HD110 or XL H1?

Chris Hurd · July 27th, 2006, 10:42 PM

I've always looked at Canon vs. Fujinon as pretty much a Ford / Chevy argument. They're both great. They both have an amazing product line, a legacy for high quality and solid reputations. You'll find plenty of dedicated fans in both camps. I think the pricing is your general guide... it's not so much one manufacturer being "better" than the other, as it is that the more expensive lenses are "better" regardless of who makes them.

Tim Le · July 27th, 2006, 11:19 PM

Chris is right. The HD100 uses ENG style lenses which is a whole different ballpark than the dedicated lenses for the H1. And even within ENG lenses there are "professional" lenses and then there are "broadcast" lenses. It's not unusual for a broadcast lens to cost $10K or even $20k.

Fujinon will be expanding their 1/3" lenses for the HD100 later this year. Among them is a premium HD lens with all the bells and whistles of a digital servo (DigiPower). It will probably cost around $10K. Canon will also introduce it's first 1/3" lens for the HD100 later this year and I think it's also pretty expensive ($5K and up).

Joe Carney · July 28th, 2006, 05:49 PM

Thanks Tim, thats good to know there will be something less than the 13k msrp lens out now. Hoping street prices will bring them down even further.

Carl Hicks · July 28th, 2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Milneck

When is this shipping? Cost?

Hi Greg,

The GY-HD250U is estimated to ship around October or November, at an estimated list price of $8995.00 for the head. It will use the same accessories and lenses that the GY-HD100U / GY-HD110U use. Standard bayonet lens mount that can accomodate your choice of now 5 different 1/3" lenses, or 1/2" or 2/3" lenses with a small adaptor, or many different prime and still camera lenses.

I think the GY-HD250U will have the kind of features you are seeking. It will have all of the features of the GY-HD110U, plus these key new features:

HD-SDI out / SDI out
Component out and composite out at the same time
Dedicated audio outs
Time Code in / Time code out
CCU control port
Genlock in
Five HD record modes: 720p/24; 720p/25; 720p/30; 720p/50; 720p/60

Regards, Carl

Greg Milneck · July 30th, 2006, 07:42 AM

Thanks Carl,
Is there any way to take advantage of the SDI out in the field and record an uncompressed signal?

Will the cameras SDI out work on HDV playback from the camera?

Carl Hicks · July 31st, 2006, 01:11 PM

Greg,

There are several HD-SDI recorders that you could connect the camera to. Tape based formats, like HDCam, D5-HD, or DVCPro HD. Or disc-based products, like Doremi Labs, Grass Valley, Leitch, or Cineform. Although none of these product are exactly "portable", you could use them with the GY-HD250U to record HD-SDI.

Check out the Waifain HR-1. It looks interesting:

http://www.cineform.com/products/WafianHR1.htm

And yes, upon tape playback, the GY-HD250 will output the signal, uncompressed, on the SDI / HDSDI connector.

Regards, Carl

David Ziegelheim · July 31st, 2006, 02:05 PM

If only it wasn't it $15k!!!

Since that unit will also record from the the HD100/110/200, how would the quality compare with HD250, all recorded directly to Cineform? Do you have samples???

Question: Does this also bypass the HD100 audio compression?

Carl Hicks · July 31st, 2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Ziegelheim

If only it wasn't it $15k!!!

- Yes, but that's a whole lot less than a high-end HD VTR.

Quote:

Since that unit will also record from the the HD100/110/200, how would the quality compare with HD250, all recorded directly to Cineform? Do you have samples???

- The quality of uncompressed component HD from a GYHD100/110/200 recorded on the Wafain vs uncompressed HDSDI from a GY-HD250U recorded on the Wafain should be close. But, of course since the GY-HD250U is not a shippping product yet, there have been no tests done.

Quote:

Question: Does this also bypass the HD100 audio compression?

You could just feed the audio straight in to the Wafain recorder, thus bypassing the camera. You'd probably want to do that anyway to keep the audio path balanced XLR, as the camera does not have XLR outputs.

Greg Milneck · July 31st, 2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Hicks

Greg,

And yes, upon tape playback, the GY-HD250 will output the signal, uncompressed, on the SDI / HDSDI connector.

Regards, Carl

Carl-
The SDI / HDSDI connector plays from tape uncompressed??
How is this possible, the tape records a HDV compressed signal?

Scott Cantrell · July 31st, 2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Milneck

When is this shipping? Cost?

Greg, Hey there! Good to see you on HDVinfo!
As Carl mentioned, estimated List is going to be somewhere around $8995 for camerahead only (possibly viewfinder included). A working ENG package with lens will be close to $12K and studio packages will be around $20 - 25K depending on the lens.

Scott Cantrell
TapeWorks Texas Inc - HDVinfo Sponser
www.tapeworkstexas.com
scott@tapeworkstexas.com
866-827-3489

Carl Hicks · July 31st, 2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Milneck

Carl-
The SDI / HDSDI connector plays from tape uncompressed??
How is this possible, the tape records a HDV compressed signal?

Greg, the JVC ProHD camcorders, just like all HDV camcorders, and other format HD camcorders, record the HD data in a compressed (MPEG-2 encoded) form on the tape. When the tape is played back, the compressed data is decompressed (MPEG-2 decoded), and the resulting uncompressed signal is sent to the SDI / HDSDI connector. So, yes, the signal on tape is compressesd, but when you play the tape back, the output signal on the SDI / HDSDI connector is uncompressed.

If you have the camera set up live, the signal on the SDI / HDSDI is uncompressed.

Greg Milneck · July 31st, 2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Hicks

Greg, the JVC ProHD camcorders, just like all HDV camcorders, and other format HD camcorders, record the HD data in a compressed (MPEG-2 encoded) form on the tape. When the tape is played back, the compressed data is decompressed (MPEG-2 decoded), and the resulting uncompressed signal is sent to the SDI / HDSDI connector. So, yes, the signal on tape is compressesd, but when you play the tape back, the output signal on the SDI / HDSDI connector is uncompressed.

If you have the camera set up live, the signal on the SDI / HDSDI is uncompressed.

So, are you saying that the playback from HDV tape thru this HDSDI will look as good as the original signal? Sounds like a miracle!

Carl Hicks · July 31st, 2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Milneck

So, are you saying that the playback from HDV tape thru this HDSDI will look as good as the original signal? Sounds like a miracle!

Hi Greg,

No, I did not ever say that it would be identical. Certainly, with any video tape recording, there is some loss, sometimes a very little, sometimes more than a little. You will have to be the judge for it your self when the camera ships.

You asked if the signal out of the HD-SDI connector upon tape playback is uncompressed, and the answer is yes. It's an uncompressed signal, sourced from the decompression of a compressed signal. In that regard, it's just the same function as a HDCam or Varicam camcorder or VTR.

There is no HD video tape format that I know of that does not have some sort of compression.

Greg Milneck · July 31st, 2006, 10:09 PM

Thanks Carl,
I always assumed the HDSDI out would only play the compressed HDV signal, and the only way to get uncompressed out of the camera was "live".
Thanks for the clairification.

July 27th, 2006, 10:42 PM	#16
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	I've always looked at Canon vs. Fujinon as pretty much a Ford / Chevy argument. They're both great. They both have an amazing product line, a legacy for high quality and solid reputations. You'll find plenty of dedicated fans in both camps. I think the pricing is your general guide... it's not so much one manufacturer being "better" than the other, as it is that the more expensive lenses are "better" regardless of who makes them. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 28th, 2006, 05:49 PM	#18
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Thanks Tim, thats good to know there will be something less than the 13k msrp lens out now. Hoping street prices will bring them down even further. __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

July 30th, 2006, 07:42 AM	#20
Greg Milneck Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 145	Thanks Carl, Is there any way to take advantage of the SDI out in the field and record an uncompressed signal? Will the cameras SDI out work on HDV playback from the camera? __________________ www.digitalfx.tv

July 31st, 2006, 01:11 PM	#21
Carl Hicks JVC America Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 516	HDSDI recording Greg, There are several HD-SDI recorders that you could connect the camera to. Tape based formats, like HDCam, D5-HD, or DVCPro HD. Or disc-based products, like Doremi Labs, Grass Valley, Leitch, or Cineform. Although none of these product are exactly "portable", you could use them with the GY-HD250U to record HD-SDI. Check out the Waifain HR-1. It looks interesting: http://www.cineform.com/products/WafianHR1.htm And yes, upon tape playback, the GY-HD250 will output the signal, uncompressed, on the SDI / HDSDI connector. Regards, Carl __________________ Carl Hicks JVC Professional Products Company

July 31st, 2006, 10:09 PM	#29
Greg Milneck Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 145	Thanks Carl, I always assumed the HDSDI out would only play the compressed HDV signal, and the only way to get uncompressed out of the camera was "live". Thanks for the clairification. __________________ www.digitalfx.tv

July 27th, 2006, 11:19 PM	#17
Tim Le Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 350	Chris is right. The HD100 uses ENG style lenses which is a whole different ballpark than the dedicated lenses for the H1. And even within ENG lenses there are "professional" lenses and then there are "broadcast" lenses. It's not unusual for a broadcast lens to cost $10K or even $20k. Fujinon will be expanding their 1/3" lenses for the HD100 later this year. Among them is a premium HD lens with all the bells and whistles of a digital servo (DigiPower). It will probably cost around $10K. Canon will also introduce it's first 1/3" lens for the HD100 later this year and I think it's also pretty expensive ($5K and up).

July 31st, 2006, 02:05 PM	#22
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	If only it wasn't it $15k!!! Since that unit will also record from the the HD100/110/200, how would the quality compare with HD250, all recorded directly to Cineform? Do you have samples??? Question: Does this also bypass the HD100 audio compression?