Solve this... a challange at DVinfo.net

Eric James · January 25th, 2006, 06:17 AM

Hey Guys,

I've run into a bit of a problem and it's need the creative ideas to solve.

Here's the problem:
I need to run component cable from the HD100 out to a G5 for uncompressed capture.

I ALSO need to hook up a composite cable to the steadicam video monitor.

Can you think of any way to do both?

So far:
I can't find a component to composite converter
I could go component to VGA then VGA to composite RCA
I could take video from the viewfinder jack but I can't find a diagram anywhere of what each of the 20 pins are.
I could run the component to the G5 through a multibridge extreme and have it do a realtime conversion to SD then run a composite cable back out to the camera.

None of these sound like great solutions to me, can you think of a better solution for my problem?

Thanks,
Eric James

http://www.expertmagic.com/

Charles Papert · January 25th, 2006, 07:50 AM

Since you don't HAVE to have color information on the Steadicam monitor, could you not split the signal from one of the component outs so that it feeds that monitor and also continues on to the G5 along with the other two? Probably best to do it with a little onboard DA rather than just a splitter cable. Don't know if this will cause a timing issue?

Marc Colemont · January 25th, 2006, 09:08 AM

This is what I found. First of all when you need to see both at the same time you'll need a component splitter.
Something like this:http://www.avdeals.ca/CELABS/400COMP.htm
To go back to your SteadyCam monitor you need:
- Component to HD-SDI (http://www.aja.com/hd10a.htm)
- and HD-SDI to composite convertor box (http://www.miranda.com/product.php?i=266&l=1).

Looks like an expensive solution...

Keith Wakeham · January 25th, 2006, 10:00 AM

The simplest way I can figure out is this.

Assuming your G5 has component input run you hd-100 directly to that, and pull a little scam by getting one of those firewire analog video converters, they are anywhere from 100-300 dollars I think, then just use the firewire output on the camera set to dv mode so it downconverts the hdv on the fly (Think this works, could be wrong, manual just says set this switch according to the format) and hook it up to something like the canopus ADVC110 and that will give you an analog out for you monitor.

I think decklink multibridge downconverts too, so that might be an all in one option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

This is what I found. First of all when you need to see both at the same time you'll need a component splitter.

Marc's method could work but he introduced some unnecessay losses. If you G5 can capture HD uncompressed component it definetly has HD-SDI, in HD never seen component without Hd-SDI. So you don't need a component spliter. Run you component out into the HD10A. This serves two purposes, it acts as a splitter and you ADC with much less losses vs long component cable runs. Run an BNC from the HD10A to you edit system which you now can be up to 300 ft away without any signal loss, and then use the HD10MD3 http://www.aja.com/hd10md.htm to downconvert the hd-sdi to both sdi and composite or component (or svideo with a two bnc Y/C to svideo cable).

Miranda could work but it is likely more expensive than the HD10MD3 I would suspect. DV to analog option is cheaper by a long shot

Tim Dashwood · January 25th, 2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Wakeham

just use the firewire output on the camera set to dv mode so it downconverts the hdv on the fly (Think this works, could be wrong, manual just says set this switch according to the format)

Keith, the HDV to DV downconvert won't work because the HD100 doesn't function that way.

The main question for Eric is this: Is the Stedicam monitor HD or NTSC/PAL? If it is not HD, then you will require some external downconverting because the HD100 can only output either HD component or NTSC/PAL composite, not a combination of both. If you have Multibride Extreme, then you can very easily loop a downconverted composite out since it will automatically do the NTSC downconvert for you. The multibridge extreme is "format agnostic" and will convert anything to anything.

If the Stedicam LCD is HD, then the easy method is to just split the Y to it with a simple BNC T splitter. This shouldn't cause any sync or timing problems with the decklink G5 capture and you should be using monochrome only on Stedicam anyway.

Now here's another question: Have you discussed the issue with your Stedicam operator? Personally, I would never tether myself to anything when operating a stedicam. It is impossible to balance.
Maybe you should consider running tape-only for your stedicam shots and then capture it via the decklink later.

Keith Wakeham · January 25th, 2006, 01:23 PM

Tim, your right, on your mentioning I looked deeper into the manual and found it has to be set to the recording format and is only of any use what so ever in playback. Slightly deceptive to say the least. I guess it can't handle encoding hdv, and then decoding and encoding to another format but I assumed the DV codec would have likely been a seperate IC and thus it could have done it but I was wrong, sorry.

Eric James · January 25th, 2006, 03:38 PM

Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the great ideas.

So far I'm liking the HD10A to HD-SDI then HD10MD3 back to Composite. Although it is getting pretty expensive.

Charles,
The monitor just flickers when I attach one of the component signals because it is HD going to an SD monitor. The Rig is a brand new Steadicam Flyer with the 7" NTSC LCD.

What are your thoughts on the tethering issue?
So far I have done some testing. I have a big loop that goes over the camera before heading down the arm. The cord is attached just before each hinge point with plenty of slack between each. The cord then runs up the vest and is securely attached before heading out the back of the vest at the bottom.

I'm brand new to steadicam work but this seams to work pretty well. The cord only effects the set-up if I pan beyond say 40* each way. Also from watching the footage this doesn't really seem to effect the steadiness of the shot at all.

Any thoughts on this?

My new idea:
Make a small mounting bracket above the camera's flip out LCD and attach a small lipstick camera to "film" the screen. Then run the composite right to the video jack on the steadicam. This wouldn't be as high of quality but I imagine it would be plenty good enough to frame the shot.

This would be great because then I could use just the HD10A and run just one small wire back to the G5.

More on tethering:
My reasons for tethering are that we will be capturing everything from the entire film uncompressed. Also we will have a remote focus set-up and I've always though it would be much nicer to have the focus puller in one spot with a nice clear monitor than running around with the steadicam trying to see the shot. I for one would rather have to deal with flying the rig tethered than to have a person running around behind me trying to stay out of the way and do his job at the same time. Seems to me it would get crowded fast.

Thanks,
Eric James

Edwin Huang · January 25th, 2006, 04:18 PM

My junkyard fix would be to buy a consumer home theatre system, have the component out of the JVC to the home theatre system, have the home theatre system pass the component out to your card and a composite back to your monitor. It'll probably cost you less than $200.

I think a DVHS deck might work too and then you can have a DVHS backup. Though i don't know if the signal is passthrough or compressed.

Steve Mullen · January 25th, 2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwin Huang

I think a DVHS deck might work too and then you can have a DVHS backup. Though i don't know if the signal is passthrough or compressed.

A D-VHS deck will indeed input HD via iLink and downconvert to NTSC and output Composite and S-video. But, I've never tried this while shooting and while cheap, it is a big box.

Which makes me think of the tiny JVC deck which I suspect will do the same thing. Anyone got one to try?

It would also provide a monitor for the DR or director.

Greg Corke · January 26th, 2006, 12:57 PM

Hi Eric,
I also have the new flyer rig. When in hdv mode I connect the video cable to Y/video don't seem to get flicker and image is fine. This is not displaying hd but it is displaying something workable. I may have the wrong end of the stick but am I right in thinking you can get a signal to your sd monitor when in hdv mode?

Regards Greg C

Eric James · January 26th, 2006, 02:01 PM

Hey Greg,
That works fine for me as well. The problem is that I'm also trying to get the component HD signal out to be captured. Read the whole first post and you'll see what I'm taking about.

Thanks,
Eric James

John Mitchell · January 26th, 2006, 11:08 PM

Just wondering if there is a way of splitting off the viewfinder feed? You'd have to contact JVC to find out.

Steve Mullen · January 27th, 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Just wondering if there is a way of splitting off the viewfinder feed? You'd have to contact JVC to find out.

The problem is the camcorder can't output SD and HD at the same time.

John Mitchell · January 27th, 2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

The problem is the camcorder can't output SD and HD at the same time.

I don't think the viewfinder is high enough res to display HD - it must be downconverted somewhere.

Greg Corke · January 27th, 2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

I don't think the viewfinder is high enough res to display HD - it must be downconverted somewhere.

Hi John,

yeh I think your right. I was lookin at my rig and camera today. Like you said if Eric takes component from the RGB i'm almost positive he would still be able to take a composite feed from the viewfinder connection. Funny thing is I was trying to do the oppposite today i.e. put my steadicam lcd on my camera so I don't see why that can't work the other way. Any thoughts anyone?

Greg

January 25th, 2006, 06:17 AM	#1
Eric James Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 126	Solve this... a challange Hey Guys, I've run into a bit of a problem and it's need the creative ideas to solve. Here's the problem: I need to run component cable from the HD100 out to a G5 for uncompressed capture. I ALSO need to hook up a composite cable to the steadicam video monitor. Can you think of any way to do both? So far: I can't find a component to composite converter I could go component to VGA then VGA to composite RCA I could take video from the viewfinder jack but I can't find a diagram anywhere of what each of the 20 pins are. I could run the component to the G5 through a multibridge extreme and have it do a realtime conversion to SD then run a composite cable back out to the camera. None of these sound like great solutions to me, can you think of a better solution for my problem? Thanks, Eric James http://www.expertmagic.com/

January 25th, 2006, 07:50 AM	#2
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Since you don't HAVE to have color information on the Steadicam monitor, could you not split the signal from one of the component outs so that it feeds that monitor and also continues on to the G5 along with the other two? Probably best to do it with a little onboard DA rather than just a splitter cable. Don't know if this will cause a timing issue? __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

January 25th, 2006, 01:23 PM	#6
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	Tim, your right, on your mentioning I looked deeper into the manual and found it has to be set to the recording format and is only of any use what so ever in playback. Slightly deceptive to say the least. I guess it can't handle encoding hdv, and then decoding and encoding to another format but I assumed the DV codec would have likely been a seperate IC and thus it could have done it but I was wrong, sorry. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

January 25th, 2006, 04:18 PM	#8
Edwin Huang Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 43	Junkyard fix. My junkyard fix would be to buy a consumer home theatre system, have the component out of the JVC to the home theatre system, have the home theatre system pass the component out to your card and a composite back to your monitor. It'll probably cost you less than $200. I think a DVHS deck might work too and then you can have a DVHS backup. Though i don't know if the signal is passthrough or compressed.

January 26th, 2006, 12:57 PM	#10
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	No flicker Hi Eric, I also have the new flyer rig. When in hdv mode I connect the video cable to Y/video don't seem to get flicker and image is fine. This is not displaying hd but it is displaying something workable. I may have the wrong end of the stick but am I right in thinking you can get a signal to your sd monitor when in hdv mode? Regards Greg C

January 25th, 2006, 09:08 AM	#3
Marc Colemont Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 695	This is what I found. First of all when you need to see both at the same time you'll need a component splitter. Something like this:http://www.avdeals.ca/CELABS/400COMP.htm To go back to your SteadyCam monitor you need: - Component to HD-SDI (http://www.aja.com/hd10a.htm) - and HD-SDI to composite convertor box (http://www.miranda.com/product.php?i=266&l=1). Looks like an expensive solution...

January 25th, 2006, 03:38 PM	#7
Eric James Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 126	Hey Guys, Thanks for all the great ideas. So far I'm liking the HD10A to HD-SDI then HD10MD3 back to Composite. Although it is getting pretty expensive. Charles, The monitor just flickers when I attach one of the component signals because it is HD going to an SD monitor. The Rig is a brand new Steadicam Flyer with the 7" NTSC LCD. What are your thoughts on the tethering issue? So far I have done some testing. I have a big loop that goes over the camera before heading down the arm. The cord is attached just before each hinge point with plenty of slack between each. The cord then runs up the vest and is securely attached before heading out the back of the vest at the bottom. I'm brand new to steadicam work but this seams to work pretty well. The cord only effects the set-up if I pan beyond say 40* each way. Also from watching the footage this doesn't really seem to effect the steadiness of the shot at all. Any thoughts on this? My new idea: Make a small mounting bracket above the camera's flip out LCD and attach a small lipstick camera to "film" the screen. Then run the composite right to the video jack on the steadicam. This wouldn't be as high of quality but I imagine it would be plenty good enough to frame the shot. This would be great because then I could use just the HD10A and run just one small wire back to the G5. More on tethering: My reasons for tethering are that we will be capturing everything from the entire film uncompressed. Also we will have a remote focus set-up and I've always though it would be much nicer to have the focus puller in one spot with a nice clear monitor than running around with the steadicam trying to see the shot. I for one would rather have to deal with flying the rig tethered than to have a person running around behind me trying to stay out of the way and do his job at the same time. Seems to me it would get crowded fast. Thanks, Eric James

January 26th, 2006, 02:01 PM	#11
Eric James Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 126	Hey Greg, That works fine for me as well. The problem is that I'm also trying to get the component HD signal out to be captured. Read the whole first post and you'll see what I'm taking about. Thanks, Eric James

January 26th, 2006, 11:08 PM	#12
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Just wondering if there is a way of splitting off the viewfinder feed? You'd have to contact JVC to find out.