so that the white part of the test chart just Zebra is 100%.

The room is pitch dark, the blinds are very let down.

The overall scene shows the test chart and fabric printing, illuminated only by an IKEA lamp.
The cameras can be seen in the dark in front and:

http://www.studio-perspective.de/Pro...amtszene_1.JPG



And here is a closer view of the test chart, the fuel pressure and the IKEA - lamp (in the dark weakly on the right) show


http://www.studio-perspective.de/Pro...estchart_1.JPG



Now the display of the XA25
Shutter: 1 / 50th
Gain: 12dB
Aperture: F3.2

http://www.studio-perspective.de/Pro...anonXA25_1.JPG


Now the display of the HM200
Shutter: 1 / 50th
Gain: 12dB
Aperture: F 5.0

http://www.studio-perspective.de/Pro...JVCHM200_1.JPG



The frame grabs from the footage will follow later.

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Wow, if you opened up the HM200 to f3.2, you would be able to show the same sensitivity at 3db! I am very impressed.

M station will only buy JVC cameras, and I am wanting them to procure a small live shot camera like the HM200, but it needs to be able to see in the dark at least as good as the X70.

Looks promising, *crossing fingers*!

Paul

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello,

here the frame grabs .

Canon XA25 :

http://www.studio-perspective.de/Pro...eich/Canon.jpg



And the JVC GY HM200 :

http://www.studio-perspective.de/Pro...gleich/JVC.jpg



Note:

The fuel pressure looks like " grainy ".
This is the material and has nothing to do with noise of the camera .


My conclusion on the JVC HM200:

Very good camera .
Matches the XA25 (experience from yesterday - live jobs)
Both in terms of color characteristics as well as sensitivity.

What 4K (or UHD ) concerning JVC HM200 I have until next week time ( Wed or Thurs ) .

But as much advance :
visually it gets after the switch to 4K no darker ( on the display) .

Follow frame grabs ....

greeting
Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello,

have now taken some time to test the 4K mode.

The camera is definitely 6dB darker in the 4K mode.
On a FHD monitor 6dB Gain still looks pretty good.
12dB Gain is no longer acceptable.

Now I have to buy an SDXC UHS 3 card.
Because the camera denied all SDHC / XC with only Class 10.
Whether 64GB or 32GB I can not format and the display shows "incorrect".

What recommendation for a SDXC UHS 3 card do you have?

I further reports, wenns what's new.

greeting
Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Would you consider the 30-36db gain settings in HD mode to be acceptable for NEWS? On my other JVC ProHD cameras, anything above 18db is some sort of special LoLux mode and the contrast goes to heck and everything is super-noise and blacks turn light grey.

My X70 will do 30db pretty sweet, then that 33db step introduces a slight grey out, but can still be considered news acceptable.

Paul

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hi Paul,

the Lolux 30-36db gain setting is IN MY EYES not accepatble.

I dont know what "sort and amount of grain" is for you "news acceptable".
Because i dont make news.

I had checked it in HD Mode and there is as you say "super-noise and blacks turn light grey".
IN MY EYES 18dB or max 24dB is acceptable for news.

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

is the 422 HD format 8 bit or 10 bit?

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Hello Ugo,

Internal is 8 Bit.
But there is no statement from JVC if the HDMI or the 3G-SDI is 8 Bit or 10 Bit for external recording

Andreas

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

regards

there is a chance to have a very very short native footage in 4k and hd 422 just to check if media composer can import it?

Thanks
Ugo

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

In the specifications part of the manual you will find definitions of SMPTE standards for various SDI-settings. In case of 3G-SDI, SMPTE ST424 is listed.

Within ST424 there is a description of the video payload. It says:

"Color encoding

Several color encodings are possible in the serial digital interface. The default (and most common case) is 10-bit linearly sampled video data encoded as 4:2:2 YCbCr."
.....

Other color encodings

The dual-link and 3 Gbit/s interfaces additionally support other color encodings besides 4:2:2 YCbCr, namely:
4:2:2 and 4:4:4 YCbCr, with an optional alpha (used for chroma keying) or data (used for non-video payload) channel
4:4:4 RGB, also with an optional alpha or data channel
4:2:2 YCbCr, 4:4:4 YCbCr, and 4:4:4 RGB, with 12 bits of color information per sample, rather than 10. Note that the interface itself is still 10 bit; the additional 2 bits per channel are multiplexed into an additional 10-bit channel on the second link."

According to this description, there is only a 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 format with 10 bit defined as standard. So I am convinced, that the SDI sneds 10bit 4:2:2 YCbCr video format. Be aware, that according to the standard SDI only sends in SD- or HD-format, not in 4K. 4K is probably only sent via HDMI. This is also said in JVC's specification for this camcorder. There it says:

...
Live 4K UHD output via HDMI connector
...

•HD-SDI (3G) and HDMI outputs (4K output via HDMI only)
...

Joachim

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

GY HM200 footage and initial thoughts on the camera here.

Shooting with the JVC GY-HM200: 4K handheld camcorder

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Thanks for posting this Kevin. There doesn't seem to be much out there from this camera, not even from JVC which I find surprising.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

I am surprised at the lack of marketing for this camera as well. As a JVC HM150 owner, I am very interested in how this camera performs. I really like the form factor of the JVC's and look forward to more footage being posted. The reviewer states that he is going to do more tests like low light, HD recording, etc so be on the lookout. I suppose that JVC has been so entrenched in promoting the LS300 that they have forgotten that the HM200 would seem to have a much wider market in terms of sheer numbers of potential users.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Thanks Kevin, well done
I have few questions please:
1. the remote, lanc (wired): is it compatible with the sony protocol or proprietary?
2. stabilization handholding : how is it?
3. the zoom rocker: how is it? :)
4. rolling shutter and blur panning in both HD and 4K: is it manageable?

other than that I wouldn't compare this camera to the X70 simply because this camera works and the X70 is still in progress (for months now): so let's compare it to other cameras that actually work.

Totally agree about the benefits of a smaller sensor regarding a bit longer DOF for run-and-gun shoots,where there is no time to adjust anything. And again regarding the size of the sensor we should stop and meditate about the iphone (with that big 1mm lens!) and like somebody said in another forum compare it to a big expensive camera of the past like.. say .. the EX3? so for once it looks (to me) that size doesn't really matter (if you think iphone for a minute) and that's a fact, not fiction. so let's judge with our eyes instead of following the marketing flow around the motion pictures industry (proven wrong by the first D90, actually caught with the pants down by the first D90 :)

Like you said , Kevin: what counts are the "pictures" .... and I completely agree

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

I read that you tested clips with FCPX. If you can send me a small clip in 4k and in HD I can test with Avid Media Composer (PC side)

Regards

Ugo

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

You can access 4K H.264 150Mbp/s demo footage files on this web page: JVC Pro Video Clips

- Craig

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

the ergonomics are much much better than the X70 . Plus it works with any editor right now and we don't have to pay for the updates. But most importantly it works in 50Mbps 4:2:2 in HD with no maybes and no buts and no idiotic proprietary containers like the XAVC-L (that still doesn't work with Vegas or FCP -the ones that count!)

I see that's not touch screen, but I also see that sports one of the best face recognition in the market. I know how that works for the HM600 and that's impressive (interviews with the ability to switch from the interviewer to the talent and vice-versa , all in AF moving with the joystick on the LCD (so with the left hand).

The white Balance is a little complicated to set on the fly (but always better and less complicated than the X70 that doesn't even show on the screen while changing it- You change it and Then it shows the colors).

The AF can be fine tuned for speed and that's also good to have.

streams on Ustream easily, VERY easily.

The pictures are stunning, simply put. 4K doesn't give too much RS, more or less like HD

Ok I don't think that Sony will fix the XAVC-L nonsense any time soon , so I went for this HM200 instead because I was sick and tired of the incompatibility of that proprietary container that nobody uses (beside edius and catalyst and few others that don't really matter)

so well done to JVC , and I also appreciate that Craig is here , that means a lot guys!

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

I see LS 300 footage and 2 clips discussing the HM200 but no footage from that camera. Is there some anywhere else Craig?

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

The footage suggestion is meant to test the 4K 150Mbps H.264 fiile on your existing NLE.

Footage for the GY-HM200 will be posted on its respective web page. In the meantime, Rick Young has shot some footage with the HM200 which, subjectively, is quite stunning.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

This camera looks great. I don't need 4K but the 50Mbps and 4:2:2 I'm interested in.

Is the sensor 1 x 2/3rd inch

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

no, it's 1/2.33" , the same as the gopro hero 3 or Panasonic HX-A500. still a little bigger than 1/3"

the size is 7.8mm diagonal , the AX100 or X70 is 15.86 (pretty much twice as big). to stay in the video standards let's say that's very close to half inch sensors like the EX1 (8mm diagonal)

but the pictures in HD are stunning, no difference with the X70 (well.. almost: meaning that the HM200 looks cleaner , even at high ISO or DB). I have both (but I'll sell the X70 soon). Practically the only noticeable difference is about the DOF.

But for a run&gun kind of shooting or sports the HM200 is definitely better because the AF gets more chances to stay in the face of people for example.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

thanks for the link, Avid Media Composer 8.3.1 can play with the clips using direct import or AMA link

compared to sony AX100 how is the JVC GY-HM170 (the 200 is too expensive for me).

Is JVC a good brand compared to Sony and Canon?

Regards

Ugo

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Any chance Anthony that you could shoot a little footage with both cameras in a low light situation and post them on line? I often do video of church events and am at the mercy of their lighting and wondering how these two cameras compare. I really hope that the HM200 works well because it would be perfect for me.

Re: JVC GY-HM200 - alternative to Sony PXW-X70
 

Same request from me Anthony. Would like to see how each camera does at night, wide open iris.

Would be most demonstrative to shoot full wide wide open iris on both, then zoom in full optical then digital zoom to show the lens ramping. 3 stops of light loss seems insane on the JVC, would really like to see how well it compares against the Sony at maximum telephoto. Then to top it off, do something to show adding lots of gain till each camera is maxed out at wide and then telephoto. The X70 falls apart at high gain when you get into the digital ClearImage zoom range. The JVC doesn't have as many pixels to play with, so maybe it falls apart faster along with the iris closing down so much needing even more gain.

Most interesting test I can think of is very dark, both cameras at maximum gain wide open iris at full wide and full optical telephoto. :-)

Paul