Difference and reliability between HD1 and HD10u
 

We are looking at purchasing two of these cameras and we are wondering if there is a big difference between the HD1 and HD10u. I have heard that the HD1 has more failures and were wondering if this is true? Is it worth the price difference to purchase the HD10u? Is the HD1 capable of producing the same quality image as the HD10u besides the edge enhancement on the HD1. Thanks and your help will be greatly appreciated.

Daniel
DDS Productions

Compared my readings of the HD10u vs the HD1

The only real difference is that the video has less edge enhancement and that the LCD on the HD10u has more pixels and comes with a mic. The HD10u has a longer warranty than the HD1. More failures, I'm not sure. They both came from the same line.

The video can be fixed in post on your NLE from the HD1 so for the extra money, to me, it was not worth it. If its the same price, buy the HD10u.

I have not heard either way many problems with the cams.

Allen, how do you propose to get rid of EE in an NLE?

Edge Enhancement seems like a tuff nut to fix in post......if anyone figures that one out I'm sure allot of people would be interested in the solution.

I am not able to get rid of the edge enhancement entirely but I can soften it by adjusting the gamma. I have not been looking into this further since I really want to fix this in the firmware.

what exactly does the edge enhancement do? is it worth the $500 or so dollars in difference?

Edge enhancement or EE, is a non removeable feature of the lower cost consumer HD-1. It is a darkening (drawing a black line) of high contrast edges. It makes the image look sharper than it is. It is acceptable to most people or even preferred to some as it gives their home video's that pow-bam HD look. The downside is it also gives a edgy video look that many artist don't want, or want to add themselves by increasing sharpness in post.

Not worth a dime more, just get the HD-10U.

Mike

I own both. Only differences are:

-The Viewfinder (not LCD) resolution - the HD10U one is much better;
-The XLR inputs (2 on the HD10U, none on the HD1);
-The edge enhancement on the HD1, which isn't good but you can actually work your way around it in post on most cases, after all we're talking 1280x720 here.

If you have a low budget go for the HD1, don't be too scared because it's almost the same as it's better brother. If you can afford the HD10U though, go for it.

Little edge enhancement after post:

http://www.geocities.com/headlesspuppy/stuff/hdv2.jpg

Whats your main tool for minimizing EE, Dave?

Hey Dave F. are you thoroughly happy with your JVC's?
What sorta drawbacks have you noticed personally having used them both for awhile now?
Are you very happy with the video it produces?
Thanks Dave.

In addition to the better warranty with the HD10, you get to deal with JVC Pro - not Consumer. In many cases, if you buy it with credit card, you get one year extended warranty from Visa or MC. Save all the paperwork INCLUDING monthly statement.

Steve, yes I'm very happy with the results obtained from both cameras. I haven't performed a test with both cameras side-by-side, but maybe will do when I have the time & patience.

What I dislike about both cameras is the lack of full manual control. I don't care personaly about gain, but shutter speed and aperture should be controlled simultaneously, like in my GL2.

I also don't think the camera is too bad on outdoors night shots. Here's an example, not that different from a FX1.

http://www.geocities.com/headlesspup...f/hd1night.jpg

Indoors it's pretty bad without proper lighting, don't expect PD150 or DVX100 type results. It's a 1-CCD camera after all. If, like me, you're thinking of making short films and documentaries with the camera though, you shouldn't worry too much about uncontrolled lighting/shooting conditions.

Personally I still think that the low resulotion viewfinder is the biggest drawback when comparing the two JVC cams.


Ken, I don't use any specific software, just Premiere Pro. When I work with the HD1 for DVDs, I simply down res footage and it looks great. In fact the EE probably helps making the images higher res. When wanting to use HD, I usually place a copy of the footage on a secondary track and the apply the filter 'Anti Aliasing' to it. I the use the opacity meter to regulate how much amount of blending it should do. Of course this is only effective if you footage was decent to start with. If you're shooting on an environment with high contrast (ex. sunny day with lots of shadow) I usually go for a low exposure setting to reduce the EE on over-exposed areas. There's no magic wand, but I would say that in 80-90% of my footage the EE is almost unnoticeable.

If I would offer the service of tuning down or even switching EE completely off on HD1, would anybody suggest logistics and expected cost for that?

I am prepared to do this for free to a couple of people to get their independent feedback as soon as the shipment is covered.

I am based in UK and it does not involve taking the camera apart. I can also revert any camera settings back to original if user wishes so afterwards.

Anybody interested?

Leo,

Could you post more screenshots of edge enhancement on/off and sharpness on/off? I know you have one of each already but I'd like to see more samples.

Allen

I wopuld think $200 USD plus return shipping would be fair.

Allen,

I have uploaded more images shot in a hurry from my window. Very flat overcast lighting but should give an idea of possible improvement. I am very interested to hear what setting produces the most pleasing looks for people here! 100% (default) is too much by any standard.

Leo

http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/

Leo,

Hard to tell with the in-between pics once you reduced the sharpening and EE from 100%. I wish the pics are all in 16:9 since I see some artificial vertical sharpening from the stretching.

From this set of pics I prefer 25% sharpening. Anything but that video look at 100% setting. Is it really that bad? (I believe it while looking at some of my clips on the HD1). With 0% EE/sharpening I thought it look quite blurry in the 16:9 pic. Would the HD mode of the HD1 provide some more native sharpening than compared to the PD1's no EE/sharpening pics?

On your site, was the first top picture done with only EE turned off and with sharpening at default?

What I want is to tune the EE/sharpening to look like some of the still pics I've seen from the FX1. Ignoring the color, I thought that the edges off that cam is very clean, maybe even cleaner than the HD10. Is this possible because I thought the image from the HD1 is actually pretty sharp in a well lit scene. Someone had posted the same observation that in a well lit scene, the HD1 and FX1 are on par until it gets to the low light situation.

Any HD10 users out there that may take a look at Leo's site to see which picture the HD10 looks most similar to?

Allen

I would say the HD10, to me, looks somewhere around %25 to my eyes.

I use EE and sharpening interchangeably because it is a single process and a single control in JVC.

It is hard to tell whether 0% + a bit of EE in post or 25% and no post EE is better. Since the camera applies EE to the raw image and then passes it through mpeg2 codec, it might be beneficial to do mpeg2 compression of already sharper image.

I suggest loading PNG images into your NL software and playing with it to see what can be achieved.

I believe HD1 should be easier to tweak then PD1 because the PD1 dowconverts image to a smaller pixel count.

For my eyes 25% looks best and 100% is really too much. I can't get rid of those black circles around lights and white objects in post. 25% is now my default setting.

I'd love to come up with some standard test target so that we Ill can shoot it and compare like for like.

First picture is the result of tuning different criteria - the values of CCD matrix coefficients. It did achive some results but in an indirect way. Now I am controlling EE directly. I plan to do some more work on colours and gamma as soon as I have repeatable standard object to shoot.

Posted 16:9 images:
100% EE - http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/100-16x9.jpg
25% EE - http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/25-16x9.jpg

Copied from other thread
 

Leo Bodnar -

"I have more on my plate at the moment that I can cope with - e.g. I have found how to separate EE and sharpness. "

Cool, I saw this from the other close thread to this one. Dont know if you have the time but just wondering now that EE and sharpness can be separate, what happens with only EE turned off, in terms of picture output?

I think you may be able to better the HD1 than the HD10 in it's default form, and possibly provide some HD10 owners something to think about.

Could a screw-on lens fliter possibly help with EE?

EE is basically a bolt-on to sharpness algorithm that adds extra sharpness if contrast gradient exceeds preset threshold. In other words, if contrast changes quickly enough (that's what happens on the edges), extra sharpness is added.

In theory adding a soft filter could help bringing overall contrst down and EE has less chance to kick in. However around the light sources and reflections it is still high.

Try adding a soft filter (proper one or stockings/smear) and then compensate with some sharpness during post.

However, image without any EE at all is just plain beautiful - like an old photograph (even though the crispness is gone.)