Build a wide angle prime at DVinfo.net

Mikael Widerberg · January 5th, 2008, 05:53 PM

Okay, I want to go wider with my HD100, and I am not the only one I can imagine.

1. I now there is the Fujinon 13x, but its a litle bit to expensive for me at the moment.

2. Also there are those 35mm adapters, but as far as I now they are to be mounted on the standard Fujinon 16X, and not directly to the body. Its only the Mini35 that you can mount directly on the body (Correct me if I am wrong here). Also to expensive.

Now to my headquestion:
4. I understand its complicated and expensive to build a zoom like the Fujinon 13x, but way in havens name cant somone build a prime with say 3.5mm that fits directly on the GY HD100 body. A prime cant be that hard to build can it? Put a price tag on it for say 2000 dollar, and it will sell like butter in sunshine ;)

Thanks everyone for a wonderfull forum!

S. Abdul Jamal · January 5th, 2008, 07:57 PM

letus is coming out with thier relay version of the extreme for the hd100 soon .

Mikael Widerberg · January 5th, 2008, 08:51 PM

Thanks for the info Abdul, that sounds really interesting!

Do you now how it will work with 35mm Nikon lenses, and how it will affect the Angle of view? That really is a key issue for me since i need to go really wide.

/Micke from Sweden

Sean Adair · January 6th, 2008, 12:51 AM

Mikael,
Have you looked at wide angle adapters that attach to the front of the lens?
There is one made specifically for the 16x. There are also a number of other 3rd party choices. Typically the ones that allow zooming aren't as wide as the models that work only with lens kept at full wide.

I have the 17x (with the minimal extra range at the wide side), but adapted a century non-zoom .4x adapter from a previous camera to fit.
It vignettes a little, and fisheyes noticeably, but it sure is nice to have for some things, and if I need a cleaner look I can tweak it a bit more in post.
Detail is pretty darn good.

I doubt that the 35mm adapters will be effective with wide angle lenses, although I'd love to hear otherwise.

The JVC 16mm PL adapter and a cine wide angle prime would probably be an elegant solution. But figure about $5000 for that.

A dedicated WA prime would be nice, but it's too limited a market, for something that actually needs quite a bit of R&D. The 1/3" plane of resolution isn't common so it would have to be designed from scratch.

Mikael Widerberg · January 6th, 2008, 06:30 AM

Yes Sean, I have looked on wide angle adapters, and of course that's always an alternative for poor people like me. But you now, what's the point with lenses that you can remove on cams like the HD100 if you just use adapters anyway. I guess it works better on your 17x than on mine standard 16x.

Since there are the 13x and one or to more lenses thats fits HD100 it wouldn't be to hard for Fujinon to make a prime from that. I bet they could sell a lot more of a dedicated WA prime like that, if the price is right offcourse.

A dedicated WA prime would be so nice and simple...
But if that don't happen, it will be a choice between my standard 16x with some quality adapter, or the cooming 35mm adapter from letus that fits directly on to the body and then hook up a wide Nikon 35mm lens. Wander with alternative that will give me the best pictures?

Sean Adair · January 8th, 2008, 11:10 AM

Broadcast video shooters with interchangeable lenses have been using WA adapters for years to get those needed shots. I've almost always had one available for ENG work. But director I worked with quite a bit always rented the DEDICATED wide angle lens for the stand-up interviews we were doing, since he just liked that in your face look so much.

I think going wide angle with a 35mm ground glass style adapters will be too problematic. One big issue with these cameras is seeing the grain of the ground glass - obviously bigger issue with wide. They lose stops of light, need very careful setup and handling, and still have some inherent softness, which is an OK tradeoff for a spectacular reduction in DOF, but not for wide angle, where we usually want everything sharp as a tack. Some of them might not be possible to set up for a very wide angle lens given their primary design objectives.

I don't think you'll get a dedicated lens as you request, but I wonder about other possible mods. Are there lenses of ANY mount system you know of with focal lengths under 3.5mm? Mechanical mount adapters are not that hard to make, even custom orders. They have to be precise.

Find me a really short existing lens that isn't hard mounted into a camera, and there might be a path to pursue.

Bill Ravens · January 8th, 2008, 11:15 AM

Mikael...

Designing and making a lens, zoom or fixed focal length, is not a trivial nor inexpensive process. All lenses are multi element, with non dispersion glass. The raw fluorite is very expensive to start with. Then there's polishing, which is a labor intensive, slow, lengthy process. Finally, there's AR coatings to reduce reflection and improve transmission at all the visible wavelengths.

So, you can see that the enginnering behind a lens is only a small fraction of the cost. Manufacturers aren't likely to front the cost until they see a market. I doubt they'll see much of a market where so many different mount systems, focal plane to lens distances, and sensor requirements are used.

Ryan Avery · January 8th, 2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael Widerberg

Okay, I want to go wider with my HD100, and I am not the only one I can imagine.

1. I now there is the Fujinon 13x, but its a litle bit to expensive for me at the moment.

2. Also there are those 35mm adapters, but as far as I now they are to be mounted on the standard Fujinon 16X, and not directly to the body. Its only the Mini35 that you can mount directly on the body (Correct me if I am wrong here). Also to expensive.

Now to my headquestion:
4. I understand its complicated and expensive to build a zoom like the Fujinon 13x, but way in havens name cant somone build a prime with say 3.5mm that fits directly on the GY HD100 body. A prime cant be that hard to build can it? Put a price tag on it for say 2000 dollar, and it will sell like butter in sunshine ;)

Thanks everyone for a wonderfull forum!

Mikael,

As everyone else has said, it is extremely costly to make a wide angle prime for your camera. Especially given the cost of actual camera itself, the market would be most limited at the price the prime would be. It takes years and hundreds of thousands of US Dollars to make such a lens.

We offer a .5x adapter that will give you 50% wider than your existing lens with little sacrifice in image quality. The changes in image quality vary from lens to lens but most Standard Definition lenses (like the ones that come on the HD100/110U cameras) keep excellent image quality. Check it out.

http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecomm...=1085&IID=1362

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Mikael Widerberg · January 9th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Yes Sean, maby 35mm adapters an WA is not good idea. I do now that there are som "industrial purpose" lenses from example Fujinon and they go as wide as 2.8mm and even moore. http://www.fujinon.co.jp/en/products/cctv/index.htm But I gues that I get a better result using my standard Fujinon 16x in combination with a adapter from Schneider Optics ;)

Its nothing wrong with adapters like for example the one from Schneider Optics, they do the jobb well I can imagine. Buy you now, with a company like Fujinon cant they just use the glass thats inside the 13x lens and only use the WA part of it (with some modifications offcourse). I meen Its allready made and it would be a nice 3.5mm prime.

Sean Adair · February 26th, 2008, 10:32 AM

I kept browsing the mtf website after looking at Eric's nikon adapter links.
He makes 1.5mm and 2mm lenses for 1/3" ccd cameras for special mount compact cameras. He also makes the nikon adapter for the JVC prohd - all his own products, so if anyone can do what Mikael wants, it's this guy.

Imagine one of these pups on the front of the JVC! Just hope you aren't seeing the viewfinder (forget about the mic). Seriously - it would be pretty cool for some radical view shots and special needs.

I suspect that although it isn't "HD" specific, that there would be decent resolution, with any shortcomings masked by the spectacular perspective.

He might also have some clues on a more moderate W/A prime. If you check it out Mikael - be sure to report back!

http://www.mtfservices.com/products/...maha_lens.html

January 5th, 2008, 05:53 PM	#1
Mikael Widerberg Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 73	Build a wide angle prime Okay, I want to go wider with my HD100, and I am not the only one I can imagine. 1. I now there is the Fujinon 13x, but its a litle bit to expensive for me at the moment. 2. Also there are those 35mm adapters, but as far as I now they are to be mounted on the standard Fujinon 16X, and not directly to the body. Its only the Mini35 that you can mount directly on the body (Correct me if I am wrong here). Also to expensive. Now to my headquestion: 4. I understand its complicated and expensive to build a zoom like the Fujinon 13x, but way in havens name cant somone build a prime with say 3.5mm that fits directly on the GY HD100 body. A prime cant be that hard to build can it? Put a price tag on it for say 2000 dollar, and it will sell like butter in sunshine ;) Thanks everyone for a wonderfull forum!

January 6th, 2008, 12:51 AM	#4
Sean Adair Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 463	Mikael, Have you looked at wide angle adapters that attach to the front of the lens? There is one made specifically for the 16x. There are also a number of other 3rd party choices. Typically the ones that allow zooming aren't as wide as the models that work only with lens kept at full wide. I have the 17x (with the minimal extra range at the wide side), but adapted a century non-zoom .4x adapter from a previous camera to fit. It vignettes a little, and fisheyes noticeably, but it sure is nice to have for some things, and if I need a cleaner look I can tweak it a bit more in post. Detail is pretty darn good. I doubt that the 35mm adapters will be effective with wide angle lenses, although I'd love to hear otherwise. The JVC 16mm PL adapter and a cine wide angle prime would probably be an elegant solution. But figure about $5000 for that. A dedicated WA prime would be nice, but it's too limited a market, for something that actually needs quite a bit of R&D. The 1/3" plane of resolution isn't common so it would have to be designed from scratch. __________________ Sean Adair - NYC - www.adairproductions.com JVC GY-HM-700 with 17x5 lens, MacPro 3.2ghz 8-core, 18gb. (JVC HD200 4 sale soon)

January 8th, 2008, 11:10 AM	#6
Sean Adair Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 463	Broadcast video shooters with interchangeable lenses have been using WA adapters for years to get those needed shots. I've almost always had one available for ENG work. But director I worked with quite a bit always rented the DEDICATED wide angle lens for the stand-up interviews we were doing, since he just liked that in your face look so much. I think going wide angle with a 35mm ground glass style adapters will be too problematic. One big issue with these cameras is seeing the grain of the ground glass - obviously bigger issue with wide. They lose stops of light, need very careful setup and handling, and still have some inherent softness, which is an OK tradeoff for a spectacular reduction in DOF, but not for wide angle, where we usually want everything sharp as a tack. Some of them might not be possible to set up for a very wide angle lens given their primary design objectives. I don't think you'll get a dedicated lens as you request, but I wonder about other possible mods. Are there lenses of ANY mount system you know of with focal lengths under 3.5mm? Mechanical mount adapters are not that hard to make, even custom orders. They have to be precise. Find me a really short existing lens that isn't hard mounted into a camera, and there might be a path to pursue. __________________ Sean Adair - NYC - www.adairproductions.com JVC GY-HM-700 with 17x5 lens, MacPro 3.2ghz 8-core, 18gb. (JVC HD200 4 sale soon)

February 26th, 2008, 10:32 AM	#10
Sean Adair Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 463	ultra-wide fisheye prime possibility? I kept browsing the mtf website after looking at Eric's nikon adapter links. He makes 1.5mm and 2mm lenses for 1/3" ccd cameras for special mount compact cameras. He also makes the nikon adapter for the JVC prohd - all his own products, so if anyone can do what Mikael wants, it's this guy. Imagine one of these pups on the front of the JVC! Just hope you aren't seeing the viewfinder (forget about the mic). Seriously - it would be pretty cool for some radical view shots and special needs. I suspect that although it isn't "HD" specific, that there would be decent resolution, with any shortcomings masked by the spectacular perspective. He might also have some clues on a more moderate W/A prime. If you check it out Mikael - be sure to report back! http://www.mtfservices.com/products/...maha_lens.html __________________ Sean Adair - NYC - www.adairproductions.com JVC GY-HM-700 with 17x5 lens, MacPro 3.2ghz 8-core, 18gb. (JVC HD200 4 sale soon)

January 5th, 2008, 07:57 PM	#2
S. Abdul Jamal Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: harlem ,nyc Posts: 77	letus is coming out with thier relay version of the extreme for the hd100 soon .

January 5th, 2008, 08:51 PM	#3
Mikael Widerberg Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 73	Thanks for the info Abdul, that sounds really interesting! Do you now how it will work with 35mm Nikon lenses, and how it will affect the Angle of view? That really is a key issue for me since i need to go really wide. /Micke from Sweden

January 6th, 2008, 06:30 AM	#5
Mikael Widerberg Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 73	Yes Sean, I have looked on wide angle adapters, and of course that's always an alternative for poor people like me. But you now, what's the point with lenses that you can remove on cams like the HD100 if you just use adapters anyway. I guess it works better on your 17x than on mine standard 16x. Since there are the 13x and one or to more lenses thats fits HD100 it wouldn't be to hard for Fujinon to make a prime from that. I bet they could sell a lot more of a dedicated WA prime like that, if the price is right offcourse. A dedicated WA prime would be so nice and simple... But if that don't happen, it will be a choice between my standard 16x with some quality adapter, or the cooming 35mm adapter from letus that fits directly on to the body and then hook up a wide Nikon 35mm lens. Wander with alternative that will give me the best pictures?

January 8th, 2008, 11:15 AM	#7
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Mikael... Designing and making a lens, zoom or fixed focal length, is not a trivial nor inexpensive process. All lenses are multi element, with non dispersion glass. The raw fluorite is very expensive to start with. Then there's polishing, which is a labor intensive, slow, lengthy process. Finally, there's AR coatings to reduce reflection and improve transmission at all the visible wavelengths. So, you can see that the enginnering behind a lens is only a small fraction of the cost. Manufacturers aren't likely to front the cost until they see a market. I doubt they'll see much of a market where so many different mount systems, focal plane to lens distances, and sensor requirements are used.

January 9th, 2008, 05:34 PM	#9
Mikael Widerberg Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 73	Yes Sean, maby 35mm adapters an WA is not good idea. I do now that there are som "industrial purpose" lenses from example Fujinon and they go as wide as 2.8mm and even moore. http://www.fujinon.co.jp/en/products/cctv/index.htm But I gues that I get a better result using my standard Fujinon 16x in combination with a adapter from Schneider Optics ;) Its nothing wrong with adapters like for example the one from Schneider Optics, they do the jobb well I can imagine. Buy you now, with a company like Fujinon cant they just use the glass thats inside the 13x lens and only use the WA part of it (with some modifications offcourse). I meen Its allready made and it would be a nice 3.5mm prime.