successful FCP native HDV capture
 

we'd all just about given up that FCP would ever capture HDV via FW without breaks and various problems ( Prem Pro does a MUCH MUCH better job ).

so now I have a setup thats been bullet proof so far on a G5 2.5G running FCP 6.0.2 / QT 10.4.1+.

use the HDV->ProRes preset !

its been reliable, it actually captures the TC unlike the AIC preset which does not. it captures over breaks - sometimes you get a new clip, sometimes not, but the point is everything comes in.

the downside is its a "hard" capture. FCP throws the deck into play without machine control you can touch and just loads the footage. ProRes does take about 5X more space, but does provide benifits like being able to load the footage into combustion which wants nothing to do with HDV native material. for me this would of saved at least one full week of time loading 30hrs of material. you can put a tape in at the head, start capture, and walk away. no its not quite a fully native mpeg2 capture, but prores is the next best thing.

Steve,

When it does start a new clip how much time does it lose before capturing again?

I don't think its losing anything, or if it is, just a few frames. it only breaks on camera cuts so far as I've seen. I've loaded some longer 5-6 minutes clips without a problem, and if anything it tends to simply capture over camera cuts about 50% of the time. depends on the tape.

its a vastly better way to go if the HD space isn't critical. My G5 won't capture ProRes HD 720 via using the Kona SDI or analog inputs, but it will happily capture the HDV stream via FW and convert to prores reliably. this brings new life to the older machine.

I came across this exact same method last week after doing a two camera shoot with my 111E (with up to date software upgrades) and a rented 251E.
Importing 720 25p from the 251E camera as HDV resulted in a loss of 7-8 seconds from each shot. I thought I had previously resolved this issue by making adjustments to the settings in FCP but with the footage from the 251E it wasn't working. I don't usually use the tape from my own 111E as I have a DR HD100.
Re-setting FCP 6.0.2 to import HDV720p ProRes(HQ) resulted in the 251E footage importing with a loss of 6 frames from the head of each shot, well actually not lost, this 6 frames was imported as a separate shot! One shot was 35 mins long and came in as a single file(other than the 6 seconds at the head).
As I now had the 251 footage as ProRes I needed to capture the 111E footage the same, this came in perfectly, each shot complete with all frames (longest take about 11 minutes).
This definitely appears to be the best way to bring footage into FCP6 but I don't know why the there was a 6 frame loss on the newer 251E, although it was not a problem for editing.

The other benefit of ProRes422 over AIC is that is that it actually captures TC, which is awesome if you need to batch capture later.

[QUOTE=Steve Oakley;854625]
so now I have a setup thats been bullet proof so far on a G5 2.5G running FCP 6.0.2 / QT 10.4.1+.

use the HDV->ProRes preset !

its been reliable, it actually captures the TC unlike the AIC preset which does not. it captures over breaks - sometimes you get a new clip, sometimes not, but the point is everything comes in.


I'm getting the same results with a G5 DP 2.0, Kona card, 4 GB Ram, 2TB Raid.

I assume you mean via FW. the kona -> prores HD captures never work for me. that said, it seems that with the latest QT and FCP updates, apple has pre-released a little some upcoming features I think. I today captured 192khz 24bit audio - something that was never supported. played 8 tracks of it back in the TL, although FCP was downconverting it to 96khz 24bit... which was still quite fine.

Yes, the captures were over firewire.

I've really been burried for the last couple weeks shooting and I come back to find this! GREAT NEWS!

-Adam

What are the exact Easy Setup Settings?

The only one I can find is HDV>Apple ProRes 422 1080p24.

Daniel Weber

Upgrade
 

Has anyone had success capturing via FW in FCP after upgeading the firmware for the BR-HD50? (Version 1.09)

V1.09 didn't change anything in regards to FW capture that I've noticed. I 've had it installed for a week.

the preset simple says "HDV - ProRes" there is no other info attached to it. its at the bottom of the presest list. machine control is HDV. maybe some one wa s playing with making a preset on your machine as thats not a stock setting in FCP6.x

not to take this out of subject...but does anyone know where I can find minimum specs for a G5 running Final Cut Pro to edit my GY-HD100 footage?

Before I got into HDV i was able to edit all day and night using my 2GHz Intel Core Duo MacBook Pro with FCP 5.1.4. Now with my JVC HDV footage, I am chug chug chugging along and it is killing me. I am not looking for something like super high end...I just want at least to do two layer video without crapping my computer...mabe I would need a cheapy BlackMagic card?

Any ideas?

BTW, just for information, I was delighted to see that Premiere interfaces with the HD100 without any of the problems showed by FCP. I still have to put some stress to it but for anybody considering editing on a Mac with the HD100, Premiere is perfectly functional.

Paolo:

so the clips are not chopped up into many clips? Is this is true, then this would be the way to go. What would make Premiere better or equal to FCP?

Your computer is plenty fast enough. The weak link in your speed chain is probably your HD. Where are you storing your media?

I got all my media in an external Lacie Terrabyte drive...I've also tried in smaller 250GB drive modules via firewire...but it chugs

All right, I did a test with one full tape. Not a single broken clip, not a single dropped frame. Just to be thorough I switched to other applications during the capture, ran a couple of SQL queries, refreshed a few Safari tab, still not a dropped frame. And the clip in interpreted correctly at 23.976 fps. I'm very, very pleased.

In my opinion Premiere has now the upper hand. At the video level we have:

- multi-format editing. FCP is bound to QuickTime only. Premiere works directly with .m2t file, other mpeg variants and others. You can pretty much convert everything to QT but this option makes your life easier.
- Image sequence are supported. A feature important for VFX work.
- Multicamera editing. Synch of multiple clips is actually more flexible in Premiere as it supports synchronization via markers.
- Sound. FCP is still pretty primitive when it comes to sound processing. Premiere allows you to work with surround sound 5.1 in the timeline and supports VST plugins.
- Dynamic link with AE. Copy a piece of the timeline, switch to After Effetcs, paste in it, apply effects, now Premere and After Effects are updated in real time. This was, BTW, the main reason for me to switch. To get full compatibility with my HD100 is icing on the cake!
Finally, I can say goodbye to the DVHSCap/MPEGStream clip workaround.

There are many other features but I'll cover them in another place, I don't want to "highjack" the thread too much.

Hi Paolo.

I've been looking at the Adobe Suite for a while. So your experiences are of great interest. I'll start a new thread in the Mac forum where I'll have a couple of questions.

Thanks!

Hello Charles,

You may want to look into a CalDigit Express card along with a supported drive. I suggest something from G-Tech.

Send us the link so we I can take a look at it...interested also in the native plug-in capabilities.



but I do need a G5 for this right?

The Express card is for the MacBook Pro.

Hi Charles.

Here's the link:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=120462

I'll also note that the 3.2 release of Prem Pro can also handle corrupt Mpeg2 streams from drop outs, really bad ones. Prem can go thru and flag bad frames, then resync after the bad frames so the audio stays locked. thats really impressive. compare that to FCP which seems to barf at one bad bit of data, while Prem Pro will just take it in and run with it.

True, I noticed that Premiere actually creates a log in the Info window showing the possible data/timecode breaks. Those entries in the log can the be used to just to the location without having to scrub manually.

This is promising. I hope Apple follows suit with the next version of FCP.

I hope all you guys don't make the switch...the FCP help pool on here just won't be the same!
Funny, I deliberately made the switch from Prem Pro on the PC to FCP on the Mac due to poor behaviour, although to be fair that was mainly down to the PC.
Still, interested in the link up between AE (which I'm keen on getting my hands on) and the entire suite.
I tend to use Logic Pro for audio so not really sure if this favours one NLE over the other.
I guess apple won't close the loopholes associated with the HD100, but I'll stick with FCP for some time. I made the switch from Cubase to Logic and it was almost like using a different language....frustrating indeed.

David, I still have FCP but the lack of support by Apple for some essential features, like image sequences, mpeg, and integration with After Effects made me finally cross the threshold. I just remembered that when I got my HD100, winter 2005, a friend of mine, with Premiere on a PC, was able to capture footage right away while for the past 2 years we have gone from struggle to struggle with FCP. We got the "A" upgrade that was supposed to improve things with the NLE, we got endless updates, it's still broken. I tried Premiere and I was surprised how easy it was to pick up. The downside of Premiere is the performance. I's not as optimized as FCP to run with non-specialized hardware, but it's getting there.
At the end of the day I just use what tool makes sense for the job and right now Premiere is a very good solution for HD100/250 owners and the integration with After Effects makes post work and color correction really easy.

Absolutely Paulo - in fact I've just had my HD100 back from JVC - the (A) upgrade, latest firmware and some [unknown??] motherboard replacement...tried to capture natively and still no luck (although this was on footage captured 'pre-op' if that makes any difference)!
The workarounds are often a ball and chain to creativity - you just want it to do what it says on the tin, not fiddle with sub programs.
Be interested to see what apple does over the next year or so - I had Prem Pro down as losing the NLE battle (and I believe the BBC have bought into FCP in a big way).
Had I AE and critical colour programs I'd be tempted to take a look again at Prem. Is much of the Adobe suite rocky for intel macs?

Well, I've been using AE CS3 for a while and it runs just fine. I started using the rest of the Master Series recently but it seems pretty stable.

Paolo, I have a couple follow up questions.

1. How is the DVD encoding from HDV down to DVD? I saw a friend's recent Adobe Premier Pro DVD project and it looked very good, I thought it looked less edgy than what FCP had done, though it was with a different camera and format.

2. Does Adobe Premier support the JVC SD-HDV 60p format that is on the JVC HD100/110? If so I'll order the program on pay day.

Other than that, getting a Focus Enhancement's drive (that captures in MT2 and Quicktime) solved all of my problems with breaks, and dramaticaly speeds up my workflow when back at home at the ned of the day.

Alex, I don't have direct experience with those 2 techniques. Adobe's website at http://www.adobe.com/products/premie...as&format=NTSC lists "full support" for the camera.
I'll do a test later on. If I forget please give me a reminder :)

Personally, I'm surprised at the number of people still having problems capturing native HDV to FCP (and by native, here I mean HDV to the NLE drives without transcoding). Using the BR-HD50 and footage from updated cameras in FCP 5.14 or 6, with settings to minimum pre-roll, it just works. The footage is broken into clips ONLY at every camera pause - but I like that! - it saves me time in editing. There may be a second or so loss at these points, which could affect certain work I suppose, but I start rolling early and roll late as a matter of habit (had to edit my own footage on linear A/B systems back in the day which needed pre-roll too!).

I had glitches which wouldn't capture properly when I first started with this, over a year ago, but it's been a total non-issue - in fact the DVHS-cap/mpegstreamclip workflow was a major let down for me when I went back to it assuming that would be better for footage that all had to be transcoded to DVCPro-HD. Aargh! lost time-code, lost sync, lost frames (got repeated frames for effective 12fps look!). FCP captured whole tapes, created individual clips of each roll, and with media manager converted all to DVC-pro perfectly with not a single mid clip interruption in 13 hours.
No question, the tape you use and general maintenance is more important than SD DV. If you are getting dropout, that has to be addressed, and the JVC camera updates only work with improving the recorded tape - not playing back a problematic one. So if PPro can capture through dropouts, that is a great thing, and I certainly hope Apple can integrate that type of error correction into their capture. It's a real good thing to know about if this crops up for some reason.

In fact I'm sure PPro is better for some types of programming. If I was doing commercial spots with lots of graphics and FX, I know I'd want the native AE integration and other features. But I sync multi-cams pretty well in fcp and I really like it's long form tools. Much of it is personal, I hate switching tools unless I'm really motivated by results, but I'll take extra time and trouble to stick with an app and workflow that does the majority of my work well.

Sean, the problems still persist and it's not a matter of using a brand of tape instead of another. DVHSCap has not problem in capturing the footage, FCP has. HDVxDV gulps the whole tape, FCP breaks the continuos footage in multiple clips. This is not the start and stop situation that you described, in fact in that case I do expect FCP to create new clips.
I have lots of tapes, and they are single 1-hour takes with no dropouts that work in all programs except FCP. It's not a matter of Premiere ignoring the timecode breaks, it works with these tapes as expected.
I am happy that your setup works but the reality is that the majority of HD100 users can't capture single take, tape-long clips.

FWIW- I have no problems with HD200 footage (720p60) over firewire with BR-HD50 using FCP and Leopard. All software and firmware updated.

The only hiccup comes when the deck plays back a dropout (which is not on the tape) so a new clip is created which wasn't a start/stop.

I can load 2-3 tapes perfectly, then I'll have one that will just give FCP fits. you never know. yes I'm using good tape - panasonic AMQ.

as for multicam, once you learn Prem Pro's multicam, you'll NEVER go back to FCP for multicam. PP does this so much better then FCP it isn't even funny. basically PP lets you set up a TL with your cameras in it on each V track, then you place it into another and cut away. since PP uses a normal TL, you can fix things like where somebody stopped to change a battery. you just make the cut, then resync the remaining clip. easy easy. if you make changes in the source TL, they ripple into the master edit. PP also removes old edits if you decide to redo a section, FCP just keeps adding more edits. Prem Pro is the Porsche, FCP is a hugo when it comes to multicam.

Very interesting, Paolo.

I am very interested in data from anyone who has gotten the latest "camera firmware updates" and is still experiencing mid-clip breaks with FCP.

For example, I noticed this post made just today:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....6&postcount=12

Other NLE companies seem to be able to make their NLEs work with ProHD footage ingestion by fixing their NLE. They adapt their NLE so that it will work with the camera. Yet Apple seems to be saying to JVC, "Adapt your camera so that it will work with our NLE."

And guess which seems to be the only NLE still giving problems with the ingestion of ProHD footage?

To me, two things are now clear.

1/ JVC seems to have bent over backwards to accommodate Apple by coming up with firmware updates.

2/ Apple have been working on a wrong target (i.e. trying to solve the wrong problem).

If you had a car with four flat tyres, you might go to the tyre company and say, "It's really hard to drive." The tyre company then says, "You're not getting enough traction. You need to install the latest firmware for your automatic transmission."

You install it and find you do have more power and you are now able to drive (on the wheel rims, tearing up the road pavement as you go) to the corner store and buy your loaf of bread. But now you say, "Gee, the motor is now overstraining." The tyre company says, "You need to use lower-viscosity motor oil." (Read higher-quality camera tapes.) And later you point out that it's extremely difficult to steer (with four flat tyres) and they say, "You need to use this new brand of power steering fluid," (switching to a computer with Intel chips or getting a faster hard drive with more free space). And yes, you do now find that it's now a little less difficult to steer and turn a corner on your wheel rims.

And so it goes on, each new symptom being directed for its "solution" in everything else except the tyres. (REC or REGEN, anybody?)

And you can't help but notice that drivers of the same model car go to their (different from yours) tyre companies with their four flat tyres and those companies re-design their tyres and give them thicker walls and better treads, etc. and send their customers driving off with non-flat tyres.

That brings me to point 3:

3/ Apple's FCP unit seems under-resourced to give the proper care and attention to correctly analyze the true cause of their ProHD ingest problems and then correct it.

and

4/ I think (or perhaps hope) Steve Jobs might shortly solve all of the above problems by reducing the major NLE players (Adobe, Apple and Avid) down to two (i.e. buy one of the other tyre companies who are providing non-flat tyres). Much in the same way that he simply bought the companies who make Shake and Color. He realized that he didn't have the resources to make these from scratch, so he bought them. Isn't that what he did to get FCP in the first place?

I might expand on this last point over in the Area 51 forum but, as far as my first three points go, I'm concluding that camera firmware is not solving the majority of FCP ingest problems. And is therefore a wrong target.

Unless we get 100% of members reporting zero ingest problems since upgrading to the latest firmware. In which case I'll rush out and upgrade tomorrow!

David: I agree whole heartedly with your first three points. I await my first ever JVC camera, the HD200UB, which should be arriving next week. I dread trying to integrate it into my workflow, based on issues raised in this forum. However, I must point out that point 4 doesn't ring with me, personally. I don't WANT to lose FCP. I learned to edit on AVID and respect Media Composer and the rest of the pro lines, but I was able to start my company based on an Apple FCP workflow while AVID was still tens of thousands of dollars and Premiere was still a multimedia "toy". I don't WANT to leave my platform of choice. I have invested many thousands of hours into learning its workflow and developing mine. So while I agree that this issue is unconscionable, I can't support any decision that rids me of MY CHOICE in NLEs.

Need more pressure on Apple to make it work? Tell me how and I'll put my weight (which is quite considerable, physically speaking) behind it. But don't take away my bread and butter.

Respectfully yours,
Shaun

And please note that I'm not quickly jumping on a sandbox and pointing fingers. I've been patient and waited 2 years for Apple to fix it. When I bought the HD100 I "failed" to read the fine print in their compatibility document which listed the HD100 as supported. 24p was not :( OK, so I wait a couple of years and the problems are far from being solved. In the meantime the HVX200, which came out much later, gets full support. At that point I started smelling a rat. JVC's implementation of the HDV capture cannot possibly be so exotic to not being understandable by Apple. Especially since *everybody else* got it right. So, now I'm thinking politics. And I just had enough of all this nonsense. I tried Premiere, it works beautifully, the multi-camera support is better, the ripple-edits are better, m2t files, which are what you get by using direct-to-disk recording, are supported with a simple drag-and-drop. And the list goes on. Tell you the truth, IMHO, I find Premiere a much more professional tool than FCP.

Right, there is a great article on WikiPedia about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Cut_Pro#History

Well, that's not gonna happen any time soon. FCP is very strong in the market and for good reasons. In good measure because of Adobe's foolish decision to stop porting Premiere to the Mac OS years ago. The corrected the move last year with the release of PPro CS3 for the Mac but all these years Apple had pretty much free reign and that established their market and FCP is not a bad editor, it just has some limitations that can be important depending on what you do. Tell you the truth, your skills in FCP are actually more marketable today and if I get asked to edit something in FCP I will take the job. Gladly. But, if I'm free to choose the platform I go with Premiere. There is another reason. There is a lot of talk about Color but the fact is that, for many, many videographers, the power of Color is overkill. On the other hand the usefulness of After Effects is generally much larger because it doesn't stop at CC, which it can do at the level of a DaVinci system, just not in real time. So, from my own point of view, it's much more useful to be able to go from the NLE to After Effects than from the NLE to Color. An example is this commercial shot, for the beginning segment, with my HD100. The opening shot features a bar of red-hot metal being hammered. In reality the bar was totally cold and the effect, including CC and masking, was applied in After Effects. It could not have been done in Color.

I don't think that it's a matter of pressure. For more than two years we've been discussing this and the results are still less than inspiring. I just think that it's one of those features that Apple simply considers low-priority.