Matte boxes
 

Hi

Can anyone recommend good but not too expensive matt boxes for the HD100?

Thanks

Trevor

Trevor,

Cavision has systems specked out specifically for the GYHD100
visist http://www.cavision.com/pictures/JVC.../JVCHD100U.htm

If you are interested in their products, contact TapeWorks Texas Inc for additonal information.

Scott Cantrell
TapeWorks Texas Inc - HDVinfo Sponser
866-827-3489
scott@tapeworkstexas.com

Thanks Scott

I am in the UK, so I will see if this is available this side of the pond.

Kind regards

Trevor

hi Trevor

I also have the cavision setup. I think Optex were the only uk rep for Cavision but they went under round Christmas time. I imported mine myself and didn't find the cost too prohibitive.

Greg C

Are there reviews available on CAVISION equipment somewhere?

They sell a .6x w/a adapter for a fraction of other company's ada[ters. Since the prices are hard to come by for CAVISION, I'm not sure how the prices for other items specifically compare to their counterparts from other companies. I am always comfused when companies and dealers hold back their prices and require a direct contact to get a price. I understand minimum advertised prices, and a link or an email takes care of this, but whenever items require a phone call and there are no prices otherwise available, I'm suspicious as to why. (There is an audio supply company that requires phone a phone call, and they are okay... but the result for me has been that the only items I order from them are the items I no in advance will be a lower price -- a certain brand of microphone -- and all other items I buy elsewhere.)

Are the matte boxes, follow focus systems, filters comparable in quality to other companies that charge a lot more?

On the face of it I've always wondered why Matte Boxes, rails, follow focus systems are so expensive in the first place. I can only guess that because so few are sold about 80% if the cost is in holding stock, marketing, advertising, etc.

Considering what I spent on our matte box for our HD100 (the following is just my opinion) the bloated prices are a carry over from the film industries history of bloated prices for specialty items. Seriously, the raw materials are hardly even a factor when broken down to components.

You would think that with the volume of HD100, HVX, XL-H1 cameras sold that someone could produce an injection molded quality matte box for around $300 and still turn a good profit. I'm not even talking glass here, just a box. If a quality HD camera can be produced and sold for around $5k why can't someone produce affordable add-ons? Sorry, but I have been needing to rant about this for a while now. Thanks, I feel better.

Yeah. But keep in mind the precision engineering that goes into a professional matte box.

Not that I know of.
I can tell you my opinion. I have the Cavision bellows matte box with rods and handgrips. I think the matte box is well built and well designed for the price. However, I hate the French flag. It doesn't have a large range of positions the way the Chroziel does. I usually remove it and create a topper out of black wrap when needed. (see photo)

Even with this in consideration, they are still way over-priced.

I have come to realise that this game is a money pit.

Andrew

Are the matte boxes, follow focus systems, filters comparable in quality to other companies that charge a lot more?

On the face of it I've always wondered why Matte Boxes, rails, follow focus systems are so expensive in the first place. I can only guess that because so few are sold about 80% if the cost is in holding stock, marketing, advertising, etc.[/QUOTE]


I own the Cavision matte box and also picked up a set of filters, including their Polarizer, which I promptly returned for reasons I'll explain. First of all you get what you pay for in this business, just like any other. The Cavision Matte Box is tolerable- but just. They are cheap and plastic feeling not to mention the french and side flags just don't line up, so you get light bleeding in from all directions. Kind of misses the point of having one, right? The Chroziel Matte Box, for example, is far more money but you're comparing apples and... well, a vegetable. If you get a Cavision be sure to get the metal filter holders for the extra $40 buck each because the plastic ones break very easily. With regards to their filters, when I picked mine up three of them didn't even fit into the holders properly. They were either so lose that lightly shaking it would cause it to just simply fall out, and another was so tight I had to force it in. Snug- yes, but try getting it out without it popping across the room and breaking on the floor. The polarizer was just plain worthless! It was somewhat acceptable on a wide shot but I couldn't pull a focus, at all, when zoomed in closer on something. Long story short, I paid the same price for 5 Cavision filters that I ended up paying for each Tiffen one I eventually bought. Expensive, yes. But what good were the others if they didn't fit or you couldn't get a focus.

As far as why these things are so expensive I can only say that, when compared to "the real movie gack" it's relatively cheap(trust me)and they don't sell millions of these items like they do car stereos, so, like your 80% rule- it applies here. I didn't bother with the Cavision Follow Focus because, in my opinion, it was less then quality. I instead picked up a Cinetech system that was more than twice the price but much more than twice the craftsmanship. These types of items are precision instruments that take time and money to develop, so for that reason I can justify the cost.

well, owning a chrosziel mattebox for my hd 100 and a Vocas for my z1, and had before a Cavision for an xl 1 in my opinion there is no comparison between the first two matteboxes with the cavision, which is just a piece of plastic, a suggestion, save a bit more money and go for a piece of art like the chrosziel, if you work with it, it's a wellworth money spend.Saving money buying something that in a while will be useless it's frustrating.
best luck

I agree they are overpriced, I only use mine once in a while.

you know I very carefully checked out the various setups this NAB, and the cavision stuff was cr@p. sloppy,low precision, junk. not just my opinion but that of several other people I spoke with that I'd call well qualified on the subject. I've used the chroziel on F900's and D600's, and it just works, no excuses.

is the chroziel and petroff a bit over priced ? yes, but it does work, yes, and its far better made. another thought, it'll last you your next couple of cameras. Just like getting a real wireless audio setup setup. I spent $2k for a lectrosonics setup, I've used it on who knows how many video cameras, and quite a few film shoots in several countries over the last 10 years. when you look at it like that, it was a great deal. Like you tell your clients, you get what you pay for... I wish there was a high quality matte box / rods / follow focus that would NOT set you back $3k..... but there really isn't much choice.


Steve Oakley

Even if the matte box is letting a bit of light in around the edges, as long as those edges don't happen to line up with a major light source what's the problem?

As for a follow focus... What's the point unless you have a focus puller? If you're not using a 35mm adaptor your depth of field is so huge you don't need any extra sensitivity a follow focus will give you. If you have a 35mm adaptor and 35mm primes you can probably afford a follow focus.

Honestly, sometimes I think everyone tries to be a bit too "filmlike" here. There are things I've never seen in years of professional ENG shooting being leapt upon because "that's how film does it."

When I ordered my Cavision matte box I also ordered 3 of their filters. I don't think I actually ever shot anything for real with them. The glass just wasn't ok, and I am a best an amateur. All my filters are Tiffen...although I am intrigued by some others.

However, the 3x3 matte box itself wasn't that bad, other than the too thin filter holders. Are their rods really junk?

I completely agree with Steve. Buy a cheap matte box and you'll throw away those few hundreds of dollars. $2000 for a Chrosziel and a couple of filters might seem like a lo of money but a matte box is the one tools that can improve the look of your pictures dramatically. What we do is based on controlling the light, a good matte box allows you to do exactly that, control flare, light end use filters.
We can argue about overpriced gear until we get old but the fact is, there are no cheap alternatives. If it's not Chrosziel it's Petroff. They both sell for $1700-$1900 for an HD100. Tomorrow you buy another camera, you change the adapter ring and off you go. Spend $1900 today, take better pictures for the rest of your life.

A good matte box will last years, the cheap stuff just falls apart.

I've got an old Arri (3 x 3 & 3 x4) bellows matte box that must be 20 years old (with the use of larger 4 x 4 filters it's not used anymore), but it's still working wonderfully.

Hi Trevor

I've got a TLS Kestrel Matte box for my Z1 and although cheap(ish) it seems sturdy enough and has been fine so far.... (In fact it is the second I have had as the first got stolen with my camera.)

It takes two filters and is light enough to work with just the screw on adapter, although you can get a rod system for it.... It comes with a French flag.

I agree some are just not worth it, but I'm quite happy with the TLS stuff. At the price you can get several of these for the price of some of the others.

I picked mine up from Prokit.co.uk in Chiswick... (a very professional and helpful place)

Regards
Gareth

Matte boxes and filters have a longer useful life than a video camera. They also hold their value better on the second-hand market.

Over priced is a subjective thing. If you ever even touched an Arri matte box, specially the new ones, you will see why they cost what they do.

TLS are good matte boxes. In my opinion they are as good as Vocas or Chrosziel. They are just not as well known. The one you got (Kestrel) is cheap because it’s an entry level one made for DV, equivalent to a Formatt. But TLS’ higher end stuff like the Hawk 4"x4" and Raven 5.65"x5.65" are top notch gear and cost more than equivalent Chrosziels.

Indie snap
 

Anybody have any experience with this matte box on an hd100/110? It's obviously not an expensive matte,.....but you never know.

http://www.indiesnap.com/hd.html

Looks pretty "smengy" in my opinion, but who knows...

The filter folder allows tons of light in from the sides, which will cause problems eventually.

In my opinion, the maker of this mattebox hasn't spent any time with a real mattebox from Arriflex or Chrozsiel, and is not aware of the hows and whys of one.

Interesting, but the same problem as the Cavision: 2mm filter holders. Are your filters 2mm? Tiffen's are 4mm. And none rotate.

However, nice price!

http://www.cinetactics.com/Page.bok?template=c_mb125h
I use this when I am in the backcounty as it folds down very small and fits nicely in my backpack for what it is it works great and I have no complaints, it does take a little work putting it on though but for backpacking you just cant beat it. I can barely get into the back country with the equipment I already have so this was a nice plus.

In my opinion, if you need a Mattebox do yourself a favor and buy either Arri, Van Diemen, TLS, Chrosziel, Petroff or even a Vocas or Formatt if you are using it with a handcam type like a GL2, Z1 or HVX200, but aside of those I can’t think of one that it’s worth the trouble. This indiesnap sure isn’t, neither is Cavision in my opinion. The Cinetactics one looks more like something disposable, but I think it’s in a different category. It’s more of a portable solution I guess. They say it can take filters but I can’t imagine how it would have rotating filter trays. If it’s not rotating then it's kind pointless. It's probably more a sun shade than a real mattebox. That’s the problem today, any black square around the front barrel gets to be called a mattebox.

The indiesnap is basically a $10 Cokin 'P' filter holder attached to probably $50 worth of riveted sheet metal and it's sold for $300. And you thought the Chrosziels had bloated prices. At least the high-end stuff actually works like it's suppose to. None of these low-end "matteboxes" have a rotating filter tray and they all leak light around the filter slots--making it, like others said, pretty much pointless. It's kind of funny to have a big shade to block light in front of the lens and then have light leaking right into the filters.

your right I use it more as a sun shade and it dose not hold rotating filters but when you are carrying gear and food for 8-10 days and camera equipment, batteries and tripod ect... and you are traveling on foot for 40 miles their is nothing else out their you can use thats better it has its nitch and it fits very well.

cintatics can be set up to not leak light the filter options are where you loose but again for what I do the other choices are not an option like I said it has its nitch and fit very well for what it is.

The Formatt matte box, one of the "cheaper" alternatives, does have a rotating filter stage and received high marks in a recent review on DV.Com. It does not have provisions for blocking light from the sides, but does from the top. At this price point however, a little gaffer's tape does wonders, not to mention saving you about $700. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have an Arri, but the Formatt is functional at this low price point.

I don't think Tim was talking about light leaking through the front of the shade where the eyebrow and siders would go. He was talking about leaking through the filter trays I guess. Does the Formatt leak that way? I don't remember it doing it when I messed with one. It felt pretty well built, specially considering the price. Not Arri for sure, but then again it's about 1/8 of the price.

From the DV.COM review of the Formatt Matte Box:

"There's a hinged cover over the filter stages that prevents light from above from entering the filter stages and causing reflections or flare. The hinged cover is one of the nice touches representative of the care and thought that went into the design of this matte box."

Here's a link to the review:
http://dv.com/news/news_item.jhtml?L...ew/goodman0507

(If not registered at dv.com, you may have to register and login for this link to work.)]

This matte box seems to be the best of the low cost options. It costs $350 at B&H and the adapter ring for the HD100 is $35 (Adorma--probably available at B&H, but I couldn't find it). B&H has the box in a kit with 3 filters, but the kit doesn't include the 82mm adapter; it includes a 58mm and a 72mm adapter.

The hinged cover does block light from entering from the top but you could get a light leak from the side in certain circumstances, although highly unlikely. And I concur with Michael in that the Formatt boxes are well built and when I had trouble with mine, Formatt was very attentive and responsive and sent me replacement parts without question.

Hope this helps.

Almost forgot, quick plug for ZGC. They were very helpful in my search for Formatt filters--which are tip-top notch--and mounting hardware for the FM-500.

I agree the Formatt is one of the better low-cost options. Instead of gaffer's tape you might want to try a black scrunchy that girls use to tie their hair into a ponytail.

The higher-end matte boxes like from Arri, are specifically designed to prevent light leaks. The matte box housing is large enough to totally cover the filter holder (which in turn totally encloses the glass filter) regardless of how the filter holder is rotated. There is also a rubber "donut" that seals the back of the filter trays to the lens barrel. Obviously all of this cost money but hopefully some people now understand that matte boxes are more than just a "plastic box" at bloated prices.

AFAIK the matte boxes that don't have rotating filter trays are the indiesnap, Cinetactics and Hyson. The Geardear has limited rotation but that thing is made from foam PVC--yikes!

I'm interested in the Chrosziel, but the mount concerns me. I have the four-screw v-mount adapter plate on the camera, which replaced the standard single-screw mount. Is there an easy way to mount using this configuration to any of the matte boxes discussed in this thread?

Hi Tim,
just to clarify things: the 4x4" 3sixtystage has it´s name from the unlimited rotation, you can turn your filter 360°. Maybe you have seen the picture of the 4x5.56", it´s only rotating 40°, because the rods are in the way...
I´m sorry, that you haven´t got your hands on our Geardear mattebox. Otherwise you would love this "foamed PVC", because it is unbelievable lightweight in conjunction with a stability coming close to metal. Maybe a second opinion helps http://www.redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2191 And it is definetely steady enough to fix the filters in front of the lens. And don´t forget that it´s the only one which is really modular, you can have different filterstages for different needs combined and changed fast. Even the ARRIs can´t do it...
Hope you can make own experiences with our mattebox soon,
best wishes from Germany

Gerhard

PS: If you can afford an ARRI mattebox, then buy it, it will be always worth the money. But with the expensive others, it´s a different game...

Gerhard,

What height adjustment from the rods do you have? Do you have top and side flags (a top flag is shown in a picture but otherwise not mentioned on your site)? What is the field of view, especially with the masks? Does filter size affect the field of view? How does using a 3x3 filter affect the field of view? Can a 3x3 be used in a '3sixty' tray?

Thanks,

David

Hi David,many questions for a sunday evening;-)

- What height adjustment from the rods do you have?

There is a picture on our website http://www.geardear.com/adjust.html which makes it clear, how it is done. Unscrew the two screws and you can raise or lower the mattebox to the needed height, around one inch from standard height.

- Do you have top and side flags (a top flag is shown in a picture but otherwise not mentioned on your site)?

The top is called "french flag", it´s on the wishlist, but didn´t make to an explanation inside. I think, it´s selfexplaining...
Side flags are in developement... All pieces are always exchangeable. So if someone has an "older" Geardear mattebox can upgrade later to all what´s coming (for example the side flags). But we are on market only since eight weeks, not everything can be developed at once. You have to start with something... Even the height adjustment came later, because the people demanded it. And they exchanged some static filterstages to adjustable ones, the rest was useable, because it´s modular...

- What is the field of view, especially with the masks?

That´s a really difficult answer, if you want it in focus length. It varies from system to system: even with different adapters it´s different, the "negative" of the M2 is bigger than "Mini35" for example. In angle it´s easy: with 2 filterstages and the "4shade" you get around 80 degrees, with the "2shade" you get 100°. I have never measured the angle of view with the masks.

- Does filter size affect the field of view?

Yes, as always. The first two filterstages can be 4x4" until 20mm for 36x24mm "negative", for the third you need then 4x565" filters. It´s the same with every mattebox, if the filter is not close to the lens - and obviously the third filter can´t be close to the lens.

- How does using a 3x3 filter affect the field of view?

With the new cameras it makes sense to upgrade to 4x4" filters. The lensdiameters are always to close to the 75x75mm of the filter, you get vignetting very easyly.

Can a 3x3 be used in a '3sixty' tray?

There is no "3sixtytray3x3" yet, but if you want one, we can develop one for you in no time. But you have to consider that 3x3 rotated to 45° means your filtersize reduces to around 65mmx40mm on 16to9. You can´t go wide with your 72mm or 82mm thread lens...

Hope this helps...

Gerhard

The only real problem I encountered with the Formatt was that it didn't work with any add on lenses on the DVX100... no wide angle or telephoto lens. That was a deal breaker for me. Otherwise it appeared functional, but way too large what it does. A used clip-on Chrosziel matte box only costs a few hundred more than a new Formatt and is a much more useful bit of kit.. I went with a new Vocas and have been very pleased with it. Works great. No problems whatsoever. It is extremely durable.

Where can I get one of these matte boxes, I've been on the Tiffen site but can you even buy stuff on it? If you could tell me where i can get a matte box and some Tiffen's i'd be most gratefull.

Regards.