HM700 vs EX3
 

Hi.
I am sorry if this has been posted before, but I couldn`t find any thread on the subject.

I am the proud owner of two HD111s and a Sony EX1. I have been very happy with the XDCam EX codec and the picture quality, but I am now looking to buy a camera with interchangeable lenses and want to sell my EX1 before buying.

I am torn between the EX3 and HM700 as they both seem to be excellent cameras. Does anyone have any suggestions? Has anybody done any comparison tests? I kind of now what I am getting if I buy an EX3 but not so with the JVC.

Thanks.

I have an HM700. I have some noise problems.. nothing unsolvable with extra light but sure the 1280 CCDs are quite darker than the 1920 CMOS. The workflow (SDHC Cards - Final Cut) is fantastic and cards cost much less than Sony's SxS. I could almost cards only once and keep them as a backup... almost. I quite like the camera itself and my problems up to now have been with lenses I got (JVC Italy gave me the 16x and not the 17x that everybody says are much better). You'll need a 300$ quick release plate to use it on a tripod (Sony's compatible product costs 200$ I think). Remember also that allthough MPEG2 HD you get from this camera is fully compatibile with XDCam is obtained by a JVC processor and not a Sony and so it's not "real" XDCAM. I like the pre-rec function I used with good results on nature documentaries. The LCD screen is very good but very difficult to see in brigh light environnement. If you want to see some footage I shot (compressed) you can find it here (my settings have harder black and brighter colours)

siRoma
AREARISERVATA (top right)
login "hm700" (all small)
Donwload with "right click-save as"

I would most definately go with the EX3, for its 1/2 CMOS alone. You dont need to spend a fortune on SxS cards now that the MxR adaptors allow the use of cheap SDHC cards in the EX series. The advantage of the HM700 is of course it is a shoulder mount therefore far more comfortable for any extended work without support.

For many applications the JVC has a big advantage - CCD - no rolling shutter issues.

It's easy to compare the features between these 2 cameras, but I'm interested in hearing how the pictures compare.

The Ex-1/3 is pretty amazing except for an IR problem sand minor rolling shutter issues with flash. How does the 700 picture compare?

Leonard - your point is well made.

Having said that - we are somewhat reduced to comparing "specs" until enough units have shipped and used and results posted.

dependent on large ccd chips
 

after using the sony dsr400 for years now I am hooked on larger CCD chips.
For you photographers it is like comparing ISO 400(1/3 chip) to ISO 200(1/2 chip) to the ultimate ISO 100(2/3 chip). I am watching and waiting for JVC for a 1/2 chip CCD, being a wedding guy, I NEED NO rolling shutter Flash issues

I'm guessing with your ASA comparisons, you're talking about image resolution, and not low-light sensitivity. It is my understanding that larger chips (whether CCD or CMOS) are more sensitive in low light than smaller chips.

I would think, if you're talking about light sensitivity, that you could reverse the scale you described, with 2/3" chips being equivalent to ASA 400, 1/2" chips as ASA 200, and 1/3" chips as ASA 100. Keep in mind that every camera has a different inherent ASA rating, and that this will change depending on whether or not gain is applied.

Geez Steve - I sold my gydv500 so cheap...
Honestly, some principles don't hold through technology advances. DOF is the principal factor in image size and often it's your friend (staying in focus)
Light sensitivity & resolution will continue to improve in smaller imagers but what so t change is the cost and bulk of lenses etc for larger systems.
I expect JVC will commit to this standard for awhile building on lenses made for them and existing engineering. I think it's a good niche

Hi Brian, I am comparing noise in the image, S/N ratio , 2/3 chips low light performance is outstanding. the biggest race now is how to get higher resolution with lower noise without rolling shutter issue

Hi Sean, The Jvc Chip sets in the X2 thru the 5100 are the best i have ever used in 1/2.
That is why I hope jvc expands to 1/2 inch to HD

Thanks for all the input. What I am thinking now is, I already own two HD111s. Wouldn`t it make more sense to buy the HM700 if I also invest in a HZCA13U adapter?
My understanding is that this adapter fits every camera in the ProHD range. As I also own the BR-HD50 deck I could use this as a backup for my recordings as well.

I have tried the EX3 and although the picture quality is amazing I sure didn`t like the form factor. The HM700 looks a lot better.

My two concerns is how the HM700 handles low light and shots indoors as I have yet to try one. Also some of my colleagues from other TV- channels don`t seem to take me seriously when I show up with "just" a JVC-camera. They cannot understand that such a small camera can be any good! I on the other hand know what my JVCs are capable of, and they are right up there, with the other big cameras.

The workflow for the 700 seems great however, as I use FCP.

Work Around
 

LOL...So if the "JVC' label is a problem, remove it, find a nice "SONY" label to replace it, charge alot more money for your work, and claim your cam is a "PROTO TYPE" and you are a "BETA TESTER".....lol.....they will love the workflow and footage shot by the 700..... just kiding !

Hi all.
This weekend I had the chance to shoot with an EX3. The images were brilliant as expected, but the camera somewhat ackward to work with, meaning in "shouldermounted" mode. But being able to adjust the grip gave the camera a whole new dimension.

Still, after 6 hours of shooting straight ( live event for National TV ) I was kind of fatigued backwise. Felt a little like my old Canon XL1, a bit frontheavy.

I found myself flipping the monocular up and just used the LCD- screen.

The producer asked me whether I would like to use his stabilizer, after a while I felt I should have taken that offer.

I liked the EX3, excellent low light performance, but I probably would have liked it even more on a tripod. I actually missed my HD111s, shoulderwise, during the shoot.

Maybe I am leaning towards the HM700, but have still to try it out.

I wish I could take the guts out of an EX-3 and put them into an HM700 body. Why oh why didn't JVC go with 1/2" chips?

A JVC Salesman said to me, we build with 1/3", the greater cameras with greater chips will be build by Panasonic and Sony, so we don`t want to participate on the cake.

Exactly. JVC is a small company, and they are very smart to establish an individual niche for themselves. Having a broadcast/EFP form factor camera that is this compact and cheap is part of that charm. They now have a nice selection of glass and accessories for this line that aren't replaced easily. The EX3/EX1 get 1/2" chips by sacrificing the pro-layout.

JVC going to 1/2" chips in this form factor would mean a much more expensive, and larger camera, putting it into difficult direct competition with strong cameras from the established pro brands.

In the end, the chip size argument isn't as meaningful for most end users as actual results.
Limiting D.O.F. is not always a positive thing. Light sensitivity isn't as big a factor as it was. Both of these are factors which may be addressed in the future by other technologies. Certainly, the comparitive overall camera size, and cost of lenses are attractive features of a smaller chip size, and these I don't see being changed with technological solutions.

Sorry, I don't buy it. The Sony EX1 and EX3 are both 1/2" chip cameras, and neither is much larger, nor much more expensive, than an HM700. You can't convince me that it it's physically -- or economically -- impossible to put a 1/2" chip in a ProHD form-factor, especially once you replace the bulky tape drive mechanism with a smaller SD card writer. To say nothing of what the DSLR manufacturers are cramming into an even smaller package, and at a price that's less than one-fifth the price of an HM700.

I'm not suggesting that JVC put out a PDW-700 killer (although they have competed in this market in the past). But 1/2" chips in a ProHD chassis would make the JVC models extremely attractive compared to the EX3 (due to better ergonomics and standard lens mount) or the Panasonic HPX300 (due to bigger chips and cheaper recording media).

If JVC has decided not to compete more strongly against Sony and Panasonic, then that's a shame for the consumer. As it is, the HM700 looks like a deliberate compromise. It's still an attractive option, but may or may not meet my creative needs (very wide field of view, ability to play with DOF, and low-light capability).

If you want to use a half inch ccd's, the current form factor will not allow adequate cooling of the CCD,s according to comments that I have read (could have been on this forum )(the split screen issues encountered by the hd series were in part due to heat problems due to the close fit inside the camera). It appears that CMOS runs cooler therefore you can run bigger chips. The very significant IR contamination issues that the EX series is encountering, not to mention the problems with rolling shutter are significant detractions for that series. However, the trade off between the resolution manifested in the very nice picturess that the EX series can produce, and the form factor and the less problematic sensors of the HD/hm series make a choice between the HM 700 and the EX series quite difficult.I am about to make this choice soon and I am not at all clear which way I will jump.

It's difficult, at first I want an EX3, but now I ordered
an HM700E14, its better on shoulder,
Lowlightperformance is the other hand, but Tim and Phil shot
nice pictures with this cam, so my choice for the HM700.

Sony is the only mfg putting 1/2" chips (of any type) in a sub $10k camera, aren't they? If JVC put 1/2" chips in a shoulder-mount camera with inter-changeable lens system, somewhat similar to an HD700 (and at a price under $10k) the only real competition would be Sony's EX3. If the chips were CCDs it would be something of a niche market. Even if they went with CMOS, maybe it wouldn't be a niche market, but it's not a crowded market either.

Depends if you're counting the likes of the Canon 5dmkII.

Steve

That's a whole different animal.

Take a Canon 5D on your shoulder, that's really different.

Thank you for all your input. But if we could leave the discussion about CCDs vs CMOS and chip size, that would be nice. They obviously both have their advantages, but I personally prefer to use or test my equipment under various conditions and see how they hold up, regardless of what the specifications say and chip sizes are.

As I said I liked the EX3, but I did put some strain on my back, actually making me glad when the shoot was over.

So if you really think about it, would you rather have a 1/2 chip camera and a sore back, or would you prefer a 1/3 chip camera and perhaps not a sore back, that would still make you a decent income?

Has anyone done any live world comparisons between them?

There are several 3rd party rigs to turn the EX3 in to a comfortable shoulder camera.

From footage posted so far, the lowlight performance on the 700 is some of the worst I've seen on any camera made during the last 18 months.

On the other hand if you have to get an IR filter for the EX3 you lose at least 1/2 stop, which narrows the DR gap between the two.

At least for feature work, you can control the lighting, but not so much for run and gun news gathering. Tough call.

After some tests I ran at my Church, I would actually take the HPX300 for eng work over the HM700. Not 1080x24p stuff, but 1080x60i or 720x60p that camera rocks. (or 50i/50p....), but even on that camera, the performance is tied into the kit lens.

The EX3 kit lens is wider and you would have access to all the HD CAM 1/2" lenses out there.

As I want to shoot Wildlife and unlikely I'll ever be doing it professionally, or making films for broadcast, I reckon I'll be going for the HM700 for the extra reach I'll get with a factor of x7.2 - plus the cost of body only is quite reasonable.

It has been a while since this thread was active, but here I go.

I bought an EX3 because of the 1/2 inch chip size and picture quality. After doing so, I since had the opportunity to test an HM700, but with the stock 16x lens.

The images were not quite up there with the EX3, but overall feel and build and actually it`s lowlight capability, not a bad camera at all. Guess what, I really liked the camera.

The EX3 produces beautiful images. But I feel somewhat restricted to using it just on a tripod beacuse of it`s heavy front. When I have to use it handheld I am struggling more over a long period of time. I do a lot of documentary stuff, where there is no time to set up the camera. So this has made me think. I want a shouldermounted camera, having made me looking at various options for doing so. I have been in touch with DM- accessories and looked into the Protech shouldermount as well. But I am torned between spending money on such kind of accessories or sell my camera and just buy a shouldermounted cam.

So I tested the HPX301. Wonderful camera, excellent on the shoulder, broadcast quality and professional features. Good in lowlight as well, but then I`d have to buy into the P2 workflow, consuming more harddrive space as well. And I still liked the images from the EX3 better.

So I am back to the camera that has impressed me the most, between the 3. And that is looking at the total package and workflow and accessories available witout buying adapters, converters, batteryplates, D. taps for lights and so on.

The HM700. It has the complete package at a reasonable price and offers so much. It is shouldermounted, does not have to spend my money there. It has a D- tap for lights, does not have to buy a light with separate battery and it mounts on professional tripodplates as well. The EX3 does not. I find that my EX3 is somewhat unstable on my tripod.

Still, what would you do? Would you keep the EX3 and upgrade it with a shouldermount, batteryplate and so on, or sell it, to buy the HM700 and spend the money on better tripods, microphones etc.

I honestly don`t know what to do. I have been thinking about it for a while and can`t decide. I also have to say, that I am going to Africa in 45 days and will do a lot of handheld shots, travelling fast, with no time to setup properly. I will be filming a desert rally.

Thansk for any input on this matter.

Svein Rune

I would sell the EX3 and buy the HM700

Eric, you have the HM700 right?

Are you happy with? How do you find it holds up? Any disadvantages you have discovered?
I saw on your previous post, that you have gone through the same choice. May I ask why you ended up with the JVC?

I'm getting two...
 

To see the images, I defer to Phil Bloom's outstanding review...

Review of JVC GY-HM 700 By Philip Bloom On ExposureRoom

After watching it I was intrigued enough to demo a JVC 700 for a day and I was very impressed by the performance. It has the best form factor out there of any comparably priced camera, including the HPX 300. Why? Well, unlike the 300, the GY-HM700 is a mid-sized shoulder mount camera, not a full-sized like the 300. It's well balanced, lighter and doesn't leave you with a sore shoulder at the end of the day.

To me the awkward ergonomics of the ex3 and the format knocked it out of contention early on. I loved the image, but do I have to suffer to get it?

Also, remember that with the GY-HM700 you can also shoot mp4 to either SXS OR the SDHC cards, for those jobs that require a format other than .mov.

I'm taking delivery on a 700 this week, then a second the following week AND we already have a GY-HM100 (whcih we love) for those tight spots. I'll post some video when things calm down a bit.

I like the formfactor of the HM700, but the
EX3 got rollingshutter and isn't a shoulder cam.

One thing for the HM700, is the recording
on SDHC-cards, I can carry them in a Kata BP502
backbag with all my equipment.
The LCD-Display is really great and sharper
then on HPX300/301.
I can record in .mov and edit it native without
transcoding, the resolution is much bettet then
the HPX301, the colourresolution is better then
HDV and quite good as the AVC-Intra from the Hpx301.

There are a lot more things that speaks for
the HM700.

I had a look at the review from Pil Bloom. Thanks for the link. The images looked really good and crisp.

What about the ND- filters. Do you find them limiting? Tim Dashwood writes in his review that they may be insufficient if you are to film in the desert or snow. Would I need a mattebox as well?

Nd?
 

Well, I live and work in Florida, so if there's a need for more ND, I'll find out pretty quickly. Worst case scenario is you buy a screw mount ND filter and drop it in when needed. That, or buy a matte box...

I'll check it out next week when our first camera gets delivered and post my findings here.

In some cases you need more ND, but when I got not enough ND I used to shorten the shutter for one scene.

Sounds to me like you should just get the JVC. Your posts subtly tell me that you are probably going to be most happy with that camera.

It seems to fulfill your criteria best. Just as some people will choose other cameras for whatever reasons (I currently have the Canon XL H1s and love it... I returned the EX1 because of form factor), you should go with whatver fulfills your needs the most.

Thanks for your inputs once again.

Mike, I actually think you are right. Problem is, I really like the picture quality of the EX3, but not the formfactor and the aforementioned.

Lou, I`d appreciate it if you would post your findings. I spoke to JVC yesterday, and he said the exact same thing. If you find teh NDs insufficient, there is always the possibilty of adding an ND- filter.

I also asked him which lens he would recommend, and he said that the optics in the 14X Canon were the best, for this price range.

Interestingly enough, JVC had never gotten a clear answer from Fujinon, whether their 16x and 17x lenses, were infact "true" HD- lenses. He said someone once mentioned that they were HDV- resolution only. But no deffinate answer. The 13X however is supposed to be a real good performer.

the 13x Fujinon is really good for HD.

Here's a question - I currently have an HPX500, which I really like (I love the P2 cards BTW)... I shoot documentaries almost exclusively handheld, and I'm 65...

My right eye has been getting worse and last week my eye doc recommended using my left eye at the finder instead of my right until I can get surgery (6 months to a year for reasons I won't go into) - a difficult proposition w/ the 500, but not impossible...

How would the 700 be with left eye use? (I don't use LCDs much).. How adjustable is the finder?

Hi Steve, do you use the standard viewfinder on the HPX500.

The new viewfinder on the HM700 is really sharp, but the sharpest is the lcd-screen,
in some situations is it helpful to use the lcd-screen with the focus-assist.