What other HD cams are coming out?
 

Besides the JVCs, which other low-cost HD cams are on the way?

Me? I'd like one that shoots 1080 HD 24fps, 1 or 3 chip, optional lenses or at least an adapter to allow extra lenses to be added onto it...

I saw footage from the JVC, and while it looks great, it could be better color-wise.

Perhaps NAB 2004 will reveal some new consumer MPEG2 HD cams.

No announcements have been made from any manufacturer yet.

The HDV standard was endorsed by JVC, Sony, Canon and Sharp, so it's reasonable to expect that those companies could be working on new HDV cameras. The HDV standard calls for 1440 x 1080 at 50i and at 60i, as well as 1280 x 720 at 25p, in addition to the 720/30P offered by the JVC.

You will not see 1080/24P. That was not included in the official standard (although, that standard is subject to revision, I guess).

rumored new hdv cams
 

In the dv.com forums I found a bit about what might appear at NAB 2004. Of course, probably just a rumor, but a part of me thinks, what if it's not a rumor!

"Canon will be introducing HDV camcorder with separate lenses and 3 CCDs. It will have 16:9 chips and 24p. It will shoot 720p and will represent serious competition to the Varicam image-quality-wise, less the slow motion feature."

You can find the whole, original post and dissenting replies here:


http://dv.com/jive3/thread.jspa?thre...00242&tstart=0

Re: What other HD cams are coming out?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Ted Bragg : Besides the JVCs, which other low-cost HD cams are on the way?

Me? I'd like one that shoots 1080 HD 24fps, 1 or 3 chip, optional lenses or at least an adapter to allow extra lenses to be added onto it...

I saw footage from the JVC, and while it looks great, it could be better color-wise. -->>>

Hi Ted,

How much are you willing to pay for a 3-chip version?

- don

I wish they didn't fixate on the HDV standard. It's a shame that mpeg2 is still being used for future products. The limit they will be bumping into with HDV , quality wise, will be the Mpeg2 compression. Mpeg4 looks the same at half the bits per second.
While it may take a while longer to get Mpeg4 compression engine chips to work at HD rates, it's coming. Look at the new Panasonic micro camcorder, it uses no tape, and does mpeg4.
Mpeg2 is so 'nineties' tech.
-Les

It is exciting that Canon is (possibly) getting ready to launch an XL2, it will be a nice machine for sure, but the $price will be high. $6000 list or higher is my guess. As well we know the JVC engineers can't be sitting on their asses this whole time, so expect an XL2 rival from JVC at the same time. JVC is not going to pioneer this new tech than roll over and die. The HD10 may hold a niche for a while yet given its price.
Ken

How soon do things hit the market after NAB?

They could be announced for immediate availability, or they could take months. The DVX100 was announced at an NAB show in April 2002, but was also announced that it wouldn't be available until October.

Sometimes manufacturers show product that they have no definite release date for.

So just because something may be announced at NAB, that's no guide as to when it may be available -- it could be days, weeks, months, years... it all depends on the particular product announcement.

CES 2004
 

I know nothing about how or when these companies introduce their products, but I heard that the CES is in Vegas this upcoming weekend - I assume camcorders fall into this category. Does anything ever get announced at these shows? I am about to buy a HD1 from B&H - should I wait til after the show (in case Sony/Canon announces a camera or something)?

Just curious if anyone knows or has advice?

Thank you Barry for that information.

Evan, I would wait just because the JVC is the primitive HD camcorder at the moment... If Canon comes out with an HD cam it will blow away the JVC... Save your money... But it's understandable if you have a project you want to do and you don't want to wait around any longer. That's kind of the position I'm in at the moment.... Waiting for the right cam... (sigh)

Mark, the project (so to speak) is due soon - my wife is 7 months pregnant and I want to have a camcorder before my baby boy is born - I am running out of time to wait for Canon and so I am probably going to bit the bullet and go with the HD1.

My guess is if something else is announced it will be expensive. It won't cost less than a HD1 for sure. JVC was getting little market penetration and so had little to loose by pushing this cam. Canon and Sony will not be introducing HDV cams to compete with their successful consumer lines, at least not initially. So if your already getting a HD1 over a HD10 than I think your purchase is safe.
Ken

Tell your wife to at least wait until April's NAB. The "serious" camcorders won't be announced at January's CES.

Not going to wait.
 

Lynne, I can assure you that she will not agree to waiting an extra month - in fact I think it would probably be best that I don't even propose the idea. So, it looks like I will be putting in my HD1 order this week.

Evan - Bite the HD10 bullet, please!
 

It has been stated time and time again in these forums, but the HD-10's features make the extra $500 well worth it.

If memory serves, the HD-10 has a higher resolution viewfinder and/or LCD, more sophisticated image processing (most notably a more subtle edge enhancement), the XLR adapter, and built-in color bars.

Even if you don't need the more "pro" features of the HD-10, I'm thinking there are still valid reasons to spend the extra money. A better viewfinder will make it easier to focus the camera, which is all the more critical when shooting in HD. The edge enhancement is supposedly heavy handed on both cameras, but less so on the 10 vs the 1. You'll want to start out with the best image possible for those once in a lifetime memories. Lastly, you will at some point want to sell this camera when the new crop of (vastly superior? Let's hope!) HDV cams come out. I just don't think the HD-1 will have nearly the resale value of the HD-10.

the debate goes on
 

Scott-

I have been having this debate in my head for a few weeks now and have gone back and forth many times. I decided last night not to bite the bullet, but instead to save some money. However, I will always welcome your arguments as I would much rather make the right decision.

Let me start by saying that I will likely be using this 100% for personal use and mostly simply to capture family moments, etc. I am a professional photographer and so my interest and abilities go beyond the average consumer, but I have no video experience and am still quite partial to still images. I could see myself getting a little more into video, but never will have time to do major stuff. I am a big HDTV fan and an early adopter - thus the HD1 or HD10.

Now, it should be stated that I find the price difference more around $1000 - because JVC has a $400 rebate when you buy the HD1 and a DVHS recorder (which I'd like to buy) and the initial price difference is $600 at B&H where I plan on buying it. With that said - I have decided to go HD1 because: 1) the XLR inputs and color bars are pretty irrelevant to me. 2) the better viewfinder would be nice but not worth more than a few $100 (unless someone tells me that the lesser ability to focus will greatly decrease my output on a consistent basis). 3) The edge enhancement issue has been the big sticking point, but after many trips in circles and without the ability to really compare them for myself (no place that has both) - I decided that for my purposes the video would still look spectacular and paying $2000 rather than $3000 is very significant - no matter how you cut it.

As far as resell goes - like I said I am not really big into video and hope that with this purchase - I will ride the camera out through many generations of improvements and thus the resale in the end will be minimal either way.

So, the $1000 in my pocket and having a nice HD camcorder - seems like the way to go for me. Please tell me again if you think I am making a huge mistake. I still don't fully understand what the "bad edge enhancement" looks like. Is it so bad that i may as well save another $1000 and buy a DV953 instead? Will most still think that the image is incredible? Is this more an issue for people trying to sell the video - or will it bother me also? Can any filters (SoftFX) maybe tone down the edge enhancement and bring the quality closer to the HD10?

I am more than willing to spend the extra $1000 if I think that it is worth while and significantly increases the quality of the video - but if it is just "a little nicer" - I'd save the money for something else. I am already making the leap from $1200 that I was considering spending on the DV953 to $2400 for the HD1 - so I am not afraid to make that next leap, but it has to be worth it. I welcome everyone’s opinion.

I will hold off a little longer on my purchase to hear your feedback.

Thank you to everyone, in advance for their input.

On the viewfinder, You end up not using it much. The LCD is easier to use. The LCD is the same on both.I have yet to use the viewfinder on my HD10.
I use a hood on the LCD outdoors.
-Les

Evan, you've oviously done your homework. For your purposes, I may have come to exactly the same decision myself. Thanks, Les. I couldn't remember if it was the viewfinder or LCD or both. I agree that the LCD is the main weapon of choice.

I think the question you have to ask now, like most tech purchases, is how long can you stand to have an outdated camcorder? I pity the folks who bought a DVX-100 in September. Something new is always right around the corner. Although I don't hold out much hope for an HD Canon XL-2 at this year's NAB, I do suspect that at least 1 or 2 HDV cams will be released by the end of 2004. Keep in mind that this is totally unscientific, and not based on any insider knowledge. It's just my 6th sense, having attended the last 8 NAB's and having developed a strong sense of development timelines and where the market is headed.

The edge enhancement looks like too much Sharpen+Unsharp Mask filter in Photoshop. Too much contrast, but only on the edges of objects. It can be less noticable at 30fps, but still annoying to the discerning viewer. That said, I know that well-shot footage from the HD-1 is still mighty impressive. It's just when you start pushing the limitations of the camera that the image falls apart. That's the way it goes with all video, come to think of it.

Considering that your main use for the next few years will be watching home movies on your great big HDTV, I think that the HD-1 is a much better choice than even the best DV cam. Nothing points out the limitations of NTSC than up-rezzing it to HD. You may be blown away by the imagery of the HD-1. I certainly was when I saw it at CES for the first time. You may decide the image is fine as is, or learn to expose very carefully so as to not push the limitations of the camera. You might try a combination of low contrast, ND or pola filters as has already been discussed at length on these boards. The photgrapher in you already knows all of this by heart.

Either way, I'm envious. My 2-year old is only going to have DV footage to watch when he grows up.

thanks Scott for your thoughtful responses. Hearing confirmation that my choice is a good one from someone who had originally said "you must get the HD10" is very helpful. I think i am ready to make the plunge - one more night to sleep on it.

Thanks everyone.

Ken,

How do you know that Canon and Sony won't be coming out with an HD camcorder? Can you please provide supporting facts?

Mark- I never said Sony and Canon won't be coming out with an HD cam.

Ken

Ken,

One of your previous replies states:

"Canon and Sony will not be introducing HDV cams to compete with their successful consumer lines, at least not initially."

I'm asking how you know this?

Your misunderstanding. I am saying they won't be comming out with "consumer" cams. They very well may come out with "Pro" or high end cams. But they will be expensive.
This was in regard to Evans decision on wether to but a HD1 or not.
Ken

Is there a difference between prosumer and high end?

Yeah, the "prosumer" stuff is made for people on tight budgets. However, need "pro" features to complete their work.

The only problem with prosumer gear is that the companies who make the cameras don't include EVERY dream feature. It's usually a stripped down version of their best cams..you can almost achieve the same results, but not exactly. I can understand their position...and truly appreciate it when they step up to the plate.

In my opinion, the Sony PD-150 is perfect example of a "prosumer" camera. It's got everything you need to shoot "pro" stuff in the realm of DV. However, it's lacking enough resolution and such that it doesn't compete with their top of the line. It's a good balence in my opinion because your talents can be utilized with the camera...and you'll kick some butt, then you'll make some money..and eventually upgrade to the best. If you have talent - prosumer gear works very nicely. Another example of prosumer is Final Cut Pro. That editing software is only $999! It's definately proven itself, so anyone willing to shovel 25 driveways for a month (in the Northeast) or shine 100 surfboards in the south.....you've got yourself a great prosumer editing package!

In short, prosumer is the key word for a working stiff in the business of video or digital filmmaking. If you're good...you can make your way up the chain. Maybe we can start a seperate thread entiled, "The Best Prosumer Gear with Ratings!"

I'd like to see an updated list of that from time to time....

Murph

NAB rumor of a Sony camera
 

I've heard about a rumor of a possible 3 chip Sony camera that will actually be SD chips that are electronically uprezzed to HDV. This is a rumor for now, but if true, I'm not sure about the SD uprezzed to HDV...

heath

Kind of the reverse of JVC's PAL cam that is down res'ed to SD.

Ken

Isn't this what the HD10 does? SD chip uprezzing to HD? Or am I totally wrong?

heath

back to my HD1 decision
 

I just wanted to thank everyone for all of their input and let you know that I did end up buying the HD1 - it should be here in a few days.

Thanks again.

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Isn't this what the HD10 does? SD chip uprezzing to HD? Or am I totally wrong?

heath -->>>

Single chip consumer DV cameras typically have about 680,000 effective pixels using R,G,B pattern (ignoring the still photo abilities which can inflate the pixel count.) This JVC camera has 1,180,000 effective pixels using a L,C,Y,G pattern. In 16:9 HD mode the JVC cameras uses 840,000 pixels (native), a SD equivalent in 16:9 only uses around 500,000 pixels (that is digitally scaled without an anamorphic lens.) The 70% more pixel count and the improved luma resolution gives this CCD a good wack at entery level HD. Now this might be a re-tasked comsumer still CCD that can output all it 840,000 at 30fps (I have no idea), but the important thing to note is that this is not uprezzing SD to HD.

David,

Thanks for the answer. It makes sense (for once...:-).)

heath

Evan, congrats on the baby!

I did the same thing you're doing. I didn't listen to the smart folks on this forum. I convinced myself the edge enhancement issue was not a big deal. I agree with your evaluation of HD10 features completely too. You won't use the viewfinder and the mike jacks, well, who cares unless you've got the mikes to plug into them. But...

I purchased mine just before Christmas. I ran four tapes through it and got a good feel for it, learned how to control it and learned how to use ND filters and CP filters for outdoors, learned the effects of shutter speeds, etc. and read and tried everything I could from this wonderful forum. I play my video on a 115" HD screen (1280 X 1024 scaled and compressed in the vertical on a projection system that resolves 2500 X 2000 and has a 300 MHz bandwidth).

I have to say that I'm selling the HD1 now because the edge enhancement IS painful. If you watch the results on anything other than a regular sized TV, you will be painfully aware of the edge enhancement and it is not correctable. It is OBVIOUS as heck if you get a bit of sky in your shot, or shoot a snow covered landscape, or anything contrasty! Don't let anyone tell you different. The problem is you will end up subconciously looking for these edge problems (and finding them!). It's very probably that it will end up reducing the enjoyment you get from your video. You can do things to get it under control when filming, but you WON'T be doing those things when you try and spontaneously capture your new baby's beauty. There are no re-takes either...

I don't exactly regret my purchase of the HD1, because I got a "Free" D-VHS VCR and I was able to truely evaluate the HD1 and find out it was truely lacking in that one (and only one, IMHO) department. It has other issues, but they are all mute by comparison. It's a nice useable camera, but the extra money is well worth getting rid of the horizontal insertion of THICK black lines! My VCR is no longer free, however, because I'm going to loose at least $200-$400 selling the HD1 (purchase price of $2099 and resale is not so good!!!).

HD10, here I come! Gosh, I really hope the edge enhancement is much less of a problem! (please?)

So, look at it this way. You are borrowing the HD1 and evaluating it so that you can get a discount on your D-VHS VCR. You'll see about the edges... Make sure you dump the HD1 while you still have a chance (and before you really need the camera)!!!

- GLupien

Gordon,

Good assessment on the HD1. I've heard similar stories, unfortunately.

heath