I think I found how how to lock manual
 

not really but a sort of:

I aim at something with the right light conditions and I set the frame rate at 60 for example, the camera will pick the appropriate aperture. If you don't move the camera you cycle (so happened to me today at least) until the fps/apertura indication goes away and immediately after you lock the iris pushing for a few seconds the iris weel. I got my camera locked with the exposure I wanted and the fps were for sure 60. I panned, I used it, I moved it around I didn't get that annoying change of brightness on the video that make things brighter and darker automatically. It was really cool (finally after 1 year). Anybody did a similar test?

I remember a review critisizing the HD10/HD1 a lot since he was panning and he was getting all the brightness fluctuation. May be I discovered nothing new but at least it is new for me.

Gabriele

Yes, pushing and holding the jog wheel will lock the exposure. The trick is to set the iris, then fool the camera to a desired frame rate and then lock the exposure. The problem is that there's no feedback what the frame rate actually is so you need to guess by looking the screen or viewfinder.

Yes, I was capable to replicate it at will but I was doing the other way around,lock the frame first and then lock the iris. I'm very happy with the results, there is no display of the setting (idiots at jvc) but from the result I can see, the frame/second is what I usually use in those situations.

Gabriele - As soon as you lock one you LOOSE the lock on the other. If your light levels are consistant you will probably be fine, but what shutter are you in then 1/30 or 1/60? Thats the problem. In your situation this is probably fine if it is giving you the look you like. Just know that your shutter isn't locked.

Ken, I also have the AGC disabled btw but no, I can't put my camera against the sun or toward a dark room and exposure doesn't change a bit, I came back to the shutter speed and it was where I left it 1/60 . Please try yourself. In any case doesn't make any sense that my exposure doesn't change and the camera keep changing aperture and shutter trying to keep the total exposure unchanged, the camera is really locked.

That is because the exposure is locked. You can not rely on what the shutter speed says as it is not locked.

normally changes in shutter speed will change also the global exposure setting, this is usually compensated byt the iris opening and closing . Explain to me how can the iris be locked, there are NO CHANGES in my exposure moving the camera even toward very strong sources of light (I get overexposed pictures) and the shutter speed is changing.
Explain also why I leave the shutter speed at 1/60 and I find it at 1/60.
But listen a question. Did you spend 2 minutes? Did you try?

I must admit that I am having a hard time following your english.

"Explain to me how can the iris be locked, there are NO CHANGES in my exposure moving the camera even toward very strong sources of light (I get overexposed pictures) and the shutter speed is changing."

To me that sounds like you have already locked it. "L" on the read-out. You are admiting that your shutter speed is changing.

"Explain also why I leave the shutter speed at 1/60 and I find it at 1/60"

If it is not locked it can do what ever it likes. You can not go by what it says when it is not locked. You just admitted above that your shutter speed keeps changing when you change lighting.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Gabriele - As soon as you lock one you LOOSE the lock on the other. If your light levels are consistant you will probably be fine, but what shutter are you in then 1/30 or 1/60? Thats the problem. In your situation this is probably fine if it is giving you the look you like. Just know that your shutter isn't locked. -->>>

I'm pretty sure the press-and-hold lock will lock the shutter and iris. Look at it this way, in the manual mode, if you dial the iris to a certain value, it will stay there no matter what, right? Why would it be then necessary to take the extra step to press and hold to lock it down if the shutter will remain in the automatic mode anyway?

I've been using the exposure lock many-many times and know for sure that it locks both the shutter and iris. The tricky part, like I said earlier, is to fool the iris or shutter to a certain value and then lock it there.

This was one of the first tests I did with the camera after I bought it. I set the shutter to 1/30, pointed it to a dimly lit room to make the iris open all the way, locked the exposure and pointed the camera to a very bright light and waved my hand in front of the lense to caputure the motion characteristics. Next test: shutter 1/30, no lock. Pointed the camera to a bright light and and immediately the iris kicked in. Next: manually set the iris to wide open and pointed the camera to the light. Moving the hand in front of lense immediately revealed that the shutter was running faster than 1/30. So my conclusion was: in the exposure locked mode, if either the iris or shutter would have taken priority to keep the exposure at the set level, I would have seen either the higher shutter speed motion characteristics or less changes in scene exposure due to iris kicking in. Unless I couldn't distinguish 1/30 from 1/60 or F-stops from eachoter, the conclusion I drew was that the press-and-hold lock locks the iris and shutter.

Unfortunately I don't have the camera anymore to put this theory under testing.... sold it on eBay few weeks ago =(

Sten

Sorry, english is not my mother language but I was saying exactely what you said. I've to admit that I was not saying that it is tricky to lock into the iris/shutter relation that you want. In his posts Ken gave the impression that doing what I was doing the shutter isn't locked. This was the source of my disagreement and probably misunderstanding. There are tricks to lock the shutter though. Do this test:
1) You se the camera in the "sport" pre-setting. The shutter will be forced at 1/250
2) lock the iris

DOing so the shutter will be locked at 1/250 I tested this 100 times and the iris will be locked at what is the right exposure according to the 1/250. From now on nothing will move exposure-wise and your shutter will stay at 1/250. This is just an example but there are other combinations in order to regain some flexibility with this camera. We all agree the manual mode kind of suck but having 2 or 3 options like this cover a good range of applications in my opinion.

<<<-- Originally posted by Gabriele Sartori : Sten
Sorry, english is not my mother language but I was saying exactely what you said.-->>>

No need to apologize to me, English is not my native language either. I read you just fine.

Sten, I can see you are from SD, where are you from? I'm in Carmel Valley.
BTW, did you sell the camera to buy the FX1 or you just got rid of it?, if yes why? I was very close to the FX1 swap but then a few features didn't make me too happy, CCD upscaling and interlaced mode only were the showstoppers for me, so I decided to "invest" the money in the Nikon D2X as soon as it become available in volume. About the JVC (I've just the HD1) although some limitations are big, I'm very happy with it and I got great memories out of it. It is some of the best money I spent in this field, now I wish something serious but it has to be progressive.

Gabriele

"my conclusion was: in the exposure locked mode, if either the iris or shutter would have taken priority to keep the exposure at the set level, I would have seen either the higher shutter speed motion characteristics or less changes in scene exposure due to iris kicking in. Unless I couldn't distinguish 1/30 from 1/60"

It can be hard to judge between 1/30 and 1/60 especially in quick tests. It also depends how intense the lights you were using were. It may have sat at 1/30 the whole time, or fluctuated between the two. The fact is you can't lock both at once. Not a huge problem though as it isn't a run and gun cam. You set up the shot for what is needed. Shutter or aperture priority, use a few cam settings/filters and light it like film.

I don't want you guys to get me wrong. I am a huge (biggest) fan of the cam, but fact is fact. I would suggest both of you go through past threads. Search for "manual control" in this forum and read what has been discussed by many smarter than me.

I see both sides of this debate.

Gabriele's point is well taken, that if *exposure per se* is truly locked, then for shutter speed to be changing, aperture must change with it, or exposure is not locked. So what sense would it make to simultaneously be juggling shutter speed and aperture with a locked exposure?

To understand Ken's point, I would ask Garbriele or Sten to consider what would happen if they locked the exposure on "-3"?

Since I think these are 1/3 f-stops, then setting the exposure lock to -3 would appear to maintain an underexposure by 1 f-stop to whatever the scene lighting was, whether dark or light it would be underexposed by 1 f-stop. If true, then some combination of shutter and/or aperture is being manipulated to maintain the 1 f-stop underexposure as the scene lighting changes. The salient question is, why would it be any different if exposure was locked on "0"? Locking the exposure on "0" would thus logically be assumed to be locking to the correct scene exposure, neither under or over exposed, which is confusing because that's what it should be doing if it wasn't locked at all.

My own quick and unscientific test raised more questions than yielded answers. What I did was point the camera at a bright window, and lock the exposure on "0".

When I panned the camera to a darker area of the room, the image appeared dark and underexposed. But when I pointed it back at the bright window, it appeared darker than when I locked the exposure.

I'm glad this topic has come up (again) ... as my experience has been the same as Gabriele's. So I've always felt a bit confused about these "unable to lock" discussions.

For example, I point the camera at a scene, select 1/60 and then press again ..... the camera locks on f5.6. Then I press again (so that there's no reading is on the screen) and then double-press the exposure button (so that "L" appears besides the +0). I can then move the camera through varying light levels without the exposure fluctuating.

OK, so now back to the exact same scene. This time I select 1/250 and press ... the aperture now locks on f2.8. I press again to clear the screen and double press to lock exposure.

As far as I've been able to tell, my shutter ends up locked at 1/60 in the first example, and 1/250 in the second, regardless of the ambient light levels once I start I wandering around.

As long as the light doesn't change while shifting from shutter lock to aperture lock, it is my impression that the shutter maintains its initial setting (otherwise why would the camera settle on two different f-stops in the above two examples?). The next step then appears to lock both shutter and aperture (I've never gotten the impression that they are moving in tandem).

If I get time tomorow I'll test this properly using a spinning disk with constant motion so that I can confirm what I'm saying about the shutterspeed.

Okay, I overlooked the "L".

So if I was -3 on the exposure, it's tracking at minus 1 f-stop as the scene lighting changes, but if I was -3L on the exposure, it's locked at 1 f-stop below whatever the scene lighting was when I locked it.

If I lock the exposure at "0L", and shine a flashlight into the lens, it can be seen that the aperture (iris) does not stop-down, therefore the exposure is locked, and so is the shutter.

The question is, at what shutter, what aperture?

You can hope that by toggling the A/S button, with the display reading out your preferred shutter speed and aperture in the manner of the spoofing as described by Garbriele and Sten, that it will remain so upon entering the exposure lock mode. And further if you are convinced to your own satisfaction that the exposure is locked at 1/60 by waving your hand in front of the lens in the manner described by Sten, then I would probably agree that you have succeeded in locking the shutter *and* the aperture.

One problem I had though, was demonstrated when I was practicing this in the kitchen with incadescent lights.

If I toggled the A/S button to shutter, it would display 1/30. If I changed this to 1/100, the viewfinder/LCD would get dark.

If I toggled the A/S button to aperture, the viewfinder/LCD would get bright again. I could toggle it to the aperture that existed when I had the shutter set to 1/100, and the viewfinder/LCD would again get dark.

But in order to use the exposure lock, I had to toggle the A/S button once more until neither the shutter speed or the aperture was displayed.

Then I could enter the exposure lock mode, but the viewfinder/LCD would return to bright.

So without some of Sten's handwaving, or Gabriele's trickery, I can't really get assurance that I have preserved the desired shutter speed or aperture upon entering the exposure lock mode.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Roper :
But in order to use the exposure lock, I had to toggle the A/S button once more until neither the shutter speed or the aperture was displayed.

Then I could enter the exposure lock mode, but the viewfinder/LCD would return to bright.

So without some of Sten's handwaving, or Gabriele's trickery, I can't really get assurance that I have preserved the desired shutter speed or aperture upon entering the exposure lock mode. -->>>

Tom, you've made some good points. The results I got most likely resulted from the dimly lit room so the shutter locked at 1/30 and iris wide open (F2.8?) thus I drew the incorrect conclusion that the camera locked the values I had manually set prior to locking.

In my mind this is still what the evidence points to: the exposure lock does lock the shutter and iris, but you cannot be sure what the values end up being.

Just for the record, the camera I used was HD10. Unlikely, but could there be a difference in this regard between the HD1 and HD10 since the camera Gabriele uses is HD1?

<<<-- Originally posted by Gabriele Sartori : Sten, I can see you are from SD, where are you from? I'm in Carmel Valley.
BTW, did you sell the camera to buy the FX1 or you just got rid of it?, if yes why? I was very close to the FX1 swap but then a few features didn't make me too happy, CCD upscaling and interlaced mode only were the showstoppers for me, so I decided to "invest" the money in the Nikon D2X as soon as it become available in volume. About the JVC (I've just the HD1) although some limitations are big, I'm very happy with it and I got great memories out of it. It is some of the best money I spent in this field, now I wish something serious but it has to be progressive. -->>>

Gabriele, in these days I stay in Temecula but a few years back I lived near your neighbourhoods... Carmel Mountain Rd just off the i-15. At the moment, though, I'm visiting my homeland in EU.

I sold the camera since I don't do much shooting in winter time and it really was the utmost time to still get a reasonable price from the camera.

I hear you, I want progressive as well, since all of my footage ends up in the computer. I'm sick and tired of dealing with deinterlacing and all the extra steps required to make the footage look artifact free. I'll wait for the next batch of HDV cams, progressive, couldn't care less for the 24fps, though.

Back to the regular programming...

>>If I toggled the A/S button to shutter, it would display 1/30. If I changed this to 1/100, the viewfinder/LCD would get dark.

>>If I toggled the A/S button to aperture, the viewfinder/LCD would get bright again. I could toggle it to the aperture that existed when I had the shutter set to 1/100, and the viewfinder/LCD would again get dark.

-----------------------------------------

Yep, that's an additional complication. When you first lock the shutter, it has to be at a speed where the camera can achieve correct exposure with an available f-stop (i.e. somewhere between f1.8 and f22). In that situation, the method we've been discussing will work.

However ..... if you lock on a shutter speed that requires a non-available f-stop, the shutter WILL shift when you then lock the aperture (presumably because the camera detects the incorrect exposure and decides to do something about it).

I agree.

I agree also.

Bottom line, I think Gabriele's method, when it's possible to achieve correct exposure with an available f-stop, has a strong likelihood of being a usable workaround to the lack of manual control.

To everybody
 

I think that now we have more agreement than disagreement here. I did a few more tests, bottom line I found this:

1) When "L" is active & locked, both iris and shutter get locked, I did some DOF test and it never changes even with strong changes in light hence they are both locked but it seems that now everybody agree on this. I'm 110% positive on this. Frankly before fiddling with this I had the impression that locking both was impossible now I observed otherwise and I'm frankly very happy. Magazine wrote articles saying that locking was impossible, evidently they wrote articles but they didn't study the camera well. One editor said that he was having problems with the camera since the brightness of the scene was changing while panning, he didn't even know about the iris lock wheel evidently.

2) Ken is totally right, it is very hard to guarantee aperture and shutter locking at will. I probably had some fortunate coincidence. After extensive test however I found that I can repeat these situations:
A) If I want fast shutter I go in sport mode than I lock the iris. The shutter will never be slower than 1/250 even if I disable the sport mode as long as I keep the iris locked "L"
B) I aim at something with average light I fiddle with the shutter/iris just to check if they are more or less what I want (I.E. 1/60 or 1/100 in order to minimize the strobe effect) than I lock them, everything will stay locked at that aperture/shutter speed.

Naturally these are dirty tricks and the FX1 folks will laugh at them but all thing considered the camera is quite usable in manual. Unless someone want intentionally underexpose or overexpose (there are functions like the iris wheel to accomplish that however) we can do the following:

1) Lock the shutter and have cinematic like or more TV like type of result. We can maximize light sensitivity or fluidity.
2) Lock the aperture and have better or worse DOF
3) Lock everything with just a little ability to choose (although some ability) and doing so avoid "pumping" in the brightness of the scene if someting moves, changes or with zooming or panning.

It is not perfection but it is enough manual mode for me. We still have zero control over audio. Someone ever tested how an external controller works with that? BTW, on video the AGC (gain up) OFF/ON setting is indicated in the Automatic menu but it influences also the manual mode (it is another factor that changes more frequently the iris/shutter)

I don't know you guys but after about one year I decided to keep this camera for a longer period of time. THe FX1 doesn't make me happy, I like progressive and I don't like interpolation, I like real resolution.

Thanks to everybody
Gabriele

For Sten
 

Temecula, not too far however. Give me a buzz when you are back, may be we go for a coffee together and we can talk about toys. Have a nice trip in EU, I miss it butnot in this season. San Diego is a much better place for me now. Last week we got about 30 degree Celsius (better than the summer)

Gabriele

email: myfirstname@gmail.com

>>Naturally these are dirty tricks and the FX1 folks will laugh at them

Perhaps, but these are nevertheless very 'do-able' tricks that can be easily be incorporated into day-to-day shooting. Heck, how hard is it to press a button three times?

Besides, with the street price for a new GR-HD1 approaching $1500, the FX1 and Z1 users are definitely paying (more than double!) for their better features.

I’ve never used the camera, but I’m curious: if you wanted to shoot outdoors in 30P, wouldn’t it work fine if you locked the shutter speed at 30fps, put a heavy ND filter on the front of the lens, and then let the camera adjust the rest of the exposure automatically? I’ve done that with the Canon Optura Xi, which has a similar setup, and it worked well that way.

That's how most people do it Kevin, but you can overdo it with too much ND will cause blacks to drift toward a dark green cast, sort of a reciprocity-like failure.

My $0.02 is that 60fps is more natural than 30fps shutter speed which helps also.

My rule is to not apply more than 3 f-stops of ND filters. You can try Gabriele's spoofing trick, or choose aperture priority in combination with the ND filters, with some reasonable assurance that if you don't get exactly 60 fps shutter speed, it'll be close enough.

I just wanted to throw in my $.02... I've been able to reproduce this shutter & iris locking method and it does apparently work. I also did some comparison (eyeballing it, but tried to be as scientific as possible - same settings, same subject, lighting, etc) on some repeatable panning and dollying using both the built in 1/60 shutter (non locked; 1/60 is on the screen, exposure is all over the place, etc) and Gabriele's method of locking to 1/60 (everything locked) and though there's no on screen display confirming it, I'm getting 1/60 locked.

Way to go Gabe!

This good news guys. Thanks for pushing forward on this topic Gabriele, we seem to be making headway. I will be doing some more testing of my own this weekend using some software that allows variable zebra monitoring that will help detect any exposure flux.

Well I've been lame and not done the testing I promised to do weeks ago.

But...if any of you ARE testing this weekend and have the time - try the following. Go through the steps indicated in this thread to lock the shutter and aperture. Now, cycle through the settings again QUICKLY (i.e. less than a half second before each push of the button) until you get back to the starting-point.

The impression I have - and feel free to prove me wrong - is that as you do this the display will report the current settings - such as 1/60 and f2.8 - but will NOT attempt to alter them them. That is, each setting stays fixed as you cycle on to the next setting.

If I'm correect about this, it means not only can you lock f-stop and shutter, but you can ALSO get visual confirmation of what settings you've locked them at!

<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling :

The impression I have - and feel free to prove me wrong - is that as you do this the display will report the current settings - such as 1/60 and f2.8 - but will NOT attempt to alter them them. That is, each setting stays fixed as you cycle on to the next setting. -->>>

I got the very same impression in a few instances but I wasn't 100% sure. Guys I can't wait to see your results !

Gabriele

I can confirm...
 

Exposure stays locked. And while locked, I can toggle the S/A button to see what the shutter speed and aperture settings are.

Houston, we HAVE manual control !

Perhaps we should start a new thread, and post a clear step-by-step explanation at the top of it - just so newcomers don't have to wade through these 3 pages of posts?

Heck - maybe it even warrents a "sticky"???

Good idea. I'm currently trying to figure out the SS display...

There are a lot of common terms being used to mean multiple things.

The trick comes down to cycling between the settings (shutter and F) while the indicator is still flashing - don't wait for it to stay steady, at that point the camera has readjusted and lost your previous setting. If you choose what you want, then cycle to the next setting, then cycle again all while the indicator is still blinking (about .5-1.0 seconds between each toggle), you've got locked manual control.

This camera is a lot like Blender (www.blender3d.org). Great potential and usability, horrible interface and documentation.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : This good news guys. Thanks for pushing forward on this topic Gabriele, we seem to be making headway. I will be doing some more testing of my own this weekend using some software that allows variable zebra monitoring that will help detect any exposure flux. -->>>

Hey hey,, more info please :D

I hate to shatter the euphoria...
 

But I was wrong for confirming the manual lock. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.

Do this:

1.) Put the HD1/10 on a tripod indoors and point it toward a window in daylight.

2.) Let the camera stabilize for 1 minute. The significance of this will become apparent later.

3.) Toggle the S/A button to read the current shutter and aperture, for now assume it was 1/250 - f5.6.

4.) Manually set the shutter to 1/30 second, and then immediately lock the exposure.

5.) While watching the LCD screen, toggle the S/A button repeatedly.

*****************************************

While the exposure is locked, note how the scene in the LCD gradually fades to dark. At the same time, note how the readout for the shutter speed is gradually returning to 1/250.....first 1/30...then 1/60...1/100...1/125...1/250, as the picture gets darker.

What I observed, is that when the lighting in a scene changes, the aperture responds almost instantly, while the shutter responds much more slowly, taking perhaps 20 seconds or more (depending on the ambient light) to swing from 1/30 - 1/250 sec.

There are several ways to observe this tendency. Another way is to put the camera into aperture priority, and point it at the same window on the tripod, but with the lens cap on, or your hand in front. Remove the lens cap and looking at the LCD observe how slowly the shutter responds before the exposure is correct again.

Tom, Are you sure you have the exposure locked with the "L" showing?

I can point the camera set at f2.8 1/60th at a bright window (where the "correct" exposure would be f16 1/250th) and cycle repeatedly with the S/A button (20 times or so, over a 2-minute period) and nothing budges!

Each time, the readout says 1/60 and f2.8, and the viewfinder stays heavily overexposed.

I'm cycling quite fast - I just glance at the number then move on immediately...

As you know, you cannot lock the exposure while you are in shutter or aperture priority mode, you have to exit first.

Whenever you exit shutter or aperture mode, before going into exposure lock it won't remain at the shutter/aperture setting you chose unless it wanted to be there in the first place, in auto.

Consider the following example. The camera is stabilized, and you toggle the S/A button and get this readout 1/125 - f5.6. When you lock the exposure, it will *stay locked* if it was stabilized there when you locked it. You can put the lens cap on, or point the camera at the sun, regardless...the exposure remains locked.

But if you were trying to spoof the camera to a 1/60 shutter speed using the Gabriele trick immediately before locking the exposure, followed by toggling of the S/A button for confirmation, you could be tricking yourself. Because while the shutter speed readout may appear to have locked at 1/60 sec the first time you looked, you wouldn't notice that it was continuing to revert because it was happening so slowly.

So over the course of 20 seconds if you repeat the confirmation check, you will confirm that the shutter did not remain locked and was changing...1/60...then 1/100...then 1/125 and so on.

To summarize, ONLY if the camera was stabilized in AUTO (and not making the slow climb up the curve while exiting from shutter priority mode), will the exposure remain locked.

Graham, you ask two questions.

1.) Yes..."L" is showing.

2.) >>>I can point the camera set at f2.8 1/60th at a bright window (where the "correct" exposure would be f16 1/250th) and cycle repeatedly with the S/A button (20 times or so, over a 2-minute period) and nothing budges! <<<

Right! But that's because you had the camera locked at f2.8 1/60th *before* you pointed it at the window. Yes, it stays locked in that circumstance.

But reverse the order. Point it at the bright window *first* (on a tripod), and try getting it to lock at 1/60th.

<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling :Each time, the readout says 1/60 and f2.8, and the viewfinder stays heavily overexposed.
-->>>

But consider Graham, the object is not to be able to simply lock the incorrect exposure, it is to be able to lock the *shutter* to the correct exposure that won't change when you pan.

So in your example, you succeeding in locking the shutter and not having the exposure change when you panned, but you failed in that the window was overexposed. Do you see the difference?

So what you need to make happen, is to achieve a 1/60th shutter and correct exposure while pointed at the bright window (which is the scene), and then have it go underexposed when you pan away from the scene.