Decision making at DVinfo.net

Antony Quintin · March 24th, 2006, 03:45 AM

I am shying off away from the HD100 at the mo as the fact that it can not cope with fast moving images well, and the fact that the batteries are rubbish, so would have to spend at least another £300 on battery back ups....

I am now looking towards the Sony Z1, but the thing that is putting me off with camera is the fact that it is not shoulder mounted!!!

I have read and read articles about both of the cameras, but can anyone give me an honest opinion and can say if the picture quality of both cameras are near the same or not..,..I know it depends on the subject, lighting etc, but just in general....

I produce all sorts of videos from promotional, showreels, motorsport, drama, web, so it is hard trying to choose between the cameras!!!!!

Even tho the HD100 is more expensive, I still love the look of it!!

Can anyone help me with a couple pros and cons?? Also the terms progressive and interlaced still bother me, can anyone spell it out for me>????? hehe

Thanks for your time.
A

Mike Paterson · March 24th, 2006, 04:13 AM

Anthony, I'm having exactly the same problem choosing between the HD100 and the Z1 at the moment and it's a nightmare!

HD100:
Pro's - Great ergonomics, Progressive, Focus assist.
Con's - Battery, Not very wide stock lens

Z1
Pro's - Battery life, wide lens, more portable
Cons - Horrible ergonomics

I shoot a lot of documentary work with lots of handheld, often working on my own. Having a decent wide angle is imporatant as I often have to shoot in enclosed spaces, but I can't afford the 13x3.5 for the JVC. My heart is saying the HD100, but I think that with the IDX batteries and a wide adaptor on the front, the kit is going to get just too unmanageable to work fast on my own. But every time I pick up the Z1 I find it incredibly uncomfortable to hold...

Any advice people?

Antony Quintin · March 24th, 2006, 04:30 AM

Hello Mike,

thanks for that.

What you have just said has summed it up for me too.

I don't like the feel of the Z1 compared with the HD100.

the hd100 seems to be going for more the expensive route tho, I also need a good wide angle lens, as on xl2 i found the stock lens not to be wide at all, and it made shooting more difficult.

I prefer the look and set out of the HD100 more aswell, and I also believe the Z1 feels cheapish and not pro kind of thing!!!

If the quality is near the same, the Z1 may be the better short time option.........Oh i dont know lol hehe

Sjoerd Banga · March 24th, 2006, 04:38 AM

Antony and Mike,

Same here. After extensive research (for months) on this and other forums, the 2 choices I have left now are the same camera's you're speaking of.
One decision-making factor for me is the fact that I'm planning to buy it in New York next june (I'm living in the Netherlands).
The HD100 sells about $2.000,= cheaper there and the Z1 about $1.500,=.

Now my problem: would the HD100 get me through customs easy? I don't know, it's a big camera compared to the Z1, more pro-looking, etc. And I don't think it will fit in my Kata MC-61, a bag I'm able to take with me on the plane.

Anyway, next week I'm testing both camera's here in The Netherlands. Hopefully my fears about the HD100 will disappear.

Regards,

Sjoerd Banga

Brian Drysdale · March 24th, 2006, 04:46 AM

From my playing with the HD 100 the camera is front heavy, so the weight of the IDX batteries will help balance it out. It's the balance that's important rather than the how much a camera weighs.

One man news crews work all day with the Betacam cameras, which are usually pretty well balanced. The HD 100 is extremely light and a lot smaller compared to the Betacam kits and should be better balanced than the Z1, especially when you have a decent shotgun mic fitted to the front of the camera. So you shouldn't have any problem working on your own.

How much you can pay for a camera is between you, the bank manager and your business plan.

Mike Paterson · March 24th, 2006, 05:40 AM

There's no question that the HD100 is better balanced with the IDX kit, but the difference is that with the HD100 you have to lug around 2 or 3 large heavy batteries, but the Z1 you can take a couple of small ones which will fit in your pocket.

Stephen L. Noe · March 24th, 2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjoerd Banga

Now my problem: would the HD100 get me through customs easy? I don't know, it's a big camera compared to the Z1, more pro-looking, etc. And I don't think it will fit in my Kata MC-61, a bag I'm able to take with me on the plane.
Sjoerd Banga

You could simply break the camera down and then it is much more manageable. The body and lens comes with protective caps so that you can protect them when they are not mated. It should work for you...

Stephen L. Noe · March 24th, 2006, 06:09 AM

No doubt that you would need a battery solution if you choose the HD-100. I noticed they are running a 1/2 price offer on the IDX in EU during March Click Here for details. Plus, weren't the EU dealers offering free Canopus Edius with the purchase of the camera or is that promotion over?

Fast motion should not be a problem for you. There are many ways to handle fast motion with the HD-100 that give good results (like motion smooting or 480p60 mode or camera skill learning pan speed thresholds).

Marc Colemont · March 24th, 2006, 06:46 AM

Antony, Even with the Z1 you need more then one battery for a day job.
So the batteries was not a deciding factor for me personal.
I found the fact that the HD100 could attach professional batteries better.
The shoulder mount was definatly a deciding factor yes.
Progressive and interleased is just different. It takes effort to get used to. For fast run and shoot stuff, I turn on the Motion Smoothing. It comes very close to interleased.
I would say rent both camera's and try it out.

Brian Drysdale · March 24th, 2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Paterson

There's no question that the HD100 is better balanced with the IDX kit, but the difference is that with the HD100 you have to lug around 2 or 3 large heavy batteries, but the Z1 you can take a couple of small ones which will fit in your pocket.

The IDX batteries aren't that big, they'll fit in a pocket - the old PAG Ni Cad batteries are much larger. However, a small backpack is usually the best way to take your accessories if your shooting on your own. The tripod will be a much bigger consideration, because the best ones tend not to be light if you're worried about the weight of the batteries. IDX claim that their battery will last 4 hours, so you shouldn't need to carry that many on your person.

It's best try out the cameras, a couple of hours shooting something will quickly point you towards the one that works best for you.

Steven Thomas · March 24th, 2006, 07:49 AM

I've always been a fan of Sony, but the Z1 and HD100 are really two different cameras.

I was surpised that your list of features did not include 24P.

The Sony is 1080i, and the JVC is 720P. The Sony does not offer a true 24 frame progessive image.

You need to find someone that has these cameras and check them out for yourself.

Sjoerd Banga · March 24th, 2006, 08:34 AM

Mike,

Ever thought of the batteries DSM (a UK-company) are making for the HD100??

They are mentioned in the JVC-document "highway0106.pdf". If I choose to go for this camera I am also gettin myself these batteries. They carry a 7.4V output socket for which they are making a 12V DC up-converter. Can be welcome for on-camera lights or the DR-HD100. The batteries can be charged with the standard JVC charger.

Here is an extract from the mentioned PDF:

"Those users who always or occasionally do not want to add any extra weight or extra length to the GY-HD100 camcorder will welcome this new lithium-ion power source from UK battery manufacturer, DSM Video Limited.
The battery itself operates like a JVC battery and yet has a power rating of 7.2 Ah (or 52 Wh) and is hardly bigger than JVC’s own 3.8 Ah battery, BN-V438. It is reliable and costeffective too, with its Panasonic cells delivering an estimated 3 hours running time in record mode, whilst having a similar price to the BN-V428 and BN-V438. This T-shaped battery, weighing only 325g and protruding by just 25mm beyond the rear of camera, is ideal
when the camera is being used in a confined space or in handheld style.
However the DSM-J7274 battery has much more to offer than simply power for the camcorder. It has a 7.4V DC output socket, for which DSM have designed a minute voltage up-converter, UU74-12 delivering 12V DC.
This enable lights and, perhaps more importantly, JVC’s hard disk recorder,
DR-HD100, to be run off the same battery.
DSM has also designed two special brackets to hold the DR-HD100. Choose between top or side mounting style. Using the DR-HD100 and DSM’s LED light, it is calculated that a run-time of at least one hour’s recording is achievable.
A DSM fast 2A charger, model CJ2, is available as an optional extra, in case of not wanting to use the slower 1A charger that comes in the GY-HD100 / 101 package.
The CJ2 is a twin, simultaneous, fully automatic fast charger which safely charges one or two batteries to 90% in 3.5 hours, before the lifeenhancing cell-balancing function cuts in and takes a further 2.5 hours to reach 100%
The DSM-J7274 battery and its JVC accessories will be available well before 2006."

Regards,

Sjoerd Banga

Mike Paterson · March 24th, 2006, 11:22 AM

Thanks for that Sjoerd - the DSM batteries look like a good backup option. Their website says they should be available soon: http://www.dsmpower.tv/index.htm

That's one worry solved, but the wide lens is a bit more intractable. I'm trying the camera with the Fujinon wide adaptor next week and I'm really hoping it feels wide enough.

Steven - I've never really understood the big deal with 24P. Surely the fact that the camera is progressive is the important thing? I can understand there being a noticeable difference if you are used to video at 30fps, but the difference between 24fps and 25fps is surely not worth the all the hooha for PAL people. I don't want to open up the 24P can of worms debate, just the effect it produces is not important for what I do.

Antony Quintin · March 25th, 2006, 01:59 PM

Now Im thinking more about the HD100 now..... oh i dunno!

I was worried about the strobing effect and the battery, ok I can get the batteries for maybe £300, but the panning and fast motion work??????

Steven Thomas · March 25th, 2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony Quintin

Now Im thinking more about the HD100 now..... oh i dunno!

I was worried about the strobing effect and the battery, ok I can get the batteries for maybe £300, but the panning and fast motion work??????

If you're worried about 24P, shoot 30P for less judder.

Do understand that this is the nature of 24P, just like film.
You have to be aware of how to minimize the effect. Just watch movies
to get a feel on how they compose their shots when there's motion.
Fast camera pans are out unless you're looking for that effect.

March 24th, 2006, 03:45 AM	#1
Antony Quintin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	Decision making I am shying off away from the HD100 at the mo as the fact that it can not cope with fast moving images well, and the fact that the batteries are rubbish, so would have to spend at least another £300 on battery back ups.... I am now looking towards the Sony Z1, but the thing that is putting me off with camera is the fact that it is not shoulder mounted!!! I have read and read articles about both of the cameras, but can anyone give me an honest opinion and can say if the picture quality of both cameras are near the same or not..,..I know it depends on the subject, lighting etc, but just in general.... I produce all sorts of videos from promotional, showreels, motorsport, drama, web, so it is hard trying to choose between the cameras!!!!! Even tho the HD100 is more expensive, I still love the look of it!! Can anyone help me with a couple pros and cons?? Also the terms progressive and interlaced still bother me, can anyone spell it out for me>????? hehe Thanks for your time. A

March 24th, 2006, 04:30 AM	#3
Antony Quintin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	... Hello Mike, thanks for that. What you have just said has summed it up for me too. I don't like the feel of the Z1 compared with the HD100. the hd100 seems to be going for more the expensive route tho, I also need a good wide angle lens, as on xl2 i found the stock lens not to be wide at all, and it made shooting more difficult. I prefer the look and set out of the HD100 more aswell, and I also believe the Z1 feels cheapish and not pro kind of thing!!! If the quality is near the same, the Z1 may be the better short time option.........Oh i dont know lol hehe

March 25th, 2006, 01:59 PM	#14
Antony Quintin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	......... Now Im thinking more about the HD100 now..... oh i dunno! I was worried about the strobing effect and the battery, ok I can get the batteries for maybe £300, but the panning and fast motion work??????

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March 24th, 2006, 04:13 AM	#2
Mike Paterson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 99	Anthony, I'm having exactly the same problem choosing between the HD100 and the Z1 at the moment and it's a nightmare! HD100: Pro's - Great ergonomics, Progressive, Focus assist. Con's - Battery, Not very wide stock lens Z1 Pro's - Battery life, wide lens, more portable Cons - Horrible ergonomics I shoot a lot of documentary work with lots of handheld, often working on my own. Having a decent wide angle is imporatant as I often have to shoot in enclosed spaces, but I can't afford the 13x3.5 for the JVC. My heart is saying the HD100, but I think that with the IDX batteries and a wide adaptor on the front, the kit is going to get just too unmanageable to work fast on my own. But every time I pick up the Z1 I find it incredibly uncomfortable to hold... Any advice people?

March 24th, 2006, 04:38 AM	#4
Sjoerd Banga Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Meppel, The Netherlands Posts: 27	Antony and Mike, Same here. After extensive research (for months) on this and other forums, the 2 choices I have left now are the same camera's you're speaking of. One decision-making factor for me is the fact that I'm planning to buy it in New York next june (I'm living in the Netherlands). The HD100 sells about $2.000,= cheaper there and the Z1 about $1.500,=. Now my problem: would the HD100 get me through customs easy? I don't know, it's a big camera compared to the Z1, more pro-looking, etc. And I don't think it will fit in my Kata MC-61, a bag I'm able to take with me on the plane. Anyway, next week I'm testing both camera's here in The Netherlands. Hopefully my fears about the HD100 will disappear. Regards, Sjoerd Banga

March 24th, 2006, 04:46 AM	#5
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	From my playing with the HD 100 the camera is front heavy, so the weight of the IDX batteries will help balance it out. It's the balance that's important rather than the how much a camera weighs. One man news crews work all day with the Betacam cameras, which are usually pretty well balanced. The HD 100 is extremely light and a lot smaller compared to the Betacam kits and should be better balanced than the Z1, especially when you have a decent shotgun mic fitted to the front of the camera. So you shouldn't have any problem working on your own. How much you can pay for a camera is between you, the bank manager and your business plan.

March 24th, 2006, 05:40 AM	#6
Mike Paterson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 99	There's no question that the HD100 is better balanced with the IDX kit, but the difference is that with the HD100 you have to lug around 2 or 3 large heavy batteries, but the Z1 you can take a couple of small ones which will fit in your pocket.

March 24th, 2006, 06:09 AM	#8
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	No doubt that you would need a battery solution if you choose the HD-100. I noticed they are running a 1/2 price offer on the IDX in EU during March Click Here for details. Plus, weren't the EU dealers offering free Canopus Edius with the purchase of the camera or is that promotion over? Fast motion should not be a problem for you. There are many ways to handle fast motion with the HD-100 that give good results (like motion smooting or 480p60 mode or camera skill learning pan speed thresholds).

March 24th, 2006, 06:46 AM	#9
Marc Colemont Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 695	Antony, Even with the Z1 you need more then one battery for a day job. So the batteries was not a deciding factor for me personal. I found the fact that the HD100 could attach professional batteries better. The shoulder mount was definatly a deciding factor yes. Progressive and interleased is just different. It takes effort to get used to. For fast run and shoot stuff, I turn on the Motion Smoothing. It comes very close to interleased. I would say rent both camera's and try it out.

March 24th, 2006, 07:49 AM	#11
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	I've always been a fan of Sony, but the Z1 and HD100 are really two different cameras. I was surpised that your list of features did not include 24P. The Sony is 1080i, and the JVC is 720P. The Sony does not offer a true 24 frame progessive image. You need to find someone that has these cameras and check them out for yourself.

March 24th, 2006, 08:34 AM	#12
Sjoerd Banga Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Meppel, The Netherlands Posts: 27	Mike, Ever thought of the batteries DSM (a UK-company) are making for the HD100?? They are mentioned in the JVC-document "highway0106.pdf". If I choose to go for this camera I am also gettin myself these batteries. They carry a 7.4V output socket for which they are making a 12V DC up-converter. Can be welcome for on-camera lights or the DR-HD100. The batteries can be charged with the standard JVC charger. Here is an extract from the mentioned PDF: "Those users who always or occasionally do not want to add any extra weight or extra length to the GY-HD100 camcorder will welcome this new lithium-ion power source from UK battery manufacturer, DSM Video Limited. The battery itself operates like a JVC battery and yet has a power rating of 7.2 Ah (or 52 Wh) and is hardly bigger than JVC’s own 3.8 Ah battery, BN-V438. It is reliable and costeffective too, with its Panasonic cells delivering an estimated 3 hours running time in record mode, whilst having a similar price to the BN-V428 and BN-V438. This T-shaped battery, weighing only 325g and protruding by just 25mm beyond the rear of camera, is ideal when the camera is being used in a confined space or in handheld style. However the DSM-J7274 battery has much more to offer than simply power for the camcorder. It has a 7.4V DC output socket, for which DSM have designed a minute voltage up-converter, UU74-12 delivering 12V DC. This enable lights and, perhaps more importantly, JVC’s hard disk recorder, DR-HD100, to be run off the same battery. DSM has also designed two special brackets to hold the DR-HD100. Choose between top or side mounting style. Using the DR-HD100 and DSM’s LED light, it is calculated that a run-time of at least one hour’s recording is achievable. A DSM fast 2A charger, model CJ2, is available as an optional extra, in case of not wanting to use the slower 1A charger that comes in the GY-HD100 / 101 package. The CJ2 is a twin, simultaneous, fully automatic fast charger which safely charges one or two batteries to 90% in 3.5 hours, before the lifeenhancing cell-balancing function cuts in and takes a further 2.5 hours to reach 100% The DSM-J7274 battery and its JVC accessories will be available well before 2006." Regards, Sjoerd Banga

March 24th, 2006, 11:22 AM	#13
Mike Paterson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 99	Thanks for that Sjoerd - the DSM batteries look like a good backup option. Their website says they should be available soon: http://www.dsmpower.tv/index.htm That's one worry solved, but the wide lens is a bit more intractable. I'm trying the camera with the Fujinon wide adaptor next week and I'm really hoping it feels wide enough. Steven - I've never really understood the big deal with 24P. Surely the fact that the camera is progressive is the important thing? I can understand there being a noticeable difference if you are used to video at 30fps, but the difference between 24fps and 25fps is surely not worth the all the hooha for PAL people. I don't want to open up the 24P can of worms debate, just the effect it produces is not important for what I do.