Split Screen Effect Still Present!

Ken Freed JVC · April 26th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Mark, send the camera to Cypress as Carl suggests but also try to tell them the frame rate and the gain settings where yout hink this was encountered.

I would explain this aspect of the camera architecture differently than Carl but it takes me at least 5 minutes of talking and I have to be able to see your eyes so I can tell you understand.

This can't be typed because of length and because typing leaves the thread open to replies like are in this thread from people who don't understand.

For your information the information in this thread is insufficiently accurate.

I'm tired.

Jake Strickbine · April 26th, 2006, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

I don't buy that. 5 years ago perhaps with the cost, but not anymore,now its just marketing to hold the price and margins of 2/3" cameras where they are. You do realise how small a 1/2 sensor is don't you? No bigger than the size of your thumbnail.

I'd still have to imagine that one of the big manufacturers would have decided to bite the bullet by now and release a 1/2" camera for less than 10K if cost wasn't a major factor. Marketing only keeps things propped up for so long in an industry as competitive as this one.

Tim Holtermann · April 26th, 2006, 11:12 AM

The reason for this is because these companies do not want to kill their middle market. If they are selling 1/2" or 2/3" chips in 5K cameras why would you buy their 25k-50K models?

Just coming back from NAB it's very clear what is going on. JVC really understands where things are headed and they will have a head start. The most dissapointing showing was from Sony.

Marc Colemont · April 26th, 2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

That's not accurate; the VariCam CCDs are 1280x720 as well.

In the final output yes, but not the CCD which is 960x720.

Steven Thomas · April 26th, 2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

In the final output yes, but not the CCD which is 960x720.

This is my understanding.

This is why the JVC HD100 is unique amongst its competition.

Guy Barwood · April 26th, 2006, 09:33 PM

Quote:

The reason for this is because these companies do not want to kill their middle market. If they are selling 1/2" or 2/3" chips in 5K cameras why would you buy their 25k-50K models?

I agree completely. You know Sony have even said their HDV market is 1/3" only, XDCAM HD is 1/2" and HDCAM is 2/3", which makes no sense except for marketing. Screwing the customers is no way to earn respect.

On Varicam, I thought the CCDs were at least 1280x720 but recorded as DVCProHD 720p 960x720 4:2:2.

Barry Green · April 26th, 2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

In the final output yes, but not the CCD which is 960x720.

Not quite. The CCDs are 1280x720. The HD-SDI output is 1280x720.

The recording format is 960x720.

Stephen L. Noe · April 26th, 2006, 10:06 PM

Barry, why in the devil are you comparing a $65,000 camera that has 2/3 in chips to a 5K camera? Carl Hicks said the HD-100 has more pixels than any cam in it's price range and he is correct.

Guy Barwood · April 26th, 2006, 10:24 PM

but then he went on to specifically add that it had more than even the varicam, using it by name. Hence the discussion is more than valid in my opinion.

Stephen L. Noe · April 26th, 2006, 10:35 PM

If that's the case then what Carl said is still true. There is more recorded rez than the Varicam. Anyway, who gives a rats? If somebody was giving me a Varicam I'd take it...

Guy Barwood · April 26th, 2006, 10:40 PM

"This is more pixels being scanned in one frame than ANY other HD camera in this price class, and even more than the Panasonic Varicam."

ie: The comparison was about how many pixels were being scanned by the CCD block, not how many pixels are recorded to tape.

"If somebody was giving me a Varicam I'd take it..."
Which just shows that pixel count on tape isn't everything.

Carl Hicks · April 26th, 2006, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

That's not accurate; the VariCam CCDs are 1280x720 as well.

Barry,

I stand corrected. The Varicam is 1280 x 720 at the CCD. What I was thinking of is the fact the even though the Varicam is 1280x720 at the CCD's, it records only 960 x 720 pixels on the tape.

By comparison, the JVC ProHD cameras have 1280 x 720 pixel CCD's and they record 1280 x 720 pixels to the tape.

Thanks, Carl

Guy Barwood · April 26th, 2006, 11:28 PM

960x720 @ 4:2:2 vs 1280x720 @4:2:0 using two very different codecs at very different bit rates.

My point only being that fact DVCProHD is not recording those lines doesn't make it a better or worse approach in itself. Each pixel of DVCProHD is less compressed on average.

Having said that there is no need to go into it any further, we all know the pro's and cons of HDV vs DVCProHD, its been done to death.

Scott Jaco · April 29th, 2006, 06:20 AM

All HD-100's are capable of SSE. If I hook up my HD100 to my TV, turn all the lights off in my apartment, boost the gain to 18db and point the camera at plain white wall, you will see the line down the center.

The reason for this phenomenon is that the 2 DSP engines need a certain amount of light in order to calibrate with each other properly. If there isn’t enough light, they can’t sync together.

If you are shooting a dark area for an event, use a camera light. If you need a night shot, drop the gain down and add some light.

What some people on these forums don’t seem to understand is that if you are stressing your camera to the point of showing SSE, you will have so much gain noise and murky color, SSE will be the least of your problems. You are not using the camera properly.

Stephan Ahonen · April 29th, 2006, 09:36 AM

18dB is ridiculous, I've never pushed a camera that far and actually put it to tape. I won't even go above 6dB with 2/3" cameras that aren't even as susceptible to gain noise as 1/3" stuff like the HD100. Maybe 12dB if we're in a situation where I just have to get the shot no matter what, but I'll try to add more light first if possible. By the time I'm pushing 18dB I'm telling whoever I'm shooting for there's simply not enough light to shoot, or I'm pulling out my handycam which has a "Night Shot" mode. For some reason Green Vision just ends up looking more acceptable.

April 26th, 2006, 07:46 AM	#31
Ken Freed JVC JVC Regional Sales Engineer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wayne, NJ Posts: 49	Mark, send the camera to Cypress as Carl suggests but also try to tell them the frame rate and the gain settings where yout hink this was encountered. I would explain this aspect of the camera architecture differently than Carl but it takes me at least 5 minutes of talking and I have to be able to see your eyes so I can tell you understand. This can't be typed because of length and because typing leaves the thread open to replies like are in this thread from people who don't understand. For your information the information in this thread is insufficiently accurate. I'm tired. __________________ Ken Freed JVC Mid-Atlantic District Sales Manager (201) 637-7706 kfreed@jvc.com

April 26th, 2006, 11:12 AM	#33
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	The reason for this is because these companies do not want to kill their middle market. If they are selling 1/2" or 2/3" chips in 5K cameras why would you buy their 25k-50K models? Just coming back from NAB it's very clear what is going on. JVC really understands where things are headed and they will have a head start. The most dissapointing showing was from Sony.

April 26th, 2006, 10:06 PM	#38
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Barry, why in the devil are you comparing a $65,000 camera that has 2/3 in chips to a 5K camera? Carl Hicks said the HD-100 has more pixels than any cam in it's price range and he is correct.

April 26th, 2006, 10:24 PM	#39
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	but then he went on to specifically add that it had more than even the varicam, using it by name. Hence the discussion is more than valid in my opinion.

April 26th, 2006, 10:35 PM	#40
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	If that's the case then what Carl said is still true. There is more recorded rez than the Varicam. Anyway, who gives a rats? If somebody was giving me a Varicam I'd take it...

April 26th, 2006, 10:40 PM	#41
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	"This is more pixels being scanned in one frame than ANY other HD camera in this price class, and even more than the Panasonic Varicam." ie: The comparison was about how many pixels were being scanned by the CCD block, not how many pixels are recorded to tape. "If somebody was giving me a Varicam I'd take it..." Which just shows that pixel count on tape isn't everything.

April 26th, 2006, 11:28 PM	#43
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	960x720 @ 4:2:2 vs 1280x720 @4:2:0 using two very different codecs at very different bit rates. My point only being that fact DVCProHD is not recording those lines doesn't make it a better or worse approach in itself. Each pixel of DVCProHD is less compressed on average. Having said that there is no need to go into it any further, we all know the pro's and cons of HDV vs DVCProHD, its been done to death.

April 29th, 2006, 06:20 AM	#44
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	All HD-100's are capable of SSE. If I hook up my HD100 to my TV, turn all the lights off in my apartment, boost the gain to 18db and point the camera at plain white wall, you will see the line down the center. The reason for this phenomenon is that the 2 DSP engines need a certain amount of light in order to calibrate with each other properly. If there isn’t enough light, they can’t sync together. If you are shooting a dark area for an event, use a camera light. If you need a night shot, drop the gain down and add some light. What some people on these forums don’t seem to understand is that if you are stressing your camera to the point of showing SSE, you will have so much gain noise and murky color, SSE will be the least of your problems. You are not using the camera properly.

April 29th, 2006, 09:36 AM	#45
Stephan Ahonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 512	18dB is ridiculous, I've never pushed a camera that far and actually put it to tape. I won't even go above 6dB with 2/3" cameras that aren't even as susceptible to gain noise as 1/3" stuff like the HD100. Maybe 12dB if we're in a situation where I just have to get the shot no matter what, but I'll try to add more light first if possible. By the time I'm pushing 18dB I'm telling whoever I'm shooting for there's simply not enough light to shoot, or I'm pulling out my handycam which has a "Night Shot" mode. For some reason Green Vision just ends up looking more acceptable.