Just Purchased a New HD200...Not What I Expected!
 

I just received my new HD200 from my local dealer, brought it home, set it up next to my HD100 (with over 700 hours on the drum), and flipped them both on to begin calibration for a shoot scheduled for next week. Here's the deal:

- The first thing that caught my attention was the sound emitted by the HD200. I guess it has an internal fan, and it is LOUD. I can hear the camera from 3 feet away with no tape rolling -- just turned on and sitting there. By contrast, I can place my ear 2-3 INCHES from the HD100 and hear a faint 'whir'....It renders the on-board mic useless. Before anyone trashes me for even thinking about using the onboard mic for any 'serious' production, that isn't the point.....

- Next, I made certain the (2) cameras were set up identically in SD mode. I set the cameras side by side (the lenses were virtually touching), lit a scene, and white balanced the two cams using the manual trigger. HD100 recognizes 3200k (correct -- I was indoors and this is what I expected). HD200 registers 2500k. Say what?! repeat this procedure a couple of times -- sometimes the 200 WB @ 2500k, other times @ 2800k. HD100 never wavers. Since I'm using the same stock lens on both (no comments from the peanut gallery here, either!), I'm beginning to get a little irritated.

I've got one monitor that has multiple inputs, so I hook up the 200 using video out (composite requires connectors I don't have), and the 100 using composite. I'm switching back and forth between the 2 images, and the 200 is so poor I figure I've done something wrong. Recheck everything -- no change. Okay, must be the video out. I hook up the 100 using the video out -- that's not it. Time to shoot something.

Since I'm not going to be using the supplied mic for the shoot, I figure I'll deal with the noise coming from the cam later. I shoot a couple of one minute tests on each cam -- zoom in, zoom out, pan. Simple, simple, simple. I take the footage, cap it, and play back the two tests. The resulting footage from the 200 is terrible. I zoom all the way in, and as soon as I begin to zoom out, the image degrades terribly (yes, I back-focused the lens). I have a $400 Handy Cam that shoots better. I try a couple of different tests, same result.

Okay, now I want to know if it’s the glass in the 200. I swap lenses. Oops! This doesn’t work. The new lens will work in the 100, but the 100’s lens will not work on the 200. Except for a small ‘B’ marking on one lens and an ‘E’ marking on the other, the lenses appear to be identical. Well, they aren’t. I quadruple check the mounts….the lens from the 100 will not work on the 200 – period.

My dealer is closed, but I’ve got the number to an employee. I ring him up and ask what to do. He says, “Hey, no problem. We’ll send the camera in for repair.” Don’t think so, buddy. I don’t have 20 minutes on the drum and I’m going to have to send it in for multiple repairs? I say I’m not comfortable with that. He asks what I want. I say a new camera. He says he doesn’t think JVC will do that. I say refund. He says he doesn’t think his store does that, but he’ll check.

Maybe I’ve done something wrong here, and if anyone knows what it might be, please enlighten me. I’ve got an (8) day shoot that starts Tuesday. I’ve got talent flying in from several cities. I tried to get the camera earlier so I would have ample time to perform these tests, and my dealer said that he could have the 200 in two days, but JVC ‘dropped the ball’ (he said), so I ended up getting the camera 5 or 6 days later than expected.

So now I’ve got all these two camera scenes planned and only one camera. My dealer does not have an extra anything, so I’m in a bit of a predicament. If anyone has any pull with JVC, I would sure appreciate a little help here.

Best ~ Lee

edited: Changed title of thread to better reflect the issue.

What SCENE file settings are you using?

Did you backfocus with the chart?

What frame rate, iris level, detail level, and shutter speed are you set at?

How does the preset White balance look?

By a poor picture do you mean "soft"?

As for the noise...The loudest camera I've ever heard is the Sony F900. Makes great pictures...just makes it tough on the sound guy.

I was kind of hoping to find out from the experts what might be wrong with his HD200, assuming it was user error. That's the kind of stuff that helps me out with my own shooting... What's the story here?

Just for the record:

I was fully willing to accept that there might be a user error, but I was very, very careful to eliminate that possibility. The noise coming from the cam wasn't a user error, but the resulting footage could have been. I poured over the 200's settings, made absolutely certain that all things were 'created equal', shot the test again -- same result.

I'm a big JVC fan...my original post was not intended to bash JVC -- I just want a 200 that works. As I said originally, I figured I just got a 'lemon', and I know it happens, but if I was wrong and anyone here had experience with the 2 cams and could point me in the right direction, I was willing to try anything.

The standard procedure is to send the camera in to factory service for evaluation and repair. If you're not comfortable with that, then your best course of action is to resolve the return / refund situation with your dealer. Getting a dialog going immediately with your dealer is indeed the very first thing you want to do.

Scene settings: Factory defaults on both cameras. I can load up any of the scene files here and test, but again, that's not the point: I went through every menu setting to ensure the cams were set up identically

Backfocus: Backfocused with a Siemens Star Chart

Iris: Tested both manual and auto. Both cams on auto @ 5.6 on the scene I lit.

Detail Level: Default

Shutter: 1/60

Preset white balance: Now, here's the weird thing: The preset is 3200k. When I WB manually and get 2500k, there is no appreciable difference in the image swtching back an forth between the two. If I dial the 100 down to, say, 2800k and switch between 2800 & 3200, the difference is as one would expect, with the 3200k being significantly warmer.

Frame rate: 60/30 interlaced, SD. Like I said, I just wanted to sync the cameras using the same settings.

By poor picture, I mean it is as if I have not backfocused properly -- I backfocus on the chart (zoom in, zoom out, adjust a few times -- this is not my first rodeo) and everything seems okay. When I shoot, however, I'll pull a close up, and as soon as I start backing out, the image degrades. At infinity (from a focused zoom), nothing is in focus.

As for noise: Doesn't really matter to me what other cameras sound like, I expect the 200 to be as quiet (or nearly so) as the 100. I don't have a decible meter, but as they are measured exponentially, I would say that the 200 is 30db louder than the 200. Not acceptable, especially when the cam is supposed to be billed as 'usable' with the supplied, on-board mic. There is so much noise coming from the camera that there is no way one could use that mic.

Did I answer the questions correctly, or did I misunderstand something? Believe me, I want to solve the problem.

Lee

With all due respect, I disagree. If a camera is faulty out of the box, it should be replaced, not repaired. If there were even just a few hours on the cam I would agree with you.

Just to clarify: Had I taken this camera out of the box at the dealer, turned it on, set it up, lit a scene, capped 3 minutes of video and played it back, I wouldn't have accepted delivery. Is this what a professional is supposed to do whenever they purchase gear -- spend an hour and a half at the dealer deciding if the product is as advertised? I don't think so. I've been in the computer business for 2 decades, and I can't imagine a user purchasing a new computer, having problems from jump-street, and me offering a repair. It's a no-brainer replacement if that's what the customer wants.

I think my dealer will take care of me, though. I just spoke with the owner and he was very cooperative. We'll see how JVC handles it.

I'm not offering an opinion for you to agree or disagree with. I'm simply stating that
like it or not, that's the procedure. How we feel about it is immaterial, unless your
goal is to affect a change in that policy. If so, you have my best wishes as I'm sure
it will be an up-hill battle.

I'm only indicating what the procedure is. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with
the policy. I'm saying that's the structure within which you have to work, or else you'll
have to find a way to force a change in policy, and I don't think that will be an easy
thing to do.

Please keep us advised on how the process goes with your dealer. It's their job to
manage these situations to satisfy you as best they can within their ability to do so.

I've done that with camera gear and other electronics plus the last truck I bought.

I find it alarming that the lenses are not interchangeable.

Can anyone confirm this!?

That's JVC's procedure for dealing with defective out-of-the-box products? Wow....Had I known that, I would have done exactly as I posted -- I'm SURE my dealer would have loved that. Going forward, he knows that I'm going to acquire (2) more 200's in the next 4-6 weeks, and if that's how it's going to shake out, we'll be shooting some video in his store before I walk out.

I'm a dealer for the following: HP, IBM, Sony, Apple, Cisco, and many, many other brands. Not one has ever suggested I send a brand new product in for repair -- bear in mind that I'm not talking about something a week or two old...I'm talking straight out of the box. Interstingly, the JVC has drum and fan meters, so they know if the cam has been used or not.

I understand that you are just forwarding policy. No problem........

Just for the record, had you purchased any of those things from me, you wouldn't have needed to do that.

I bought my wife a Lexus. She drove it for a week before she began experiencing problems. They had a brand new car waiting for her when she arrived at the lot. That's service.

How companies handle problems is the very best indicator of how committed they are to customer service. I believe JVC will do the right thing -- in fact, I'll be stunned if they don't.

That's not going to work. They are NOT identical processors. They will need completely different settings to match.


Interlaced? How does it look at 720 30p?

I don't think it's been established yet that you have a defective camera. What has happened is that your expectations have not been met, so the next step is to determine whether the gear is actually faulty or, perhaps, it's not working the way you think it should because it just doesn't work that way. For example, as Jim Boda points out above, the cameras will not match on identical settings right out of the box, and that's due to different processors, not to any defect.

This is the largest group of JVC Pro HD shooters on the web, so I have no doubt they'll help you get squared away as far as what to expect between these two models (the 100 and 200) and how to use them together.

And that's why I'm here. I completely understand that the processors are different, and I'm more than willing to try anything (and I'll check 720/30p as suggested).

Sorry, though...the noise coming from the camera can't be right. I read a little further that the lenses are supposed to be interchangeable, but they absolutely are not on my cams....maybe that's the issue, some cold-solder joint or something...I don't know.

Re: The processors being different: I read somewhere on here about a user's expectation comparing the 110 and 200 in SD, and the consensus was that the advanced processor in the 200 should yield superior results than SD on the 110. I'll try to find the post and reference it.

Re: Not working the way I think it should: I don't know....hit the WB trigger and the result should be approximately the same regardless of gear, not 700k difference. I mean, a scene is what it is, and a little variance should be expected, but......

Hey, I get it. I post never, everyone else posts everyday -- I have to be a rookie, right? I don't have a problem with that. I know when I have a bad piece of gear, though.

See, here's the thing: Whether I'm shooting in 60/30i, 720p, 24p -- whatever...the 200 is supposed to be a superior product, hence the higher price tag. All things being equal, I shouldn't have to work harder to get equal results. I'm not going to convince you guys of that, and that's fine, too.

You say try it and I will. I defer to you and your experience with the equipment. I've not done anything to earn any respect around this place, and so many of you have -- and that's again why I'm here.

I truly mean it when I say I appreciate the advice. Am I frustrated? Of course I am. Will it turn out that it's me and not the cam? I hope so! That would mean that I have no worries for the upcoming week.

Thanks,

Lee

On this site there is of course absolutely no correlation implied whatsoever between a member's post count and their measure of experience. But a cool head with a non-confrontational posture goes a *long* way on DV Info Net.

And I'm trying to remain that way. I tried earlier to change my post title, but it only changed the subtitle. A member's post count ***shouldn't*** be indicative of their experience, but human nature is what it is.

I'm confguring Dashwood's scene files for the 200 right now (I already have them for the 100). I didn't do this initially because of the focus issues, but I'll re-backfocus (again), load up the same scene files, and give it a run. I'll post the comparitive results when I'm done.

Thanks,

Lee

It definitely seems lens related. Not saying you have done this error...but, there is this little caution in the manual to not mistake the macro adjustment for the back focus. :-)

Anyway, I would check the back focus again after leaving the camera "on" for a while. Your using a small chart and there is a possible margin for error. Make sure you are looking at it on a large monitor...w/ the iris all the way open...w/ the shutter speed compensating for the light...and with the proper distance from the chart.

I second that. what if your hd100 dies of old age and you upgrade to a 200 (body only)? shouldn't you be able to use the 100's lens?

JVC markets these cameras as "Professional". They don't really support them that way. I was in Lee's exact situation about 7 years ago with a brand new DV500. It didn't work properly out of the box and there was an impending shoot. I lost the project because they wouldn't replace it. It took TWO trips to JVC and 3 months in sick bay before the camera was back in my hands and working.

JVC Perfect Experience Statement
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/pepolicy.jsp

Perfect experience program
 

I did not read every post but if you purchased your camera within the past 30 days you can utilize JVC's perfect experience program. The link to the site is: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/pepolicy.jsp

This program allows an exchange of your faulty camera for a brand new one. If you authorize jvc to charge your card the total amount temporarily to ensure your camera is sent back, JVC will send you your new camera next day(extremely fast). Once your faulty camera is received they will remove the charged amount. I have had my hd200 and 100 and both work perfectly. Your camera may just be faulty.

Hope this helps!

Thank you for that link -- man, there's a reason I don't grey market shop.

A really quick update: I'm setting up Dashwood's scenes, and as I mentioned before, the cam is pretty loud. Every once in a while, the sound from the cam changes a little, and when it does, there's a glitch on the LCD -- I'm not doing aything other than looking at the LCD (not changing between menus, etc.). I have it hooked up to a monitor, but I haven't caught it there yet.

I'm as back-focused as I personally can get the cam to be. I'm just going to load up CineWide, fire away, and see what happens.

Thanks again,

Lee

P.S. I will try to change the lenses again on the chance that I made an error.

I would definitely try the lenses again. I'm 99.999% sure that they are interchangeable. See if both lenses work on both units.

Regarding the fan- I own two 200's and they behave exactly the same. There is a slight whirring but it's BY FAR not loud enough to get picked up by my Audio Technica shotgun mics.

The overworking fan is a give-away of sorts. There is something on the motherboard that's gone very wrong. The "degrading picture", if it's degrading by the way of pixelation or other digital artifact, is a sign of processor failure especially if this problem is coming directly out of the camera not by way of tape playback. If the lens works on the HD100 then the lens is likely OK.

Try the camera on battery power only or the AC adapter if you haven't used both yet. Probably you'll get the same result. See if there's a full reset for the 200 (I don't have one). You might try turning the camera on with any power source connected. Some cameras can be reset this way although I can't vouch that this works for the HD200.


I think the "JVC Perfect Experience" option is going to be your out here.

Hi Lee,
I own a 200, but frequently use a clients 100 and 110.
My 200 is louder than those cameras. It doesn't roar, or change in tone, but it is noticeable. Others have complained about this too. It's a fan, and like computer or hard drive fans, if it isn't installed properly or gets misaligned, they can be louder than they should. The 200 has a more powerful processor, and generally requires more cooling though in my understanding.
30db louder would be intolerable though, and in itself suggests a problem.

Regarding the white balance, 2800K is a pretty common for an internal scene.
It takes strict studio lighting and bright white to get 3200, although I often prefer the slightly warmer tone of the preset. I don't pay a lot of attention to this number generally, but the 200 may actually be more accurate here.

The softening of the image on zoom out is a real concern though. One of my clients had problems with this, and others have reported it, in some cases with uneven focus over the frame. In that case we suspected metal burrs on the lens mounting area. In the case I investigated, I removed the lens, inspected and wiped the areas, put the lens back on, back-focused with a large monitor and chart with the aperture wide open and the problem was gone. An optical issue really seems to be the most likely problem with these symptoms. I wonder if the lens interchange problem could be related? Maybe a close examination of the lens and camera's mounts might turn up something. The lenses should definitely be interchangeable.

If there is an optical problem, then that would explain poor results overall.

I wouldn't expect Tim's Superwide setting (cinewide is the 100 version I think) to be the best comparison setting.

I also haven't compared at standard rez between cams. Mine looks good to me in NTSC DV, and in comparing at HD looks as good or better than the 100 series.

This is certainly an appropriate case for the JVC Perfect Experience clause. As well as your dealer, find out who your JVC regional sales manager is, and contact them directly. Document the symptoms well, as you have here.

JVC actually services it's pro customers very well, but take the extra effort to make sure that you get personal attention from a rep there rather than just sending it back to your dealer.

and of course, keep us posted. I'll be curious to hear what these symptoms turn out to indicate. I think it's unlikely you'd be disappointed with my 200.

Lee, the difference in color temperature is correct, the two cameras report different values. I had exactly the same experience. It's puzzling but consistent. The lenses should be interchangeable, I was able to swap them as much as I wonted. The degradation of the image is not normal but in general I like the image of the HD100 more than the HD200/250.
Given your deadline I would suggest to try to find another HD100 in your area and shoot in that way. Solve the issues with the HD200 later, without the schedule conflict.

Good luck.

Thank you all for the replies. Here's what I've done so far (we had company earlier, or I would have had this completed already):

-(2) tests - One with T.D's Cine Wide Lattitude, the other with his Low-Light recipe.

I backfocused both using a star chart and a large monitor. I did the best I could do.

I'm about to capture the video. Even though it will only be about 4 minutes of video, I will have to compress the footage for upload. I'll use a .wmv codec at 1500mbps CBR. I know it's not ideal, but for this test, it will at least compare apples to apples.

I'll capture the footage from the same device to eliminate yet another possible variable.

Due to the file sizes, I shot both of these in SD 60i.

Lens interchangability: They are interchangeable....I have no idea why it didn't work the first time, but it does now, so I'll chaulk it up to user error.

I did clean all of the glass thoroughly on both.

I'll post the links with the results as soon as they are available. I'll let you guys be the judge and jury on whether I'm a nut case or not.....

Thanks,

Lee

Lee,

Check the macro switch on your 200 lens and make sure that it wasn't bumped off it's detent position. If it's off it's detent, it will affect the lens like the back focus is off only worse in most cases. If it's in the correct setting then it could be an internal problem with the macro.

Ben

Thanks, Ben. I checked the macro switch on both cams before the test. Here's a link with test footage shot with both cameras. I uploaded the clips as .avi's, so the files are large. I don't expect many folks will want to take the time to download them, but for those that do, your feedback is appreciated. Please bear in mind that this test was not intended to be an adventure in cinematography ;)

http://www.devserv1.com/TestVids/vidTest.html

Try swapping the lens.

Well, my first reaction is that CAM 1 creates a noticable cleaner line on the bar handles on the dishwasher and oven...definitely less artifacts.

Without doing a side by side camparison...Cam 2 looks brighter. What are your iris settings for both cams?

The HD200 is a bit more light sensible than the HD100, if the same iris position is used on both cameras it is normal to have a brighter image on the HD200.

I have both cameras also, I never tried to change lenses... now I'm curious, I'll try it asap.

I also have different colour temperatures readings, I don't know which one is more accurate but I think I never had a readding bellow 3000k on the HD100... maybe it's the lowest it goes. I'm used to have different values on different brand cameras... but I also found it strange to have such a difference between my two JVCs. In fact I had some difficult matching their image settings.

Lee, your camera is damaged for sure. These cameras have a slight difference on their image, but not as you report. For me the HD200 is better, it handles the dark tones better.

It really stinks that I don't have two identical systems to run the video side by side, and playback in Real Player is quite a bit different than WMP.

The iris setting was auto on both for this test. The cameras were set at the same height with the lenses virtually touching.

I'm not going to give away which one is which just yet. I will say that after I set the cameras up identically there was much less difference in the two images, but to my eye, there is still a winner. Given that the 200 has a 'better' processor, it should be clear.

Notice the difference in the first test when I went to AWB? Interesting......

I noticed a more than neglible amount of difference in the low light setting, too.

Ok...I finally downloaded the clips...I was just taking a peak at a small sample online earlier.

I definitely like the warmer preset white balance on CAM 1. And like I said before, CAM 1 shows less artifacts w/ the straight lines. However, there is a different noise there in the darker scene that I don't like.

I'm not sure going "AUTO IRIS" is a good way to do the test.

Both CAMS have some DEAD PIXELS...Cam 2 has a really obvious one.

Exchange Policy
 

Hi Lee,

As Matt has pointed out, JVC Professional (US) does have a 30 day replacement policy, as you have read on the link below. If you feel that the camera is defective, please do not hesitate to call our Customer Care Center for assistance - 1-800-582-5825. Selece option 7. Keep in mind that the hours of operation are 9 AM to 5 PM Easterd Time, Monday thru Friday.

I've only quickly scanned through this thread, and I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll directly address Lee's originating post as best as I can. My apologies to anyone who may have already answered these questions.

Yes. There is a small fan at the back of the 200/250, in the bottom of the battery mount section. This fan kicks in sometimes, presumably to cool the components of the power supply. One of the the most common first-observations when using a HD200 or HD250 is the audible noise coming from this fan. I've even heard it kick in when outside during the winter.

This another common observation when setting any two ProHD cameras side-by-side and manually/auto white balancing. Besides the fact that different lenses having different coatings (or other characteristics) may throw off the readings, there is also a calibration issue at hand here. My understanding is that the camera's feedback of "2800K" "3200K" "4200K" etc needs to be calibrated somehow to the actual readings. As far as I know this is first set at the factory but can be adjusted by the engineer at JVC when all the other calibrations are done. It seems that no two cameras are "exactly" set up the same with regards to this feedback system. The important thing to remember is that if you have pressed the AWB button and the white point has been set it is "correct" for that white source, even though your tungsten source may show up as 2800K instead of 3200K, those two cameras' signals will match. I suggest using an 18% grey card and angle it toward your light source.

"Terrible" could mean quite a few things. I first assumed you meant that the image from the HD200 was "noisier" than the HD100. This is the second most common observation of the HD200 series cameras, and something I've spoken about before. I know it seems counter-intuitive since the HD200 series cameras have the new 14-bit DSP, but there is no doubt about it there is more noise in the lower IRE than there ever was on the HD100 series. Even on 0dB gain, with the gamma response turned down and the black crushed slightly you will see this noise.

You mention that zooming the lens out the image "degrades." Do you mean it loses focus? This is back-focus, and if that is happening then back-focus is not set properly. Make sure the lens is not in macro mode, then make sure you open the aperture all the way to F1.4 and put your chart about 15 feet away from the camera. Zoom in and front focus, zoom out and back focus, repeat, then lock the back focus ring.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The mounts are EXACTLY the same and any lens that works on one will work on the other. I swap lenses and accessories between the HD100/110/200/250 all the time.
The obvious thing to check for is damage to the mount. Is anything bent? Is there a metal shard inside the mount anywhere that won't allow it to sit flush?

I can't really comment on the policies of your dealer. We heard every kind of story possible from amazing personal experiences with dealers (like mine) to horror stories. JVC seems to step-in in the latter case when necessary, but for the most part you are the customer and it is in your dealer's best interest to take care of you.

After looking at the footage I can only make a few comments.

- Clip 1 has a little more problems with diagonal lines and alias artifacts than clip 2.

- Clip 2 is slightly murkier in image quality to clip 1. And slightly noisier to clip 1.

- White balance is eventually better in clip 1.

I am not seeing the "degrading image" mentioned before although the aliasing is annoying. Please try the same tests in HDV and post some full-res stills. I am curious if the aliasing is a product of the in-camera downconversion to DV resolution.

Okay, enough fun....

Here's what JVC and my dealer have done:

- JVC had no problem with the overnight replacement. The 'full-time-fan' is not normal...

--BUT--

- There are apprently no more 200's available until about the 1st week in April. As in JVC would overnight one if they had it, but there are some mods being made and they simply have no stock.

- My dealer has gotten a 250 for me to use for my shoot.

Cam 1 is the 100. Cam 2 is the 200.

Thank you all for your input. I think my expectations will be more in line with reality when I receive the new cam, though I will be disapointed if, ultimately, I can't tweak the 200 to perform better than the 100. With that said, they said they would be happy to swap the 200 for a 110 should that be the case.

Thanks again,

Lee

I wonder if a 200A is in the works for NAB? And, I wonder what could/would be improved?

Steve