HD100U Split Screen Will Not Be Fixed?

[Thomas Smet]

The HD100 does actually process the full 50p/60p even though it doesn't record it on tape.

1280x720x60=55296000
1440x1080x30=46656000

1280x720=921600
1440x540=777600

That gives the JVC an almost 19% increase.

The Z1 also only takes 960 pixels instead of 1440.

1280x720x60=55296000
960x1080x30=31104000

That gives the JVC a 78% increase.

The HC1 is only a single chip so maybe it only has 1/3 of the data to deal with.

1280x720x60x3=165888000
1920x1080x30x1=62208000

That gives the JVC a 267% increase.

The JVC HD1 and HD10 were single chip as well as only 30p.

1280x720x60x3=165888000
1280x720x30x1=27648000

This gives the HD100 a 600% increase.


We including JVC are very interested to see how Canaon has dealt with this issue since they claim to use full 1440x1080 chips. Even though this would still place it 19% under the JVC's datarate I don't think that would be enough to prevent this issue.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

Having the restriction of not be able to use gain at all is a deal-breaker for me personally as far as buying one goes.

It was established 2 weeks ago that gain has almost nothing to do with SSE.

The facts:

1) You do not want to use gain above +12dB because of noise, not because of SSE. For film work, I would limit gain to +6dB for max. image quality. Not because of SSE.

2) If you need to use more than +12dB gain the color will be desaturate and the color balance will be off. (JVC should have limited gain to +12dB, as the gain above this point is useless.)

3) When you use gain, there must be enough light so that WITH gain you get an AVERAGE exposure of at least F4. Given that one often uses gain in situations that have an lot of dark areas and a few bright areas -- you want to expose the dark areas for F2. In short, you expose just as you would any negative film.

The only times you'll get SSE is if you are in a very dark situation where even using +12dB gain the iris still reports it is OPEN. That is your warning sign. If the iris is open at +12dB gain, you clearly do not have enough light.

REDEFINING SSE:

Every camera -- when not getting suficient light does something bad to the image. Some lose chroma saturation. Some go magenta or green. Some have fixed pattern noise. Some have a picture full of AM chroma noise. Some have a picture full of PM chroma noise. Some only have noise on reds. Some have luma noise. The JVC has SSE. All of these "bads" make the video unusable -- unless of course you capture some rare event -- in which case we know that even cell phone video will be bought.

With every camera -- one doesn't shoot in situations that provoke the "bad." Or, one adds light!

It's time to simply lump SSE in with all the other artifacts that occur from under-exposure. Just as we understand smear to be an artifact of point source over-exposure. (Something we also avoid if we want our video to look like film.)

BOTTOM LINE: the FX1/Z1 is about 2-stops less sensitive than the PD170/VX2100. The HD100 is about 2-stops less senstive than the FX1/Z1. We expect ANY progressive camcorder to be 1-stop less sensitive -- so the JVC may be about 1-stop less sensitive than we might have hoped.

We don't expect Sony to "fix" the FX1/Z1 to increase it's sensitivity.
Why would we expect JVC to" fix" the HD100 so that it's more sensitive?

If you want a high sensitivity video camera -- don't buy either a Sony or JVC HDV camcorder! Don't go HD -- stay in the DV world where you have 1 lux camcorders.

[Steve Connor]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

It was established 2 weeks ago that gain has almost nothing to do with SSE.

I didn't see this being established about two weeks ago.

I've now seen the camera, which I liked a lot, seen the SSE at 9db ( I live in PAL land where there seem to be more problems - JVC are swapping this unit out) and made the decision I won't even consider buying one until there is a clear statement from JVC about the issue. Something, for whatever reason, they have failed to do so far.

I like this camera, I don't have an agenda, I'm (still) a potential buyer of the camera.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

It's clear that "DV camcorders" have enabled lots of folks to make a living shooting video without actually learning the fundamentals of photpgraphy, film, and video technology. (The so-called "democritization" of video.)

Steve:

The SSE issue with the HD100 is a real factor for potential buyers. Not all of us, especially those of us shooting creative, narrative, documentary and pro often choose to shoot in less than ideal exposure conditions, often for creative and image effects.

"Correct exposure" is for engineers and technicians only - grain, noise, crushed blacks, blow-out highlights, smear, flare and various other artifacts are used to great creative effect. A camera is only a tool after all.

However, the SSE is not in a category of effect - it's unpredictable from unit to unit, firmware to firmware and unless you need a split exposure effect, not creatively useful.

SSE is a flaw, bottom line. Potential buyers can either live with it and deal with it via JVC or like me pass on the camera for now.

EDIT - I'm also unsubscribing from HD100 threads. Too much heat for just a pile of circuits (pun intended :) plus I'm going to pass on this cam for now.

[Robert Niemann]

Imagine a car, that has got a 5-speed, and after a lot of users have made crashes by using only the 3rd gear, the factory states, that the 3rd and 4th und 5th gear is for professionals only, otherwise You have to drive this car slowly only.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Clearly, there are no other choices -- as Canon's isn't 24p (and I wouldn't buy such an ergonomic kludge even if it did) and any P2-based camcorder will not be cost-effective until the end of the decade.

Steve, you just do not know, what we can expect from P2 during the next year, do You? And a FireStore solution for the HVX is already on the run. I am always interested in Your posts, if they are constructive, as they are for the most time.

[Chris Hurd]

Heads up, folks -- I have just deleted some personal attacks from several posts (leaving the technical discourse in place as much as possible). Just a reminder that flaming other members is never allowed at DV Info Net. If you want to harangue each other, you'll have to go elsewhere! Let's not get personal here please -- thanks in advance,

[Werner Wesp]

Originally Posted by Robert Niemann

Imagine a car, that has got a 5-speed, and after a lot of users have made crashes by using only the 3rd gear, the factory states, that the 3rd and 4th und 5th gear is for professionals only, otherwise You have to drive this car slowly only.

Over here in Europe 95% of all cars have manual gearboxes. No-one likes an automatic as it's less sporty, allows lower control, etc, etc....

Now, I've had a few cars already (crashed none of them, by the way), and NOT ONE car had a disclaimer in its manual that you HAVE to use the clutch to change gear...

I know you americans have the whole lawyer-culture, but do you think any user of a car that doesn't use the clutch (and his/her gearbox inevitably dies on him/her) stands a chance to have costs compensated? Or have a right to complain the car is of low quality?

... THAT seems a better analogy.

[Robert Niemann]

Most of the car accidents happen in low light situations, do they not?

[Werner Wesp]

Originally Posted by Robert Niemann

Most of the car accidents happen in low light situations, do they not?

:-)

that's a good one.

Question remains... you can't control the streets illumination, but you're the one to blame if you don't use your headlights.

Anyhow, I'm only trying to say I'm with steve on this. YOU DON'T HAVE TO break for corners, YOU DON'T HAVE TO have your oil and tyres checked, YOU DON'T HAVE TO stop for read lights, YOU DON'T HAVE TO whitebalance mannually, YOU DON'T HAVE TO go for the proper set-up, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ....

But if it goes (horrebly) wrong, who d'you have to blame?

(robert, this is by no means a personal attack to you... just so you know....)

[Guy Barwood]

"I know you assumed that the chip was full 1920 x 1080 - no such luck amigo"
Actually I know the CCD specs very well, which is why I detailed Sony having only 12% extra pixels, not over 100% extra (as 1920x1080 would have calculated)

"And the irony here is that Sony make the GY-HD100 CCD"
This is the first time anyone has indicated who actually makes the CCD. You know this for a fact or just guessing? I'm just curious thats all. I think it is not the CCD iteself that is the problem, it is potentially the circuits just after the CCD, so it could be the CCD itself is just fine.

"I think it's patently unfair to accuse them of being technically incompetent"
I didn't, but I did say they weren't up to this particular task. If being innovative produces cameras with faults like this then perhaps being Innovative isn't such a great thing, and perhaps Sony are onto something.

"to date there has been no official announcement from JVC on SSE"
This is a major concern to many in here, its like publically they completely deny the issue (but in private will discuss it),and that doesn't provide any confidence in them from an end users stand point. I guess it would be worse if they came out publically and denied any problems...

[Marty Baggen]

I'm thoroughly confused by the metaphorical soup, but I do know that reading Robert and Werner is a lot more FUN than most of the other posts on this thread!

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Werner Wesp

NOT ONE car had a disclaimer in its manual that you HAVE to use the clutch to change gear...

At the risk of bounding dangerously off-topic, just wanted to point out that you really don't have to use the clutch to change gears in a manual transmission. All you need is a working tachometer, and to know at which r.p.m. the shift points are.

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

At the risk of bounding dangerously off-topic,

Oh, I dunno man. I think I'd find that discussion more interesting than more talk about split-screen.

[Soroush Shahrokni]

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Oh, I dunno man. I think I'd find that discussion more interesting than more talk about split-screen.

Ditto. Everytime I refresh this site in hope of finding something intresting to read I find a new post in one of the SS topics. I have been shooting with this cam ever since it arrived a week ago and have only come across SS once and that was when I was shooting in 0 light and a M2 adapter. Im so sick of this SSE topics!

Personally I dont think any camera in the market can compare with the JVC...not even the new Canon. Perhaps the HVX will but that remains to be seen...I think JVC has done a tremendous job in its compression!

I have never owned a camera as good as this one and Im basicly sleeping with it. I dont regret for a second the choice that I made getting this camera!

Hopefully these SSE threads will be replaced with intresting ones á la Tim Dashwood!

[Marty Baggen]

Originally Posted by Soroush Shahrokni

I have never owned a camera as good as this one and Im basicly sleeping with it.

With all due respect to Tim Dashwood, I think you may be onto a much more interesting topic.... but I'm not sure I want to hear the details !