Decision making
 

I am shying off away from the HD100 at the mo as the fact that it can not cope with fast moving images well, and the fact that the batteries are rubbish, so would have to spend at least another £300 on battery back ups....

I am now looking towards the Sony Z1, but the thing that is putting me off with camera is the fact that it is not shoulder mounted!!!

I have read and read articles about both of the cameras, but can anyone give me an honest opinion and can say if the picture quality of both cameras are near the same or not..,..I know it depends on the subject, lighting etc, but just in general....

I produce all sorts of videos from promotional, showreels, motorsport, drama, web, so it is hard trying to choose between the cameras!!!!!

Even tho the HD100 is more expensive, I still love the look of it!!

Can anyone help me with a couple pros and cons?? Also the terms progressive and interlaced still bother me, can anyone spell it out for me>????? hehe

Thanks for your time.
A

Anthony, I'm having exactly the same problem choosing between the HD100 and the Z1 at the moment and it's a nightmare!

HD100:
Pro's - Great ergonomics, Progressive, Focus assist.
Con's - Battery, Not very wide stock lens

Z1
Pro's - Battery life, wide lens, more portable
Cons - Horrible ergonomics

I shoot a lot of documentary work with lots of handheld, often working on my own. Having a decent wide angle is imporatant as I often have to shoot in enclosed spaces, but I can't afford the 13x3.5 for the JVC. My heart is saying the HD100, but I think that with the IDX batteries and a wide adaptor on the front, the kit is going to get just too unmanageable to work fast on my own. But every time I pick up the Z1 I find it incredibly uncomfortable to hold...

Any advice people?

...
 

Hello Mike,

thanks for that.

What you have just said has summed it up for me too.

I don't like the feel of the Z1 compared with the HD100.

the hd100 seems to be going for more the expensive route tho, I also need a good wide angle lens, as on xl2 i found the stock lens not to be wide at all, and it made shooting more difficult.

I prefer the look and set out of the HD100 more aswell, and I also believe the Z1 feels cheapish and not pro kind of thing!!!

If the quality is near the same, the Z1 may be the better short time option.........Oh i dont know lol hehe

Antony and Mike,

Same here. After extensive research (for months) on this and other forums, the 2 choices I have left now are the same camera's you're speaking of.
One decision-making factor for me is the fact that I'm planning to buy it in New York next june (I'm living in the Netherlands).
The HD100 sells about $2.000,= cheaper there and the Z1 about $1.500,=.

Now my problem: would the HD100 get me through customs easy? I don't know, it's a big camera compared to the Z1, more pro-looking, etc. And I don't think it will fit in my Kata MC-61, a bag I'm able to take with me on the plane.

Anyway, next week I'm testing both camera's here in The Netherlands. Hopefully my fears about the HD100 will disappear.

Regards,

Sjoerd Banga

From my playing with the HD 100 the camera is front heavy, so the weight of the IDX batteries will help balance it out. It's the balance that's important rather than the how much a camera weighs.

One man news crews work all day with the Betacam cameras, which are usually pretty well balanced. The HD 100 is extremely light and a lot smaller compared to the Betacam kits and should be better balanced than the Z1, especially when you have a decent shotgun mic fitted to the front of the camera. So you shouldn't have any problem working on your own.

How much you can pay for a camera is between you, the bank manager and your business plan.

There's no question that the HD100 is better balanced with the IDX kit, but the difference is that with the HD100 you have to lug around 2 or 3 large heavy batteries, but the Z1 you can take a couple of small ones which will fit in your pocket.

You could simply break the camera down and then it is much more manageable. The body and lens comes with protective caps so that you can protect them when they are not mated. It should work for you...

No doubt that you would need a battery solution if you choose the HD-100. I noticed they are running a 1/2 price offer on the IDX in EU during March Click Here for details. Plus, weren't the EU dealers offering free Canopus Edius with the purchase of the camera or is that promotion over?

Fast motion should not be a problem for you. There are many ways to handle fast motion with the HD-100 that give good results (like motion smooting or 480p60 mode or camera skill learning pan speed thresholds).

Antony, Even with the Z1 you need more then one battery for a day job.
So the batteries was not a deciding factor for me personal.
I found the fact that the HD100 could attach professional batteries better.
The shoulder mount was definatly a deciding factor yes.
Progressive and interleased is just different. It takes effort to get used to. For fast run and shoot stuff, I turn on the Motion Smoothing. It comes very close to interleased.
I would say rent both camera's and try it out.

The IDX batteries aren't that big, they'll fit in a pocket - the old PAG Ni Cad batteries are much larger. However, a small backpack is usually the best way to take your accessories if your shooting on your own. The tripod will be a much bigger consideration, because the best ones tend not to be light if you're worried about the weight of the batteries. IDX claim that their battery will last 4 hours, so you shouldn't need to carry that many on your person.

It's best try out the cameras, a couple of hours shooting something will quickly point you towards the one that works best for you.

I've always been a fan of Sony, but the Z1 and HD100 are really two different cameras.

I was surpised that your list of features did not include 24P.

The Sony is 1080i, and the JVC is 720P. The Sony does not offer a true 24 frame progessive image.

You need to find someone that has these cameras and check them out for yourself.

Mike,

Ever thought of the batteries DSM (a UK-company) are making for the HD100??

They are mentioned in the JVC-document "highway0106.pdf". If I choose to go for this camera I am also gettin myself these batteries. They carry a 7.4V output socket for which they are making a 12V DC up-converter. Can be welcome for on-camera lights or the DR-HD100. The batteries can be charged with the standard JVC charger.

Here is an extract from the mentioned PDF:

"Those users who always or occasionally do not want to add any extra weight or extra length to the GY-HD100 camcorder will welcome this new lithium-ion power source from UK battery manufacturer, DSM Video Limited.
The battery itself operates like a JVC battery and yet has a power rating of 7.2 Ah (or 52 Wh) and is hardly bigger than JVC’s own 3.8 Ah battery, BN-V438. It is reliable and costeffective too, with its Panasonic cells delivering an estimated 3 hours running time in record mode, whilst having a similar price to the BN-V428 and BN-V438. This T-shaped battery, weighing only 325g and protruding by just 25mm beyond the rear of camera, is ideal
when the camera is being used in a confined space or in handheld style.
However the DSM-J7274 battery has much more to offer than simply power for the camcorder. It has a 7.4V DC output socket, for which DSM have designed a minute voltage up-converter, UU74-12 delivering 12V DC.
This enable lights and, perhaps more importantly, JVC’s hard disk recorder,
DR-HD100, to be run off the same battery.
DSM has also designed two special brackets to hold the DR-HD100. Choose between top or side mounting style. Using the DR-HD100 and DSM’s LED light, it is calculated that a run-time of at least one hour’s recording is achievable.
A DSM fast 2A charger, model CJ2, is available as an optional extra, in case of not wanting to use the slower 1A charger that comes in the GY-HD100 / 101 package.
The CJ2 is a twin, simultaneous, fully automatic fast charger which safely charges one or two batteries to 90% in 3.5 hours, before the lifeenhancing cell-balancing function cuts in and takes a further 2.5 hours to reach 100%
The DSM-J7274 battery and its JVC accessories will be available well before 2006."

Regards,

Sjoerd Banga

Thanks for that Sjoerd - the DSM batteries look like a good backup option. Their website says they should be available soon: http://www.dsmpower.tv/index.htm

That's one worry solved, but the wide lens is a bit more intractable. I'm trying the camera with the Fujinon wide adaptor next week and I'm really hoping it feels wide enough.

Steven - I've never really understood the big deal with 24P. Surely the fact that the camera is progressive is the important thing? I can understand there being a noticeable difference if you are used to video at 30fps, but the difference between 24fps and 25fps is surely not worth the all the hooha for PAL people. I don't want to open up the 24P can of worms debate, just the effect it produces is not important for what I do.

.........
 

Now Im thinking more about the HD100 now..... oh i dunno!

I was worried about the strobing effect and the battery, ok I can get the batteries for maybe £300, but the panning and fast motion work??????

If you're worried about 24P, shoot 30P for less judder.

Do understand that this is the nature of 24P, just like film.
You have to be aware of how to minimize the effect. Just watch movies
to get a feel on how they compose their shots when there's motion.
Fast camera pans are out unless you're looking for that effect.

Not the effect
 

Hello, thanks for your comment :)

Its not the effect Im after, what I am really asking is can I capture subjects, like sports, football, motor racing etc, WITHOUT juddering!!!!!!??????

standard DV 576/50i mode
 

Would the standard DV 576/50i mode cope with this?

Sorry I am a little confused!! hence the questions!!!!!

thanks for your inut so far ppl!

The reverse is true! The 1080i codec cannot cope with fast moving images. It, like all 20-25Mbps 1080i, has MPEG-2 motion blocks on complex images. The 720p codec does not.

Perhaps you are saying that you don't like the way 24fps (film) handles motion. What you call judder. You may prefer a 60Hz temporal resolution. That's a valid view -- but you do need to know that the ability of film to handle motion is dependent on the shooter's ability to shoot film. There's nothing wrong with the HD100.

Now if you don't want to shoot using film rules, then you simply switch on the Smooth Motion filter. Now the CCDs are shooting at 60Hz. And, you no longer are shooting at 24fps.

I think folks are telling you the cost of batteries should NOT be the deciding issue in purchasing an HD camcorder.

Thank you that was what I wanted to know.

Yes I understand what ppl are saying and it is true....but I am just trying to decide on a range of different factors....and batteries....equals extra expensive equals....more thinking, if you understand what I mean.

Yes I do like using 24f mode etc, but all I was asking was if the HD100 can handle standard filming subjects, like ppl running, cars moving etc, in SD mode.....but as you say I would need to change to motion smoothing mode etc to gain this way of shooting...is that correct?

Film cameras shoot these subjects all the time.

I assume, since you're mentioning prices in pounds, you're in the UK. This would mean that you'd be shooting 25p rather than 24p, so you wouldn't have the pull down effect that you get in the USA when they transmit anything shot at 24 fps on TV.

However, if you want to have the look of live TV broadcasts at sporting events you would need to shoot interlace rather than progressive.

Why not ask your local dealer if you can test the camera.

?
 

Not even in SD mode?

The HD100 supports shooting in two modes, HD and SD.

In HD, you cannot get the judder-free look of 60p or 60i, it just doesn't record those formats.

In SD, you can get super-smooth judder-free footage at either 480/60p or 576/50p, you can also get smooth judder-free footage in DV mode at 60i (or 50i, depending on if you have an American or European HD100).

So -- if you want the filmlike look, the HD100 can deliver that in HD or SD. If you want the "looking through a window" look, it can only deliver that look in SD.

HD100 - sports/action
 

Antony

if you are interested to see some sports footage with the HD100
go to www.vidprostudios.com

most of the footage there was taken awhile ago when I first started shooting with my HD100 ... yet I think it will provide you a good idea of the HD100 look for shooting action
The BMX footage in both 30p and 24p, although not 60i, is still quite smooth
and watchable to my eye

cheers
Pete

If you REALLY want progressive and 60Hz capture -- you've got a third option which is the HVX200. It is the ONLY 720p60 camcorder you can find for under $10K. It is PERFECT for fast action.

However, it is not yet available in the PAL version. And, if you don't like the handheld Z1 you may not like the HVX -- although Pana usually nails the ergonmics better than Sony.

Unfortunately, if price is an issue -- P2 likely won't work for you.

A thought about batteries. I probably wouldn't spring for IDX either. How much would a half dozen JVC batteries ordered from B&H cost?

The man could probably solicit here to get some free batteries. I have a couple sitting here staring at me right now. His problem will be charging them. They take a long time to charge.

The number of batteries required depends on how much heavy duty filming you're doing.

Given that the JVC batteries only last 20 mins, you couldn't really use them on the 8 to 12 hour shooting days that are common in the industry. You also have to allow for not being close to power supplies during the day, so you'd need at least two IDX type batteries as part of the kit, ideally three, plus a fast charger (or an overnight charger than can handle all your batteries).

Of course all this depends on what you're buying the camera for, but if it's being used professionally you can't be in position that you've run out of batteries. Changing the JVC batteries so often will also mean that you increase the chance of it dying just at the moment you need to get the shot.

Switching the camera off to save the battery is no excuse if you miss the shot you've been waiting for.

Buying a professional battery solution for the HD100 should be considered a necessary expense associated with the camera. Remember that professional camcorders traditionally do not come with batteries; they'll include an AC power adapter in the kit but it's not at all uncommon for the batteries to be a separate purchase item. Look at it this way, whether you choose IDX, Aspen or A/B, those batteries and charger are things you can move from one camera to another. When the time comes to sell your current cam, you'll keep those batts to use with your next pro video camera.

I've always thought of that little 40-minute battery included with the HD100 as an emergency batt, or as something to get you up and shooting right out of the box, like those low-capacity flash cards included with a digital still camera.

In fact, most professional cameras don't include ANY power, no lens and no cover or bag, they usually only come with a tripod adaptor. Some cameras don't even have VF. The reason is obvious; the cameraman/owner can decide what lens, batteries, cases THEY need/like. And as Chris said, most of those accessories stay with you and simply move to the next camera.

Has anyone come up with a solution to this? it IS a shortcoming afterall...
Is there a way to get a video like image in the hd100 in hd?

(There was a funny thread in some ENG forum with all these newsguys bitching that they couldn't get rid of the HVX200's filmlike appearance.)

Yes,
The BR50 deck will transcode tape content to 1080i or you can easily do it on any capable NLE's timeline. Interlacing from a progressive source is relatively easy and the results are almost always excellent. Making progressive from interlace, on the other hand, is quite time consuming and the results never seem to be as good.

That'll change the signal that the footage is carried within, but it won't change the look of the footage. It still won't have that "looking through a window" look.

The only way to get that look on the HD100 is to somehow record the analog component outputs. The live video output on the analog outputs is 60p. The HDV recording deck cannot record 60fps acquisition, it is limited to 30p.

So Barry are you saying that the motion smoothing filter doesn't work? BTW in answer to several questions in earlier threads Motion smoothing is intended for HD not 480i60 or 576i50. If we are comparing to the Z1U I think I'd prefer JVC's motion smoothing over Sony's fake progressive mode every time :)

And strictly speaking the 576P50 and 480P60 modes are HDV, not SD.

At the moment recording the analogue outputs is an expensive and studio bound exercise - you really wouldn't contemplate it on location.

As far as sports shooting goes you forgot to mention what is actually a distinct advantage of the JVC - a 20x lens that will get you closer to the action. Plus lets not forget that the lens is interchangeable (not that there are many options yet, but just wait - they're coming).

The manufacturers are going for different niches in the market place. The HVX200 is intended to build on the DVX 100 which is progressive and a camera that the indie sector took to its heart.

ENG has traditionally been interlace, so perhaps they should've gone for the Sony Z1 rather than the HVX200, however, they might've gone (or their company) for the Panasonic because of the workflow.

Progressive isn't a short coming as such, but doing both progressive and interlace HD on the 1/3" cameras would put the cost up in a price driven market sector.

Depends on what you mean by "work". If you're asking if it simulates the "looking through a window" effect of 60i or 60p, then no it doesn't do that, nor is it intended to.

They are HDV modes in that they're recorded using the HDV recording format, but they're not high-def resolution (they use the same frame dimensions as SD, but are recorded using HDV compression.) So they're not high-def; actually they'd qualify as EDTV (if you go by the ATSC chart); 480/60P accounts for three of the EDTV modes listed.

Right, in the stricktest sense the transcode of the 720p footage to 1080i changes the signal but not the way it looks to begin with. I have tried mixing 1080i (Z1 and XL-H1) with transcoded 720p and making them match in interlace is a challenge.

I guess I only meant does it work to the extent that helps smooth motion (ie fast action in the progressive modes, which is what our sports shooter was after). I really don't understand the "looking through a window" analogy, I really think the correct analogy is "more lifelike motion". Obviously the motion smoothing can't hope to simulate 60i in 24P but it does a better job than the Sony in reverse (even the Sony shooters avoid that Cine mode or whatever it is). 60P is clearly better again as it preserves resolution and motion.

Barry I learn something every day off you (well every day I read one of your posts that is). Just to clarify what I was saying (which was admittedly just semantics) while I understood they were not true HD resolutions, even JVC refers to them as HDV. I guess being progressive they also have the advantage of scaling much better than SD to HD. Hence EDTV. I like it - it's accurate.

Hi there, me again.

Well, this week i did a side-by-side test between the Sony Z1, Canon Xl2 and Canon XL-H1 (could not resist that one). I did not make extensive image-quality tests (seen enough of those), but tried them for ergonomics.

For me, the Sony Z1 is off my list now. Maybe it's because I have been a canon owner until now, but the handling of the Canon's fit me better. The main reason: they rest on my shoulder and I can get a real "grip" on both of the Canon's.

Because SD quality is still important for me I did some quick shoots in that format. If I would not take the jump to HD, the XL2 would be my choice.
In HD though I was flabbergasted by the pictures of the H1 (but that one is out of my budget).

So, next week It's time for the HD100E (hopefully the DSM-batteries are in stock over there) and on the 28th of april were leaving for New York to take a visit at BH. Only NAB and/or a disappointment next week can take me away from the HD100.

I will surely let you know about the DSM-batteries!

Regards,

Sjoerd Banga
The Netherlands

I would take a trip to Abel Cine in NYC instead of B&H. They will match the prices of B&H and you will actually get someone who will talk to you and show you the cameras.

I have been in B&H several times and it was always impossible to get anyone to talk to you.

check out www.abelcine.com

Dan Weber

Dan,

Thanks! I will check their site.
The main reason for me to go to BH is because they are selling PAL-camera's. If you know other shops that sell PAL-camera's for good prices I would be very glad to get their addresses.
Our trip wil be a few day in NYC then by air to Memphis and by car back to NYC. The biggest towns we pass will be Memphis, Nashville and the NY area.

Regards,

Sjoerd Banga

I think that Abel Cine can sell PAL models. give them a call or send them an email.

Dan Weber