What's the low light rating of this camera? at DVinfo.net

Christopher Toderman · November 10th, 2003, 01:50 PM

What's the low light rating of this camera? 35 Lux was indicated in Japanese HD1 literature.

Frank Granovski · November 10th, 2003, 02:12 PM

I believe you already know this, Christopher. It's LUX requirements have been discussed before on this forum.

Christopher Toderman · November 10th, 2003, 04:06 PM

I want to know what is the manufacturer's spec as it appears to be missing from the US specs, and this spec is measured per standard protocol. The US model may be different than the early Japanese release, and whatever was discussed that I am aware of indicates better than 35 Lux. If You Frank know the actual rating, what is it? Still I would prefer to hear this from JVC.

Jeff Donald · November 10th, 2003, 04:18 PM

What standard protocol is there for measuring lux? I'm not aware of any ISO, SMPTE, or even Trade Association standard for these cameras and lux ratings and measurements. You may want to contact JVC directly as their representatives are infrequent visitors.

Barry Green · November 10th, 2003, 05:09 PM

Panasonic's stated measurement for the DVX is 3 lux, which they define as f/1.6, +18db gain, yields video output at 50 IRE. I imagine they're shooting a white card to get those results.

I don't know how standardized this formula may be, but it seems that all they're doing is seeing how much light is necessary (under optimal conditions) to deliver 50 IRE on a scope. Seems like a reasonable formula.

Jeff Donald · November 10th, 2003, 06:16 PM

What are they shooting? At what color bandwidth, even in pro cameras full color bandwidth is not measured in their lux ratings. Let's face it, there is no standard.

Chris Hurd · November 11th, 2003, 12:05 AM

Not only is there no "real" standard, but in this particular case the issue may be entirely irrelevant. It's always best to add light in order to achieve higher production values anyway.

These JVC HDV camcorders are not advertised as being exceptionally good in low light. If someone needed to shoot in a low light situation, hopefully they'll select a camcorder which has a known strength for that capacity, such as the Sony VX2000.

If someone is interested in taking the time to shoot in the new HDV format with a $3000 camcorder, then hopefully they're also interested in lighting scenes properly.

Choose the right tool for the right job. This is not a wedding cam. How could the lux rating even matter for this camcorder? No one is claiming it to be exceptional in low light, it's not a known strongpoint for the camera, therefore the issue is irrelevant, but that's just my own opinion.

Christopher Toderman · November 11th, 2003, 04:03 AM

Japanese manufacturers definitely have a standard formula. 50 IRE and max gain are probably correct. Although the same formula is supposedly used by all, some are more conservative than others. E.g. Sony is more conservative than Hitachi. When they private labeled Digital 8 for Hitachi, a camera with basically the same everything happened to have 1/3 the lux figure of the Sony's equivalent. Within one label they are consistent. I emailed JVC in the past as to what is the Lux rating, but got no response. A rep told me that he does not know. So everyone asumes that this camera needs a lot of light, but the lack of this manufacturer's spec on a $3000 camera is ridiculous. If it existed, one could more or less compare the sensitivity easier to other JVC cameras, and from there to other brands.

Jeff Donald · November 11th, 2003, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Japanese manufacturers definitely have a standard formula. 50 IRE and max gain are probably correct.

Probably is not a standard and no Japanese manufacture acknowledges a standard in this area.

Quote:

Within one label they are consistent.

No, the manufactures are not consistent. Consumer, prosumer and professional cameras are all measured differently. LUX has been turned into nothing but a marketing ploy by the manufactures. Until there is an agreed upon standard means of testing cameras, it is a useless figure.

Quote:

So everyone assumes that this camera needs a lot of light, but the lack of this manufacturer's spec on a $3000 camera is ridiculous.

No it's not, because the number is just a marketing figure. But a little common sense will tell you that a LUX rating would be higher than your average camera in this price range. Consumers are easily mislead by LUX ratings (because there is no standard) but use that number to make purchasing decisions. JVC is not inclined to rate this camera, using their method, and publish the higher LUX rating of this camera. It would hurt sales.

But if you're looking for a good camera to shoot weddings with, Christopher, just say so and we can recommend one.

Frank Granovski · November 11th, 2003, 05:34 AM

Joseph, here's everything you should know about lux and why these lux ratings are misleading:

http://www.dvfreak.com/lux.htm

(Because acceptable video in low light is subjective.)

Yang Wen · November 11th, 2003, 11:03 AM

I believe what Christopher was getting at is to get a general ball-park of the lowlight capability of this cam.

Les Dit · November 11th, 2003, 07:31 PM

That 50 ire spec would be a riot!
You guys know that the lux rating means nothing at all with out a noise figure that goes along with it.
A cheap ccd , with a 5hit load of ccd gain can make any video level , if at least some of the ccd well capacity was filled. But the noise would be outrageous!!!!
Until they define a standard, say a defined pixel value standard deviation in the image histogram, the lux ratings are just sales droid numbers.

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Toderman : Japanese manufacturers definitely have a standard formula. 50 IRE and max gain are probably correct. Although the same formula is supposedly used by all, some are more conservative than others. E.g. Sony is more conservative than Hitachi. When they private labeled Digital 8 for Hitachi, a camera with basically the same everything happened to have 1/3 the lux figure of the Sony's equivalent. Within one label they are consistent. I emailed JVC in the past as to what is the Lux rating, but got no response. A rep told me that he does not know. So everyone asumes that this camera needs a lot of light, but the lack of this manufacturer's spec on a $3000 camera is ridiculous. If it existed, one could more or less compare the sensitivity easier to other JVC cameras, and from there to other brands. -->>>

November 10th, 2003, 01:50 PM	#1
Christopher Toderman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York Posts: 60	Question for JVC What's the low light rating of this camera? 35 Lux was indicated in Japanese HD1 literature.

November 10th, 2003, 04:18 PM	#4
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	What standard protocol is there for measuring lux? I'm not aware of any ISO, SMPTE, or even Trade Association standard for these cameras and lux ratings and measurements. You may want to contact JVC directly as their representatives are infrequent visitors. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

November 10th, 2003, 06:16 PM	#6
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	What are they shooting? At what color bandwidth, even in pro cameras full color bandwidth is not measured in their lux ratings. Let's face it, there is no standard. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

November 11th, 2003, 12:05 AM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Not only is there no "real" standard, but in this particular case the issue may be entirely irrelevant. It's always best to add light in order to achieve higher production values anyway. These JVC HDV camcorders are not advertised as being exceptionally good in low light. If someone needed to shoot in a low light situation, hopefully they'll select a camcorder which has a known strength for that capacity, such as the Sony VX2000. If someone is interested in taking the time to shoot in the new HDV format with a $3000 camcorder, then hopefully they're also interested in lighting scenes properly. Choose the right tool for the right job. This is not a wedding cam. How could the lux rating even matter for this camcorder? No one is claiming it to be exceptional in low light, it's not a known strongpoint for the camera, therefore the issue is irrelevant, but that's just my own opinion. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 11th, 2003, 07:31 PM	#12
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	that is so funny! That 50 ire spec would be a riot! You guys know that the lux rating means nothing at all with out a noise figure that goes along with it. A cheap ccd , with a 5hit load of ccd gain can make any video level , if at least some of the ccd well capacity was filled. But the noise would be outrageous!!!! Until they define a standard, say a defined pixel value standard deviation in the image histogram, the lux ratings are just sales droid numbers. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Toderman : Japanese manufacturers definitely have a standard formula. 50 IRE and max gain are probably correct. Although the same formula is supposedly used by all, some are more conservative than others. E.g. Sony is more conservative than Hitachi. When they private labeled Digital 8 for Hitachi, a camera with basically the same everything happened to have 1/3 the lux figure of the Sony's equivalent. Within one label they are consistent. I emailed JVC in the past as to what is the Lux rating, but got no response. A rep told me that he does not know. So everyone asumes that this camera needs a lot of light, but the lack of this manufacturer's spec on a $3000 camera is ridiculous. If it existed, one could more or less compare the sensitivity easier to other JVC cameras, and from there to other brands. -->>>

November 10th, 2003, 02:12 PM	#2
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	I believe you already know this, Christopher. It's LUX requirements have been discussed before on this forum.

November 10th, 2003, 04:06 PM	#3
Christopher Toderman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York Posts: 60	I want to know what is the manufacturer's spec as it appears to be missing from the US specs, and this spec is measured per standard protocol. The US model may be different than the early Japanese release, and whatever was discussed that I am aware of indicates better than 35 Lux. If You Frank know the actual rating, what is it? Still I would prefer to hear this from JVC.

November 10th, 2003, 05:09 PM	#5
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Panasonic's stated measurement for the DVX is 3 lux, which they define as f/1.6, +18db gain, yields video output at 50 IRE. I imagine they're shooting a white card to get those results. I don't know how standardized this formula may be, but it seems that all they're doing is seeing how much light is necessary (under optimal conditions) to deliver 50 IRE on a scope. Seems like a reasonable formula.

November 11th, 2003, 04:03 AM	#8
Christopher Toderman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York Posts: 60	Japanese manufacturers definitely have a standard formula. 50 IRE and max gain are probably correct. Although the same formula is supposedly used by all, some are more conservative than others. E.g. Sony is more conservative than Hitachi. When they private labeled Digital 8 for Hitachi, a camera with basically the same everything happened to have 1/3 the lux figure of the Sony's equivalent. Within one label they are consistent. I emailed JVC in the past as to what is the Lux rating, but got no response. A rep told me that he does not know. So everyone asumes that this camera needs a lot of light, but the lack of this manufacturer's spec on a $3000 camera is ridiculous. If it existed, one could more or less compare the sensitivity easier to other JVC cameras, and from there to other brands.

November 11th, 2003, 05:34 AM	#10
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Joseph, here's everything you should know about lux and why these lux ratings are misleading: http://www.dvfreak.com/lux.htm (Because acceptable video in low light is subjective.)

November 11th, 2003, 11:03 AM	#11
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	I believe what Christopher was getting at is to get a general ball-park of the lowlight capability of this cam.