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Originally Posted by Michael Maier
You just can't compare a trade show unit, which has been used and abused, to a normal running unit. I rather go by Nate's experience, who I know is using the camera the way it should be used in normal shooting conditions, than go by some bad moments had in a trade show with a public unit. But that's just me.
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I agree. Which is why I said what I said. But the point was not whether the camera had been used properly, etc., but to point out that HDV is still susceptible, and the only "myth" going on is that ProHD is "more resistant" to dropouts than DV. That's a silly (and even outrageous) claim. The only way to improve dropout "resistance" is by using a better tape. Dropouts are not dependent on the format, or on any shuffling of tracks, etc. Dropouts happen because there's a fault with the tape -- either a speck of dust, or something flakes off the tape, etc. The only thing ProHD could try to do would be to minimize the impact of a dropout, but they cannot in any way minimize the occurrence of dropouts.
And as the tape I showed demonstrated, ProHD does indeed appear to handle dropouts differently. On the Sony, each of those dropouts would have resulted in a half-second freeze-up. On the JVC, it just scragged portions of the picture.
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I say myth, because I remember in the early days of DV, all the pros, and also sony, in a desperate effort to protect their higher end line, were saying DV wasn't good enough because it had lots of dropouts and etc.
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When did that become a "myth", or a "desperate effort"? It's the truth. DV is a dropout-prone format. I get an average of three glitches per tape. It's not an overwhelming amount, but it's irritating and I can well understand why the news business is now 70% DVCPRO (and not DV). For average users that may not be much, but for pros who are shooting news (inherently a one-take business) dropouts are extremely irritating. Which is why Sony and Panasonic both immediately developed alternate formats to reduce dropout occurrence.
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Today, DV is used for professional work in large scale. Where did the DV dropout myth go?
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The "myth" I can't speak for, but the dropout reality is with us every bit as much as it always was. Moreso as a camera ages, too (my brand-new camera rarely had a dropout in the early days, but showed more as the hours racked up on the heads). Just shot a short film in the desert last February, and the additional factor of wind & desert meant that we got an average of two or three dropouts PER MINUTE. (never shoot in the desert without some sort of rain cover or something!) Every take we'd have to stop, rewind, pand play back, just to make sure there were no dropouts. Also, I used to shoot a 28-minute local television show in three 9-minute takes, and I could count on having to fix at least a couple of dropouts in every episode. Usually little tiny "sparkly" dropouts, usually not the big ugly "venetian blind" dropouts.
Dropouts are a reality. Their frequency can be mitigated somewhat by using the same brand of tape, high-quality tape, cleaning the heads, etc. But they do happen. It's the nature of the format (and it's a primary reason DVCAM and DVCPRO were developed). And dropouts affect HDV a lot more significantly than they do DV.
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I hear the HDV codec is less prone to dropouts than DV.
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Ah, now there's the myth! That's patently impossible. Dropouts happen because of the tape, not the codec that's written on the tape.
What JVC has done is scramble the data around on the tape, so they can minimize the impact of a dropout AS COMPARED TO SONY's FORMAT. A Sony dropout seizes the entire GOP. A JVC dropout scrags a portion of the picture (and occasionally seizes a whole GOP, I've seen that too). But in both cases the dropouts are far more destructive to the picture than they are in DV. Look at the clips I posted again -- every dropout is a significant scrag that lasts for multiple frames. That's the nature of having a GOP-based codec -- if something gets scragged, it's scragged for the duration of the GOP and there's *no way* around that. Sony drops the whole GOP, JVC just lets the scrag play through, but it happens. With DV, that dropout may have glitched a little bit of one frame. With HDV, it's going to affect an entire GOP, each and every time. Dropouts are always uglier on HDV than they would have been on DV.
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How many professionals out there shoot DV with a direct to disk solution?
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Don't know. But I do know that more of us are doing so. I have DV Rack on every shoot I do now. Obviously not possible for ENG work, but for anything where there's a "video village", I shoot on DV Rack every time. And I won't be caught without the FireStore on the HD100 either. Others may have different levels of tolerance, but one thing is inescapable: users *will* get hit with dropouts. Some will find the risk acceptable. I'm tired of it, I don't find it acceptable.
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If HDV is safer, I'm sure even more people will take the "risk". As many put it, just use high grade tape rather than the 5 tapes for a dollar deals one finds around.
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Anyone using cheap tapes, especially with HDV, is just asking for it. There's a reason Sony introduced $25 "HDV" tapes! If you're going to shoot on tape, the only thing you can do to minimize dropouts is to use better tape.
Look, all I'm saying is that dropouts do happen. Pretending they don't serves no valid purpose. They do happen, if you're recording to tape they will happen, and that doesn't mean the camera won't succeed, it just means that it's a risk-management game you have to play. I would think that anyone who values their footage (and, frankly, if you don't value your footage, what are you doing shooting on high-def?) would want to be aware of what the risks are, and what the options are for minimizing that risk.
For some people, the cost savings of using a $3 tape will be worth whatever dropouts they get (that ain't me, but I know that a lot of people will choose that option). For some, using a $5 tape will provide all the margin of safety they think they'll need (and I wish them well). For others, using the $18-$25 HDV tape will be what they think they need to do. For guys like me, with zero tolerance for scragged footage, that means a backup recording mechanism (HDV Rack or DR-HD100). Pick your level of risk and your strategy of management and go forward. But do so with your eyes open, recognizing the very real issue of dropouts and their more-serious impact on HDV footage. Don't cling to the false notion that dropouts are a "myth", or you'll be hating life when you get hit with 'em.