HD10 to 35mm/please help & suggestions

[Ken Hodson]

You could Analog component out from the cam to a SDI convertor to HDCam deck. Or upconvert. No loss there. But I have a feeling that HDCam could probably accept 720p natively.

[Doug Turner]

Bob, just buy the PAL equivalent from a reputable online vendor...

http://www.jvc.co.uk/product.php?id=GR-PD1EK&catid=11&lid=,

I believe it'll shoot at 25p and be easier to convert to 24p.

Most film festivals allow your film to be shown on Digi Beta or even DVD these days... so why spend your retirement money on a 35mm transfer?

In a couple of years time, it'll all be HD anyway, and we'll all wonder why we used film in the first place.

Ta, Doug.

[Les Dit]

Bob, I used Vegas and just told it to render at 24 fps.
Works for me.
Sometimes the simple method does just fine.
With less camera shake ( the OIS on the JVC is sheer crap, BTW ) the footage would look a lot nicer.

There is no PAL version of the JVC that shoots 1280 x 720 video. They crippled it on purpose, to protect their pro market.
-Les



<<<-- Originally posted by Bob James : Les Dit: I love the look of the JVC that's why I want to use it. The quality of your skater video was awesome. Did you use that DVFilmMaker program to convert to 24?

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Thanks. -->>>

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

There is no D1 with 10 bit.
D1 is uncompressed 8 bit YUV 4:2:2.
Digital Betacam is 10 bit, but has lossy compression.(although after 5 generations I still can't see an artifact)

[Bob James]

Thanks guys. I will be going with the JVC over the Panasonic. I found a place locally to rent a HDCam deck. So I'll transfer to that in the end.


Thanks again.

[Barry Green]

Originally posted by Les Dit : There is no PAL version of the JVC that shoots 1280 x 720 video. They crippled it on purpose, to protect their pro market.

Er, more likely it's because there's no such thing as HD in Europe and other PAL countries. Not now, and no real appetite for it in the future.

Protect what pro market? JVC makes (or made) D-9 cameras and equipment, but they don't make any HD product. What market would they be protecting? If they were purposefully crippling it to protect their D-9 product, why wouldn't they have crippled it in the US as well?

[Les Dit]

Barry,
I'm not up to speed on HD in the EU, but I do remember a few years back that pretty much all the TV sets I saw in the dept. stores were wide screen over there.

I think in the US, they felt that the 30 fps and the lack of manual controls for exposure would be crippling enough. Leaving off manual controls is so strategic. It was no blunder.

You do know that JVC ( Victor company of Japan, Ltd ) is mostly owned by Matsushita, that also owns Panasonic. So they do have HD cams to protect, you bet!

-Les

[Doug Turner]

I live in a PAL country. I have a healthy HD appetite... as do millions of others.

I believe the HD DVD format has just been decided, so it's just a matter of time.

I currently shoot SD, as my target distribution channel is DVD... as soon as HD DVDs are commonplace, I'll be jumping on the HD camera bandwagon (and by that time they'll have more than halved in price).

For the record, the Australians are the biggest early adopters of technology. PAL vs NTSC?! PAL wins every time... feel free to sling mud!

[Giroud Francois]

it makes no sens to oppose PAL to NTSC when speaking digital video.
DV has no PAL or NTSC, it just differs by the number of vertical lines (480 versus 576) and frame speed (25 versus 30).
so we still refer to PAL or NTSC to make conversation easy but with HD the difference is even smaller as both format share the same size and just differs by the frame rate.
PAL is a big advantage for tape to film , because the frame rate and the better resolution and it is probably why europe is not in a hurry to go HD. Pal is good enough for most consumer.
If you are looking for HD, there is no reason to wait.
JVC has a cheap HD D4 camera and it works.
Anyway if you plan for HD, probably you will use equipment that is in the upper range of prosumer devices. Usually this range of equipement is multistandard and do not really care if you are 25 or 30 fps, as the spectator does not really care either.
for european like us, 30 fps is better than 25, so why should i bother. I will if i need to go on media that are national -standard-aware like vhs but it is unlikely the case. At worse i will distribute on DVD, that is multistandard in europe for must consumer, as we are looking for zone 1 dvd a lot.
Canon announce there will be probably no HD cam before end of life of the new XL2. that means about 1 year and half minimum.
sony will probably follow canon, so do not expect a model before one year.
Panasonic will probably leave it to JVC as they belong to the same group.
Additionally these 3 companies will go for 3 CCD and the camera will cost the hell (probably 3 time the price of the 2000$ jvc).

The only regret for the JVC, it is 720p but a 30fps not 60 as it should be.

[Ken Hodson]

"DV has no PAL or NTSC"

Yes it does. It differs by resolutio, frame rate, and colour space. Thats as different as you can get.
HD does not have PAL or NTSC, as it is a global format.

"Anyway if you plan for HD, probably you will use equipment that is in the upper range of prosumer devices."

The JVC HD10 is the only cam in this group which is called HDV. All other HD equipment is fully in the Professional class due to its new car or house price tags.

[Barry Green]

I'm not up to speed on HD in the EU, but I do remember a few years back that pretty much all the TV sets I saw in the dept. stores were wide screen over there.

Widescreen, yes. Europe loves widescreen and the market penetration of 16:9 sets is something like 50% over there (vs. about 3% in the US). But not HD. There is, last I checked, no HD even on the radar for the EU. Consumers are plenty content with widescreen PAL.

I think in the US, they felt that the 30 fps and the lack of manual controls for exposure would be crippling enough. Leaving off manual controls is so strategic. It was no blunder.

I'm not so sure about that one. Take a look at the Sony HC1000 (or whatever it's called), the new successor to the TRV950. No manual controls of any type actually on the camera, although there's some access to controls through a touchscreen menu. I think it may be just due to a certain marketing mentality over there as to what the "consumer" wants, and the HD1 was clearly aimed only at the consumer. The HD10 was an afterthought because they so thoroughly misjudged the appetite over here (among professionals) for an affordable HD camera.

You do know that JVC ( Victor company of Japan, Ltd ) is mostly owned by Matsushita, that also owns Panasonic. So they do have HD cams to protect, you bet!

Yeah, but... not really. There's almost no product sharing between the two companies. The DV2500 and BR-DV3000 decks are identical, but I don't think anything else is. And Matsushita is so unwieldly huge that I doubt they even *know* they own both companies! :) They did share development of D9/Digital-S and and DVCPRO50, which are the same format... so there is a little collaboration... but that "protect the higher end" philosophy has failed at every company that's ever tried it. Sony's learning the hard way now: not giving the customer what they want is not good for business. And since Panasonic & JVC are owned by the same parent, how would that "protect the high end" philosophy explain the DVX100? There's a camera where the manufacturer is laying it all on the table, giving us everything we could want in a $3500 camera, and it's selling like hotcakes. And so is its big brother the SDX. Heck, Panasonic even revised the DVX to give us even *more* features, even though no new competitor had been released.

The two corporate philosophies ("protect the high end" vs. "give 'em what they want") couldn't be more different. And Panasonic does have a high end to protect, the SDX is 8x as expensive as the DVX, yet there's nothing crippled or artificially hampered about the DVX. I don't think JVC "intentionally" crippled the HD1, I think they just absolutely and completely misjudged the market. And I think that's more evidenced by the announced follow-up camera: three-ccd, 2/3", HDV, interchangeable lenses, 24P, at a price $7,000 below the SDX. They learned, and they are adapting. I think the HD1 was just a mistake on their part, certainly not evidence of some evil corporate conspiracy to keep the good stuff out of the hands of the little guy.

[Steve Crisdale]

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Er, more likely it's because there's no such thing as HD in Europe and other PAL countries. Not now, and no real appetite for it in the future.
-->>>

You may notice from my member location that I'm from a PAL country....so why in God's name did I buy a HD10?
Maybe it's because for the last 2 years I've been watching HD (1080i and 720p) broadcasts on FTA TV!!!! I have done so via STB and Visionplus DVB-t PCI. Australia was incidentally the first country to receive the Visionplus, due to the high HD take-up rate for such a relatively small population.

When JVC announced a PAL version of the cam I was excited at the prospect of 720p 25fps HD, until I saw the specs. What a letdown. I'm sure semi-professional videographers in Europe felt the same sinking feeling I did over the PD1.

The simple fact is that HD is not just a North American phenomenon....although I'm sure there may be a few parochial individuals who would want others to believe so.

As for JVC's attitude in 'knobbling' the PD1....I can only wonder. The cam is fundamentally identical to it's NTSC antecedants, so shooting 720p at 25fps should have presented few technical difficulties.

[Ken Hodson]

There is obviously a lot of corporate handshaking going on behind the scenes. No 720p on the PAL model is/was deliberate. Some may say that 25p is not part of the HDV spec, true but not technically a barrier. 24p is/was available. And don't give me the JVC didn't expect such responce. Really? Every indie filmaker across the planet has been screaming for this. Do ya think it missed the focus group?
Why limited manual controls? Why no competing cams in the market place?
Deals have been made. Market segments discussed. Because Pana and JVC don't have the same products does not mean they are not directed by a higher body. Different market segments for each means more money and devided corporate loyaties. And cam purchases have to be among the most corporate centic purchasers in the world.
HD has to be protected. Its a cash cow. HDV is crippled for a reason. There are a lot of oil companies, but why does gas always cost the same? You don't think they co-operate on the market palce? Wake up and smell the 21st 20th/19th/18th ect..century.
The HD10 is the cat out of the bag. It's a smelly beaten cat, but it is also the best dam cat around.
Sorry for the rant but I've just had enough of this naive corporate acceptance. You will get the cam you dream of when and only when they want to give it to you. Take what you can get and make it work ;>)

[Barry Green]

Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Some may say that 25p is not part of the HDV spec, true but not technically a barrier. 24p is/was available.

Actually, 720/25p IS part of the HDV spec. 24P is not, but 25P is.

And don't give me the JVC didn't expect such responce. Really? Every indie filmaker across the planet has been screaming for this. Do ya think it missed the focus group?

JVC may or may not know what indie filmmakers want, but they certainly didn't design THIS camera to fill that market niche.

[Ken Hodson]

They did design this cam to fill a market niche. If they didn't the HD10 would not exist. Why it isn't the full featured cam we all dreamed of? Read my above post.